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Looking for long range tank busters, AV13+ to support fast moving Melta units.

Typhoons are cheap and mobile but I have doubts about S8 AP3 against heavy armor.

Talons, with TLLC have good firepower but don't start on the board.

Tri-Las Predators provide good S and AP but I worry about the effectiveness of their side sponsons, both shooting from cover and moving.

If you have fast moving melta... why are you worried about long range tank power?

Of those 3 units tho talons are going to be your best bet, just because of their speed, durability, and 360 arc AC.

Having said that tho, talons shouldnt really be going after heavy tanks, the ideal loadout for them still remains the skyhammer/AC loadout which is great vs av12 and lower vehicles (aka: flyers and transports) and most infantry/MCs

So while I would go talons because they would perfectly complement fast moving melta, I wouldnt do it for the reasons you need.

also get at least 2, 3 is ideal but not always doable depending on how many slots you have left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if you have a twin link source (inquisitor, coteaz, tiggy, etc) devastators are broadly speaking more useful than predators because you also have a chance to roll ignores cover.

If you want long range AV fire to deal with hard targets, lascannons are really your only option.

Talons are not what I’d consider long range. You want to be able to lay the TLAsC on your target, and that means keeping it close. They, and the typhoons, are better served as multi-role hunters, focusing on medium armor or other targets of opportunity.

But as was mentioned, if you have fast melta, why are you worried? If you want multiple threats to hit knights ion shields in different sides, then I could see the point. But then the typhoons might be able to move to the flank to shoot at AV12 sides, which S8 should do better against.

As with all things marine, what does the rest of your list look like, what gaps do you need covered, and what do you think looks cool?

sicaran tank if you are using FW. Simply the best tank marines have access to with 6 TL rending autocannon shots that cannot have jink saves taken against them. On a AV13 all-around platform. Even takes down WS quickly and is largely immune to them in return.

Otherwise, go 2x las/AC pred. The TL las turret is too expensive. Talons are nice, but dont break tanks well. Missiles are bad vs most vehicles and only viable as SW or with Helios turrets.

I wanted a long range tank buster because my fast moving Melta is limited to a pair of MM Speeders. They are good but not likely to kill multiple targets, so I want a back up option.

Marines really dont do long range AT very well. I would suggest you take maybe 1 Pred and 2x vindicators for AT. S10 AP2 Ord is about as good as you can get, and 24" is a decent range. Accuracy is actually quite good on larger vehicles, and it can double as an anti-anything weapon. Taking 2 means that 1 almost always gets a chance to shoot, and 1 shot usually does enough damage.

i would say predators, though ive had luck with my TL talon

I personally think the Vindicator, even BA ones, are losers in the current meta. I go for the versatility of the talon taking side shots on tanks and downing fliers. For the tough stuff, use melta.

Martel732 wrote:
I personally think the Vindicator, even BA ones, are losers in the current meta. I go for the versatility of the talon taking side shots on tanks and downing fliers. For the tough stuff, use melta.

Everytime I consider a Vindicator, I ask myself "why not ally in a Demolisher?"

As for the other choices, are people really that confident in melta or other close range weapons to handle heavy armor? That you leave Lascannons behind?

If you're playing imperial fists devastators with lascannons are worth their weight in gold. Predators are good and tend to be low on your opponents priority target list. The talon is more of an air superiority fighter IMHO. Have you considered a storm raven?

Everytime I consider a Vindicator, I ask myself "why not ally in a Demolisher?"

As for the other choices, are people really that confident in melta or other close range weapons to handle heavy armor? That you leave Lascannons behind?

It all depends on who you run your list. If you're a close range get in your opponents face list then yeah go for it, but if you're a sit back and shoot list then lascannons are a better bet.

I like the Tri-Las Predator myself, I've had a lot of success with it especially when it is paired with my Storm Raven....something is getting popped each turn unless my dice have failed me, which of course happens.

 minigun762 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally think the Vindicator, even BA ones, are losers in the current meta. I go for the versatility of the talon taking side shots on tanks and downing fliers. For the tough stuff, use melta.

Everytime I consider a Vindicator, I ask myself "why not ally in a Demolisher?"

As for the other choices, are people really that confident in melta or other close range weapons to handle heavy armor? That you leave Lascannons behind?

Marines have several methods of getting in close with meltas (outflank, drop pods, deep strike, fast land speeders) that can allow shots on side (sometimes even rear) armor.

Long ranged anti-tank runs into issues such as LOS, and almost always having to hit front armor. On top of this its value decreases once night fight goes into effect.

That being said, consider your chapter tactics and what it does for your platforms. As mentioned, IF tactics might find some lascannon platforms more useful

 minigun762 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally think the Vindicator, even BA ones, are losers in the current meta. I go for the versatility of the talon taking side shots on tanks and downing fliers. For the tough stuff, use melta.

Everytime I consider a Vindicator, I ask myself "why not ally in a Demolisher?"

Because you wasting points on 2 IG squads just for -1 BS and +1 FA, while costing more than one vindicator. Considering the infamy of the Demolisher cannon, no matter if its on a LR or Rhino it will be dead very quickly if you don't take 2. Plus vindis can benefit from some chapter tactics, specifically IH.

 zephoid wrote:
sicaran tank if you are using FW. Simply the best tank marines have access to with 6 TL rending autocannon shots that cannot have jink saves taken against them. On a AV13 all-around platform. Even takes down WS quickly and is largely immune to them in return.

I second this. However note that the FAQ changed the armour of the tanks to 13/12/12, so they are not as immune to WS spam as they once were.

Looking for long range tank busters, AV13+ to support fast moving Melta units.

Typhoons are cheap and mobile but I have doubts about S8 AP3 against heavy armor.

Talons, with TLLC have good firepower but don't start on the board.

Tri-Las Predators provide good S and AP but I worry about the effectiveness of their side sponsons, both shooting from cover and moving.

whats up with a couple attack bikes armed with melta's supported by bikes

great tank busters, always works for me

 minigun762 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally think the Vindicator, even BA ones, are losers in the current meta. I go for the versatility of the talon taking side shots on tanks and downing fliers. For the tough stuff, use melta.

Everytime I consider a Vindicator, I ask myself "why not ally in a Demolisher?"

As for the other choices, are people really that confident in melta or other close range weapons to handle heavy armor? That you leave Lascannons behind?

I actually like lascannons, but I don't like most of the platforms they come on. Non-fast preds can be frustrating to play with. And devs? LOL

Martel732 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I personally think the Vindicator, even BA ones, are losers in the current meta. I go for the versatility of the talon taking side shots on tanks and downing fliers. For the tough stuff, use melta.

Everytime I consider a Vindicator, I ask myself "why not ally in a Demolisher?"

As for the other choices, are people really that confident in melta or other close range weapons to handle heavy armor? That you leave Lascannons behind?

What about the flyers, Talons or Ravens?

I actually like lascannons, but I don't like most of the platforms they come on. Non-fast preds can be frustrating to play with. And devs? LOL

I'm with minigun on this. Ravens compliment double MM landspeeders nicely. Yea, they are a notable points investment, but between the rear AV12, the TL/MM, TL/LC and the 4, 72" 8/2 missiles they can make pretty solid tank killers. If the Raven isn't an option, I'm actually going to say go with the tri las predator because

A. It can move and shoot. Devs can't.
B. There may or may not be decent cover for the devestators.
C. These days (in my area at least) there isn't much shooting on the table higher than str 8. Watch your facings and AV13 shouldbe adequate aside the odd lance/Death Ray/railgun
D. Even though las centurions are my preferred slow/backfield AT, you can get two tri las preds for the cost of a tooled out centurion squad.

People speak highly of TML Speeders but how useful are they on Talons?
Substantial point increase so it would have to be a significant boost.

Biggest bonus I see is it's a truly flexible weapin.

Its really not a very big improvement. You lose one shot and12" of range for +1 str and the ability to fire frag missiles at ground targets. Not worth 25 points in my book.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Its really not a very big improvement. You lose one shot and12" of range for +1 str and the ability to fire frag missiles at ground targets. Not worth 25 points in my book.

I was trying to weigh the value of AP3. Useful for knocking out bikers or wounding Wraith constructs.

I'm kinda curious as to why, if you're running a squadron of MM Speeders to kill tanks already and are worried they won't get to enough tanks, that you don't just run a second squadron of MM Speeders instead of thinking TML Speeders.

You can run the two MM speeder squadrons after different targets or have them converge on a single tough target. They are much cheaper, very effective and can get around the board fast enough to offset the short range of a MM.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm kinda curious as to why, if you're running a squadron of MM Speeders to kill tanks already and are worried they won't get to enough tanks, that you don't just run a second squadron of MM Speeders instead of thinking TML Speeders.

You can run the two MM speeder squadrons after different targets or have them converge on a single tough target. They are much cheaper, very effective and can get around the board fast enough to offset the short range of a MM.

Two is one, and one is none.

Its a good philosophy to work with if you have the points for a secondary or even a tertiary AT unit. And squadrons can't split fire. Against heavy armor players I usually run two double MM speeders seperately, backed up by a MM/LC Raven and some LC devs if I have room. If not give everyone and his little brother meltabombs. When dealing with a superheavy i back the speeders up with melta sternguard

How do you know you are taking on heavy armor ahead of time? And what do you run against an unknown foe?

I play at a club where most everyone is familiar with each others armies. The two tank crazy IG players will usually bring a superheavy (either a shadowsword, baneblade or doomhammer (?) So if I'm playing one of them I bring as much melta as possible.

Don't you think that's a bit unfair? What if you had a pool of opponents a drew them randomly?

Not unfair IMO. They know I'm almost certainly going to be bringing CC oriented scars with skimmer/flyer/pod support so they build to take me on in the same fashion. If I were playing folks at random I'd bring the melta sternguard, double melta speeders. The combination of the two can handle pretty much any armor. Especially when there is an AT/anti TEQ Raven overhead.

In otherwords Id run my usual list. Our games are usually 1750-1850 so I've got room for a decent TAC list (within reason i.e. if.a newboot shows up with taudar im hosed lol).

Just curious. I find people who know what they are playing ahead of time have a very skewed view of the game generally speaking.

I can never squeeze in enough dedicated AT into my TAC lists because of trying to also prep for Taudar shenanigans.

Fair enough. I know my enviornment probably isn't the norm, but I'm quite grateful for that actually. I literally can't remember the last time I got nerd rage or someone acted the fool.

If I did bump into a new taudar/flying circus I'd give it a go. If it really turned out to be as bad as purported, I'd just hope I got tabled so I could get a second game in. Death by 1000 cuts is never fun...


OP: Sorry about the thread hijack. Back to discussing Marine anti armor...

It's really hard in a TAC list. Stormtalons rely on side shots, but against Leman Russ or Wave Serpent, they suffer. Melta is forced to get close, which is usually fatal.