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Not to mention a Serpents Shield laser locked will probably take the talon down in two turns or less. I have yet to find a good way to deal with WS when their shield is active. Luckily our other two eldar players have sorta forgotten that its PRIMARY function is protecting the vehicle and its occupants. I guess maybe an Aegis Quad gun, a stalker and lots of grav?

Sadly you're right about the survivability of melta units. Thats why I try to have three or more when I can and I try to keep em as cheap as possible (not squadroning the landspeeders, only taking just enough melta sternguard, naked dread in the pod in the rare occasions I add that in too, etc) Even with a pseudo-minimalist approach, that much melta in an alpha or beta strike, backed up by a few lascannons tends to make a helluva mess.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm kinda curious as to why, if you're running a squadron of MM Speeders to kill tanks already and are worried they won't get to enough tanks, that you don't just run a second squadron of MM Speeders instead of thinking TML Speeders.

You can run the two MM speeder squadrons after different targets or have them converge on a single tough target. They are much cheaper, very effective and can get around the board fast enough to offset the short range of a MM.

Hmmm, that's honestly a very fair question to ask.
I don't know, I guess I'm worried that I need the extra range, that the MM are too suicidal maybe?

I'm with Nevelon that it depends on your style

Your MM speeders either should be backed with the rest of your list in the face, ie bikes or pods, or treated like cruise missiles .

I have found in the past holding back MM speeders for a deepstrike severely impairs some opponents deployment which you can then exploit with your manoeuvre

Back on topic, what's not to love about a triple lascannon pred with HK!

Sorry second edit, also consider TLLC or lasplas razors. You get mobility for troops, small arms protection and good fire. Sure first blood, easy to kill etc, but put on dozer blades and deploy behind buffed terrain.

I'm really considering just splurging on a Raven. Much more expensive but brings a lot of the firepower I'm looking for.

SRs in practice are frequently very disappointing, since they are not nearly as efficient as the other often-used fliers.

Martel732 wrote:
SRs in practice are frequently very disappointing, since they are not nearly as efficient as the other often-used fliers.

Really?
I tend to hear only good things about them. I've never been s fan because 200+ points isn't cheap and I don't trust them as transports.

I may be crazy, but Land Raider anyone ?

Fits the requirements.

 minigun762 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
SRs in practice are frequently very disappointing, since they are not nearly as efficient as the other often-used fliers.

Really?
I tend to hear only good things about them. I've never been s fan because 200+ points isn't cheap and I don't trust them as transports.

That's because many people are rather delusional about the reality of the Stormraven. The thing is 66.7 pts/HP. No daemon save. No IWND. This means that practically any kind of AA is cost effective against them. They don't get as many effective firing turns as a Helldrake, but cost more. Their transport capability is useless, save for grav cents/grav chute insertion.

The GK Stormraven is the best of the lot, and even it is easy to shoot down for what it costs.

Honestly, as long as you aren't trying to dogfight vendettas or crimson hunters I'd be more than comfortable taking one.. Tau will laugh at it, but the same can be said for any flyer in the game. If you're using them as an anti armor gunship I would advise in favor of it as it can bounce Str 7 with relative ease and that's what most AA threats consist of.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Honestly, as long as you aren't trying to dogfight vendettas or crimson hunters. Tau will laugh at it, but the same can be said for any flyer in the game. If you're using them as an anti armor gunship I would advise in favor of it as it can bounce Str 7 with relative ease and that's what most AA threats consist of.

No, STR 7 works on SR just fine. I do it all the time with Stormtalons. You roll three 5+ and you HP it out. Easy peasy. They die WAY too easy for their points. I've done it to other marine players time and again. Like the guy laughing at my prescienced MM attack bikes. "I'm immune to melta lol". I replied, "But you're not immune to AP 1". He didn't die that turn, but the turn after he did die to the bikes.

SRs are fragile junk, and only gain durability when you overload AA by spamming them. And then you have a gimmick list.

I am a huge supporter of the Stormraven as it's a mainstay in my lists. It has been taken out very rarely in the games I have played and it has weathered it's fair share of shots. It's kill list is quite impressive from multiple land raiders to Daemon Princes. This may be one of those situations where YMMV.

I've taken to putting a 5 man scout squad in it and using them to deep strike using the SR's locator beacon for late game objective grabs. It's handy for what it does but I feel it's primary use as is a tank hunter. TLMM and TLAC with the 4 Hellstrike missiles can ruin somebody's day. It's armor 12 all around with ceramite plating so it negates melta, it's not that easy to consistently roll 5's and 6's not everybody's dice is that hot. Plus all of the weapons are twin linked so jinking isn't such a punishment. POTMS is a major boon as well especially against multiple light vehicles. But that's just my personal experience, I love mine.

Martel732 wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Honestly, as long as you aren't trying to dogfight vendettas or crimson hunters. Tau will laugh at it, but the same can be said for any flyer in the game. If you're using them as an anti armor gunship I would advise in favor of it as it can bounce Str 7 with relative ease and that's what most AA threats consist of.

No, STR 7 works on SR just fine. I do it all the time with Stormtalons. You roll three 5+ and you HP it out. Easy peasy. They die WAY too easy for their points. I've done it to other marine players time and again. Like the guy laughing at my prescienced MM attack bikes. "I'm immune to melta lol". I replied, "But you're not immune to AP 1". He didn't die that turn, but the turn after he did die to the bikes.

SRs are fragile junk, and only gain durability when you overload AA by spamming them. And then you have a gimmick list.

If SR is a "fragile piece of junk" then how is the Vendetta the most survivable flyer in the game when it has the exact some stats: AV12 and 3 HPs?

 ace101 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Honestly, as long as you aren't trying to dogfight vendettas or crimson hunters. Tau will laugh at it, but the same can be said for any flyer in the game. If you're using them as an anti armor gunship I would advise in favor of it as it can bounce Str 7 with relative ease and that's what most AA threats consist of.

No, STR 7 works on SR just fine. I do it all the time with Stormtalons. You roll three 5+ and you HP it out. Easy peasy. They die WAY too easy for their points. I've done it to other marine players time and again. Like the guy laughing at my prescienced MM attack bikes. "I'm immune to melta lol". I replied, "But you're not immune to AP 1". He didn't die that turn, but the turn after he did die to the bikes.

SRs are fragile junk, and only gain durability when you overload AA by spamming them. And then you have a gimmick list.

If SR is a "fragile piece of junk" then how is the Vendetta the most survivable flyer in the game when it has the exact some stats: AV12 and 3 HPs?

Because the Vendetta is only 43.3 pts/HP, not much more than a dreadnought. That's how. It costs about as much as a marine dreadnought but has an extra lascannon and flies and carries plasma vets.

In fairness the Vendetta also has superior range, so it can stand off and engage..

That said, it's likely to get adjusted once the new codex is out.

Going back to the Predator, how often can you hit targets with the sponson lascannons between limited fire arc and blockin terrain?

 minigun762 wrote:
In fairness the Vendetta also has superior range, so it can stand off and engage..

That said, it's likely to get adjusted once the new codex is out.

Going back to the Predator, how often can you hit targets with the sponson lascannons between limited fire arc and blockin terrain?

One of them usually, two of them rarely. Unless you are fast, but that means BA. After playing many games as counts-as C:SM, I find that I really don't like non-fast predators that much. I think one of the marines' biggest failings is crappy platforms for heavy weapons.

I find the sponson-mounted lascannons really tough to use. line of sight is easily blocked by things like ruins and aegis lines, so even if both sponson guns are facing your target you probably can't shoot them at all unless you're out in the open. I rarely use my predator as a result :(

 varl wrote:
I find the sponson-mounted lascannons really tough to use. line of sight is easily blocked by things like ruins and aegis lines, so even if both sponson guns are facing your target you probably can't shoot them at all unless you're out in the open. I rarely use my predator as a result :(

They are much better if you can move 6" every turn to get around obstacles.

Martel732 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
In fairness the Vendetta also has superior range, so it can stand off and engage..

That said, it's likely to get adjusted once the new codex is out.

Going back to the Predator, how often can you hit targets with the sponson lascannons between limited fire arc and blockin terrain?

One of them usually, two of them rarely. Unless you are fast, but that means BA. After playing many games as counts-as C:SM, I find that I really don't like non-fast predators that much. I think one of the marines' biggest failings is crappy platforms for heavy weapons.

You are confirming my assumption.
So is the workaround to forego heavy weapons and focus on short range and mobility?

Maybe. A Tiggy star is one way to field lascannons/MLs that is pretty brutal.

I generally don't have that many issues with getting shots from either devs or preds. It's all about positioning. Preds go in corners where they have good firelanes, Devs go in elevated ruins where they have a good view of most of the battlefield.

I love Talons but to me their primary purpose is to shoot down other flyers/FMCs. Once that's done, if they are still alive then great, they can engage ground targets.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

I love Talons but to me their primary purpose is to shoot down other flyers/FMCs. Once that's done, if they are still alive then great, they can engage ground targets.

That makes sense but it seems to waste their strafing run bonus.

 minigun762 wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

I love Talons but to me their primary purpose is to shoot down other flyers/FMCs. Once that's done, if they are still alive then great, they can engage ground targets.

That makes sense but it seems to waste their strafing run bonus.

There are plenty of things we have to shoot at ground targets, very few for air. And while the AA tanks are inexpensive, they eat HS slots and have problems with ground targets. I’d still take my talon, even if it didn’t have strafing run. The fact that it does is just gravy, and makes up for the fact that on a per gun basis, it’s a little pricy.

In a TAC you need some sort of AA. If you don’t need to use it to down flyers, it doubles well for killing medium armor. Talons excel in this role.