Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
DR - You have not answered my question.

The IC rule covers this.

Ok, so there is no specific rule that tells me that it can happen? I have to infer it from the fact that the captain is an IC?

There is a rule that tells you that an IC can join another unit...

The base IC rule covers it explicitly.

Ok, but you have no rule that *specifically* says that a space marine captain can join a unit of marines (specifically).

The IC rules tell us that any model with the IC rule can join any unit (With exceptions). Therefore we have permission for a space marine captain to join a unit of tactical marines.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
DR - You have not answered my question.

The IC rule covers this.

Ok, so there is no specific rule that tells me that it can happen? I have to infer it from the fact that the captain is an IC?

There is a rule that tells you that an IC can join another unit...

The base IC rule covers it explicitly.

Ok, but you have no rule that *specifically* says that a space marine captain can join a unit of marines (specifically).

The IC rules tell us that any model with the IC rule can join any unit (With exceptions). Therefore we have permission for a space marine captain to join a unit of tactical marines.

Ok, so why is this lack of *specific* permission ok here, but not with the possessed?

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Ok, so why is this lack of *specific* permission ok here, but not with the possessed?

Because we have permission for an IC to join a unit. This includes a space marine captain (Which has the IC rule) to join a unit of tactical marines (Which are a unit). The rules specifically allow an IC to join a unit.

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

Here is what a transport is allowed to carry, a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters. It is not allowed to carry anything else, unless there is a rule stating it can carry something else (Like the Stormraven being allowed to carry Jump Infantry and a single Dreadnought).

Where is the allowance for beasts to be carried? Citation needed. Please underscore the rule if you find it because It either does not exist or I missed where it allows beasts to be carried.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Ok, so why is this lack of *specific* permission ok here, but not with the possessed?

Because we have permission for an IC to join a unit. This includes a space marine captain (Which has the IC rule) to join a unit of tactical marines (Which are a unit). The rules specifically allow an IC to join a unit.

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

Here is what a transport is allowed to carry, a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters. It is not allowed to carry anything else, unless there is a rule stating it can carry something else (Like the Stormraven being allowed to carry Jump Infantry and a single Dreadnought).

Where is the allowance for beasts to be carried? Citation needed. Please underscore the rule if you find it because It either does not exist or I missed where it allows beasts to be carried.

Ok clearly you aren't getting where I'm coming from... I'll change my angle of approach somewhat. Ok let's say the captain joins the unit, then suddenly loses the IC rule. He stays as part of the unit, right? Same situation here.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Ok clearly you aren't getting where I'm coming from... I'll change my angle of approach somewhat. Ok let's say the captain joins the unit, then suddenly loses the IC rule. He stays as part of the unit, right? Same situation here.

There is no situation where this could happen, and as such is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

We have no way of knowing if a captain that suddenly loses the IC rule stays with the unit or not, because there is no way to lose the IC rule on a captain and as such the rules do not cover it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Ok clearly you aren't getting where I'm coming from... I'll change my angle of approach somewhat. Ok let's say the captain joins the unit, then suddenly loses the IC rule. He stays as part of the unit, right? Same situation here.

There is no situation where this could happen, and as such is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

We have no way of knowing if a captain that suddenly loses the IC rule stays with the unit or not, because there is no way to lose the IC rule on a captain and as such the rules do not cover it.

What about Hive Tyrants joining Tyrant Guard? They can join as if they have the IC special rule. So they do not have the IC rule, join as if they do, and are part of the unit without it.

It's like if you follow the rules and they lead you to a specific state, that state is legal and does not have to be specifically permitted.

ID weapons don't cause unsaved wounds, they cause hits so they can't ID anything! Oh wait, those hits turn into wounds and then into unsaved wounds so they cause unsaved wounds even if that's not directly stated...

@Tactical Genius, DR is not going ever admit he's wrong. You can lead him to water but you can't make him drink.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Ok clearly you aren't getting where I'm coming from... I'll change my angle of approach somewhat. Ok let's say the captain joins the unit, then suddenly loses the IC rule. He stays as part of the unit, right? Same situation here.

There is no situation where this could happen, and as such is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

We have no way of knowing if a captain that suddenly loses the IC rule stays with the unit or not, because there is no way to lose the IC rule on a captain and as such the rules do not cover it.

What about Hive Tyrants joining Tyrant Guard? They can join as if they have the IC special rule. So they do not have the IC rule, join as if they do, and are part of the unit without it.

As it is an illegal state you must place the Hive Tyrant within 3" of the Tyrant Guard using the CoC rules. No rule says that a Hive Tyrant can stay joined to a unit as he has lost the IC status upon joining it is now an illegal state. That last part doesn't add anything to the conversation--please keep it objective.---AgeOfEgos

If a character joins a unit, and loses the ability to be with that unit, what rule states he must be expelled from that unit?

 FlingitNow wrote:


As it is an illegal state you must place the Hive Tyrant within 3" of the Tyrant Guard using the CoC rules. No rule says that a Hive Tyrant can stay joined to a unit as he has lost the IC status upon joining it is now an illegal state. I'm now going to put my hands over my ears and repeat "la la la la illegal state" until everyone gives up arguing with me.

LOL^^^

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Ok clearly you aren't getting where I'm coming from... I'll change my angle of approach somewhat. Ok let's say the captain joins the unit, then suddenly loses the IC rule. He stays as part of the unit, right? Same situation here.

There is no situation where this could happen, and as such is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

We have no way of knowing if a captain that suddenly loses the IC rule stays with the unit or not, because there is no way to lose the IC rule on a captain and as such the rules do not cover it.

What about Hive Tyrants joining Tyrant Guard? They can join as if they have the IC special rule. So they do not have the IC rule, join as if they do, and are part of the unit without it.

The HT is given a rule that he can join the guard as if he had the IC rule.

So the rules cover this situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
@Tactical Genius, DR is not going ever admit he's wrong. You can lead him to water but you can't make him drink.

That is because I am not wrong.

Beasts can not be carried by a transport.

There is not any rules stating they can be carried by a transport.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
@Tactical Genius, DR is not going ever admit he's wrong. You can lead him to water but you can't make him drink.

That is because I am not wrong.

Beasts can not be carried by a transport.

There is not any rules stating they can be carried by a transport.

n. case in point
A relevant illustrative example.

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

Here is what a transport is allowed to carry, a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters. It is not allowed to carry anything else, unless there is a rule stating it can carry something else (Like the Stormraven being allowed to carry Jump Infantry and a single Dreadnought).

Where is the allowance for beasts to be carried? Citation needed. Please underscore the rule if you find it because It either does not exist or I missed where it allows beasts to be carried.

Are you suggesting that when they turn into beasts while inside a transport, the game "freezes" because there is no rule for what happens?

Or are you suggesting to house rule it that they are automatically disembarked when they turn into beast?

DR - so capacity is not linked to what you can carry?

Odd, thats exactly what it means. You have a capacity of X models that you cannot exceed. Is the possessed unit in excess of this capacity? Citation please, and underline it.

The GENERAL PERMISSION to be on board is allowed. You keep making your unsupoported connection between a PERMISSION sentence and one acting to RESTRICT INFANTRY and pretend it is real.

General permission has been granted to fill up a transport to its capacity in models. I have done so. You cannot find a rule restricting this - just a made up context argument proven false - so your concession is accepted

Your argument is invalid, possessed as Beasts can remain embarked RAW.

The HT is given a rule that he can join the guard as if he had the ICrule. 

So the rules cover this situation.

And the transport rules allow the unit to embark so the rules cover that situation too. So please show permission for the Hive Tyrant to be part of the unit. Underline it as I must be missing it or it doesn't exist. As you claim permission to embark is not permission to be embarked then permission to join is not permission to be joined...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The GENERAL PERMISSION to be on board is allowed.

This is 100% false.

There are no rules at all that allow beasts to be carried.

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

This is what a transport is allowed to carry. Beasts are not on that list...

The transport can carry Infantry up to the transports capacity. What rule allows beasts to be carried?

 DeathReaper wrote:
"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

Here is what a transport is allowed to carry, a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters.

Technically speaking that is a a restriction on the number of infantry units and independent characters that may be used to fill the transports capacity and cannot be used as a definition of transport capacity because it refers to said transport capacity.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is not allowed to carry anything else, unless there is a rule stating it can carry something else (Like the Stormraven being allowed to carry Jump Infantry and a single Dreadnought).

Where is the allowance for beasts to be carried? Citation needed. Please underscore the rule if you find it because It either does not exist or I missed where it allows beasts to be carried.

The transport capacity of a vehicle is a characteristic listed as part of the vehicles profile. You'll notice the transport capacity can very from vehicle to vehicle. The two involved in this discussion are..

Transport Capacity: Ten models. Chaos Rhinos cannot
carry models with the Bulky, Very Bulky or Extremely Bulky
special rules.

Transport Capacity: Ten models.

In the case of the transformed possessed they are still covered by these two descriptions. That is the permission to carry beasts in your chaos transport.

The rules that prevent you from loading anything onto a transport are the embarking and deployment rules. Those rules state units deploying in transports must be embarked and only allow infantry units to embark unless stated otherwise. Beats may not embark on a chaos transport but a unit that embarks as infantry then becomes non-infantry has found a loophole to legally remain aboard a transport it has already embarked as long as it falls under the umbrella of the transport capacity.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The GENERAL PERMISSION to be on board is allowed.

This is 100% false.

Sigh. No, as proven now, at least 5 times, you are reading a *restriction* on Infantry units as a *permission* for only infantry to be embarked.

DeathReaper wrote:There are no rules at all that allow beasts to be carried.

Apart from the general rule stating that vehicles have a maximum capacity that cannot be exceeded. This capacity is liste in their profile, e.g. 10 for a rhino.Does this state "10 infantry models"? No, it does not, you are making up ithat requirement when no such rule exists

DeathReaper wrote:A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

This is what a transport is allowed to carry. Beasts are not on that list...

Agreed they are not mentioned in that sentence that restr5icts how many infantry units can be carried at a single time. Now, can you POSSIBLY address the RULE YOU ARE IGNORING - which lists the maximum capacity -> meaning how many models it can carry, of ANY type as NO restricytions are mentioned - instead of pretending it does not exist?

Your disingenuous argument, pretending a rule that destroys your argument does not exist, is frustrating and, frankly, demeans your argument.

Address the rule proving you wrong, show how it does not provide general permission, or concede. FUrhter reference to the above RESTRICTION is considered concession.

DeathReaper wrote:The transport can carry Infantry up to the transports capacity. What rule allows beasts to be carried?

The rule that has been provided, that you are ignoring. Dont.

What rule allows beasts to be carried? Please answer this one question.

You have been refusing to answer it because no rules states they can be carried, therefore they can not be carried.

It is literally that simple.

The maximum capacity is this:

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

It can carry infantry up to the transports capacity.

where is the transport allowed to carry beasts up to its capacity. Find that rule, I'll wait.

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rule allows beasts to be carried? Please answer this one question.

Which vehicle would you like? I'll use the Chaos Land Raider for the purpose of this discussion. The Chaos Land Raider's transport capacity is found on page 55 of the chaos marine codex. It reads "Transport Capacity: Ten models". Are beasts models? Yes. This is permission to carry beasts.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have been refusing to answer it because no rules states they can be carried, therefore they can not be carried.

Its the same rule that gives the transport permission toy carry any models at all, so it does exists and I have mentioned it twice now.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The maximum capacity is this:

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

It can carry infantry up to the transports capacity.

where is the transport allowed to carry beasts up to its capacity. Find that rule, I'll wait.

This does not give the transport permission to carry infantry units.

Permission to carry units comes from the transport capacity

This statement restricts the number of infantry units and IC the transport can carry.

There is no restriction on the number of beast units the transport can carry.

If you can find a way to legally place 2 different unit best units, or a best unit and a monstrous creature inside a chaos land raider you may carry them both so long as the number of models in total does not exceed 10.

This is because a chaos land raider can transport any 10 models. I.E. you have permission to transport any 10 models in a chaos land raider.

The trick is legally placing a non infantry unit inside a land raider. Unless stated otherwise, like with a storm raven, only infantry units may embark upon a transport. There is currently no other way for a unit to enter a transport.
In the scenario described in this thread. An infantry unit of possessed can legally embark upon a chaos land raider. Once embarked their unit type is no longer an issue, as long as the unit does not exceed 10 models it does not violate the the land raider's transport capacity.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rule allows beasts to be carried? Please answer this one question.

Which vehicle would you like? I'll use the Chaos Land Raider for the purpose of this discussion. The Chaos Land Raider's transport capacity is found on page 55 of the chaos marine codex. It reads "Transport Capacity: Ten models". Are beasts models? Yes. This is permission to carry beasts.

So you could have MC's and vehicles inside of it?

You are incorrect. you need to reference the rules for transport capacity to see what is allowed to be carried, you have shown the transport capacity of the Chaos Land Raider, but no allowance for beasts, or anything other than infantry to be carried.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The maximum capacity is this:

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

It can carry infantry up to the transports capacity.

where is the transport allowed to carry beasts up to its capacity. Find that rule, I'll wait.

This does not give the transport permission to carry infantry units.

Permission to carry units comes from the transport capacity

You are again incorrect, the rule specifically allows a Transport to carry a single Infantry unit that has any number of models up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity.

That quote does give the transport permission to carry infantry units, it says so right in the quoted rule...

 DJGietzen wrote:
There is no restriction on the number of beast units the transport can carry.

The permissive ruleset restricts the number of beasts that can be carried because they are not allowed to be carried, since there is no rule stating they can be carried.

 DJGietzen wrote:
This is because a chaos land raider can transport any 10 models. I.E. you have permission to transport any 10 models in a chaos land raider

You have permission to carry 10 infantry models in a chaos land raider, small but important difference.

Transport capacity in the codex references the Transport capacity rules in the BRB. Those rules tell us that only Infantry are allowed to be carried.

Since you can not find anything that allows beasts to be carried, I am going to accept that the rules does not exist and that beasts can not be carried in a transport.

Thank you for the debate.

Ok, So we what we have here is a rules conundrum (tm). Only if you look at the rules in a very limited (and incorrect) way.

A unit that is embarked becomes a different type of unit while embarked in a transport: Infantry becomes beasts.

The rules never state that a transport ONLY carry infantry models, just that they CAN carry infantry models.

There are specific rules that state ONLY infantry models can EMBARK upon a transport, unless otherwise stated.

You have a unit that embarked the transport, legally, as an infantry unit.

Since you have adhered to the stated rules, the unit can remain in the transport, or disembark as normal, no matter it's current unit type.

A simple manner for dealing with adherence rules.


Then there is the "If any eventuality isn't specifically worded in the rules then it is not allowed" way of looking at it.

A unit that is embarked becomes a different type of unit while embarked in a transport: Infantry becomes beasts.

The rules never mention any unit other than Infantry being carried by a transport.

The unit cannot be transported by the transport.

The rules never mention that any unit type can disembark from a transport. They certainly never mention any case where a unit becomes something different and what type of disembarkation should be used.

The unit is in a vehicle, that they cannot be in, that they cannot exit plus the vehicle cannot be moved (no transporting). If this immovable vehicle is destroyed in the subsequent shooting phase the unit inside still cannot disembark nor can they be killed because they cannot be in the vehicle to begin. The rules explode!!!!!!!

In short, as long as you adhere to the written rules, you will be fine. This is a very large collection of rules that sometimes cause circumstances that are unanticipated. When that happens you have to follow what is written not what is left out. There are rules written for units in a transport and no rules written for what units can be in a transport, merely what units can embark in a transport.

If we were to go by what's not written, then infantry units would not be able to disembark from a transport either. As there is no wording stating that Infantry units can disembark, there is only wording that an Infantry unit can Embark. Now, yes, there is wording that an embarked unit may disembark, but since "Infantry Unit" isn't the wording used then getting that Infantry Unit out would also not be allowed.

 Idolator wrote:
The rules never state that a transport ONLY carry infantry models, just that they CAN carry infantry models.

Incorrect, the rules state that a transport can ONLY carry infantry models

The ruleset needs to give permission for a transport to carry a unit type. We have an allowance for infantry and no allowance for any other types.

Therefore ONLY infantry can embark. This is a function of the ruleset as you need permission before you can do anything.

 Idolator wrote:
The rules never state that a transport ONLY carry infantry models, just that they CAN carry infantry models.

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

If what you say is true... then what would be the point of the quoted rule? You're saying that everything after the word CAN in the sentence doesn't matter because the word ONLY is not there.

What I'm getting from this is that...yes a transport CAN carry a single Infantry unit but it COULD carry Beasts because the quote doesn't say CAN ONLY carry a single Infantry unit. Therefore the above rule has no effect on the game. Is that right?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
The rules never state that a transport ONLY carry infantry models, just that they CAN carry infantry models.

Incorrect, the rules state that a transport can ONLY carry infantry models

The ruleset needs to give permission for a transport to carry a unit type. We have an allowance for infantry and no allowance for any other types.

Therefore ONLY infantry can embark. This is a function of the ruleset as you need permission before you can do anything.

Your rule book has the word "only" in it? Where did you get that special rule book. I hope it cost a lot. Does anyone else have this wildly expensive (not to mention imaginary) rule book?

Anyway, you are operating under the fallacious premise that "If any eventuality isn't specifically worded in the rules, then it is not allowed" . The rules state that ONLY infantry units can EMBARK and that rule was followed.

So,according to you, the unit is in a transport that it cannot be in, which it also cannot disembark from. Fun.

Let's just get this out of the way. There is no permission granted. Unless the word "Permitted" "Permit" or "Permission" is used, it's an instruction or rule.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of things that a player must do, that the rules make absolutely no mention. A really fun one is the fact that they don't give you permission to actually play.

WOW! I just found something very interesting. The Rules actually do state that you may find occasions where a situation is not covered by the rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH MY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How is this possible?!?!?!?! In a "If any eventuality isn't specifically worded in the rules, then it is not allowed" this is not possible!!!!!!! ANOTHER RULES EXPLOSION!






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
The rules never state that a transport ONLY carry infantry models, just that they CAN carry infantry models.

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

If what you say is true... then what would be the point of the quoted rule? You're saying that everything after the word CAN in the sentence doesn't matter because the word ONLY is not there.

What I'm getting from this is that...yes a transport CAN carry a single Infantry unit but it COULD carry Beasts because the quote doesn't say CAN ONLY carry a single Infantry unit. Therefore the above rule has no effect on the game. Is that right?

No, as the ONLY unit that can EMBARK is an infantry unit. There is no "ONLY" in place on what can be transported. They go on without issue. Once aboard, they are aboard. If they change to something else, they still embarked according to the rules.If you look at it anyway else, then a rule gets broken. If they disembark they are breaking several rules as well (there are no rules for what type of disembarkation this is by the way).

The rules don't cover this exact situation at all.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rule allows beasts to be carried? Please answer this one question.

Which vehicle would you like? I'll use the Chaos Land Raider for the purpose of this discussion. The Chaos Land Raider's transport capacity is found on page 55 of the chaos marine codex. It reads "Transport Capacity: Ten models". Are beasts models? Yes. This is permission to carry beasts.

So you could have MC's and vehicles inside of it?

You are incorrect. you need to reference the rules for transport capacity to see what is allowed to be carried, you have shown the transport capacity of the Chaos Land Raider, but no allowance for beasts, or anything other than infantry to be carried.

The allowance is to carry 10 models. Any 10 models. Yes, this technically includes MC's and other vehicles. You don't need any specific permission for beasts because beasts are a subset of models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The maximum capacity is this:

"A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

It can carry infantry up to the transports capacity.

where is the transport allowed to carry beasts up to its capacity. Find that rule, I'll wait.

This does not give the transport permission to carry infantry units.

Permission to carry units comes from the transport capacity

You are again incorrect, the rule specifically allows a Transport to carry a single Infantry unit that has any number of models up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity.

That quote does give the transport permission to carry infantry units, it says so right in the quoted rule...

It absolutely does not. That line from page 78 can only serve to limit the number of infantry units a transport can carry. With that line you cannot carry two 5 man infantry units inside a chaos land raider. With out that line you can carry two 5 man infantry units inside a chaos land raider, because two 5 man infantry squads equals 10 models. Clearly that line does not give permission to do anything. It only serves to restrict what you have already been given permission to do.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

 DJGietzen wrote:
There is no restriction on the number of beast units the transport can carry.

The permissive ruleset restricts the number of beasts that can be carried because they are not allowed to be carried, since there is no rule stating they can be carried.

The transport capacity of a chaos land raider is 10 models. Any 10 models. Absurd as it sounds a chaos land raider could technically carry 10 chaos land raiders because there is no restriction on which 10 models may be carried. 10 chaos land raiders does not exceed the 1 infantry unit restriction set up on page 78 and it does not exceed the 10 models transport capacity. This is no different with beasts.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:
[spoiler]

 DJGietzen wrote:
This is because a chaos land raider can transport any 10 models. I.E. you have permission to transport any 10 models in a chaos land raider

You have permission to carry 10 infantry models in a chaos land raider, small but important difference.

Transport capacity in the codex references the Transport capacity rules in the BRB. Those rules tell us that only Infantry are allowed to be carried.

There are no rules in the BRB that limits what unit types a transport can carry. This belief that "10 mdoels" must equate to "10 infantry models" is flawed. The BRB only limits what unit types can embark on a transport, not what the transport can carry. The difference here is the one I feel you have missed although it has been explained many many times. Yes, its a loophole. No it was not likely intended but yes, it is technically legal.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Since you can not find anything that allows beasts to be carried, I am going to accept that the rules does not exist and that beasts can not be carried in a transport.

To summarize.

A chaos land raider can carry 10 models.

A best is a model.

A chaos land raider can carry 10 beasts.

Bests are not infantry

Only infantry may embark onto a transport.

A best may not embark onto a transport.

Conclusion.

A chaos land raider can carry 10 bests that did not embark onto the land raider.

Possessed who transform while on board the land raider are beasts that did not embark onto the land raider.

A chaos land raider can carry 10 possessed who transformed into beasts while on board the land raider.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rule allows beasts to be carried? Please answer this one question.

Which vehicle would you like? I'll use the Chaos Land Raider for the purpose of this discussion. The Chaos Land Raider's transport capacity is found on page 55 of the chaos marine codex. It reads "Transport Capacity: Ten models". Are beasts models? Yes. This is permission to carry beasts.

So you could have MC's and vehicles inside of it?

You are incorrect. you need to reference the rules for transport capacity to see what is allowed to be carried, you have shown the transport capacity of the Chaos Land Raider, but no allowance for beasts, or anything other than infantry to be carried.

The allowance is to carry 10 models. Any 10 models. Yes, this technically includes MC's and other vehicles. You don't need any specific permission for beasts because beasts are a subset of models.

And here is where you are incorrect. It does not allow you to carry any 10 models, it allows you to "carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78)

But if you do not understand that quote I can see why you are making the error.

What are the rules for carrying 10 models?

Is this the rule: "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. " (78) ?

Is that the rule for transport capacity?

Notice how the quote of the sentence has a comma and not a period, meaning it is all once sentence. It can carry infantry up to the vehicles Transport Capacity. Where does it say that it can carry beasts up to the vehicles Transport Capacity ?

 DJGietzen wrote:
That line from page 78 can only serve to limit the number of infantry units a transport can carry. With that line you cannot carry two 5 man infantry units inside a chaos land raider. With out that line you can carry two 5 man infantry units inside a chaos land raider, because two 5 man infantry squads equals 10 models. Clearly that line does not give permission to do anything. It only serves to restrict what you have already been given permission to do.

Then please cite where the rules allow "what you have already been given permission to do." if page 78 is a restriction.

Where is the quote with this permission?


Idolator.

Do we agree that you may only do something if the rules tell you that you can?

Do we agree that the rules do not say that beasts can be embarked on a transport?

If you do not agree, please post rules references. Thanks.

On a separate note, i've just realised this issue could've happened before. There's a thing in apocalypse for BA that turns the warlord into an FMC, which could happen in a transport.

 DJGietzen wrote:
[ Yes, its a loophole. No it was not likely intended but yes, it is technically legal.

I think that it goes beyond even "not intended". It's more in the realm of "completely unconsidered or understood".

Somebody said "Hey, let's make them randomly turn into beasts!" and no one even thought "What if they are in a vehicle at the time?"

It seems that there are more than a few of these instances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:



Idolator.

Do we agree that you may only do something if the rules tell you that you can?

Do we agree that the rules do not say that beasts can be embarked on a transport?

If you do not agree, please post rules references. Thanks.

1. No we do not agree upon the first part.

2.Yes, we agree on the second part.

I don't know where it is in the rules, but most players convert oxygen to carbon dioxide in order to play. It seems like an integral part of playing the game.
The rule book also says that the rules are for playing with Citadel Miniatures. So all others would be disallowed including Forge World, unless there is some wording somewhere in a GW rule book,that specifically states that Forge World models may also be used. (I know there are rules for Forge World units, but a startling lack of allowances to use those models)

The rules don't tell me how to pick an opponent, how I can play a game with more than two people, how to behave, what size dice to use, etc etc etc.

Even the rule book it self doesn't agree with you. That can be evidenced with this little gem . "In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occasions where the situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't find the right page."

So, the rule book itself states that there are situations that are not covered by the rules. This could not possibly be the case, if simple omission constituted forbidance. Which I see argued here, a lot.

So, you aren't debating me, you are debating the rule book with that line of reasoning. If the rule book is right, that there are situations that aren't covered by the rules, then you are wrong in your basic premise. If you are right, then a paradox ensues, because the rules are wrong in their basic premise and it invalidates the rules general principles, rendering the veracity of your position worthless as the rules are not based on general principles. So, according to the rules, the statement: "you may only do something if the rules tell you that you can" is false.

That's not me, that's in the rule book. Unless you want to disregard the rules as a guide....which truly invalidates that position in it's entirely.

for the second bit:
I don't see any wording that states any specific type of unit "can be embarked" There are rules to embark that limit the embarkation process to infantry units. I don't see any rules stating that infantry units can be embarked. Just those that say that they can embark. I also don't see any rules that Infantry units can disembark, just that units can disembark.

Now, what you have done is applied that since the initial wording of transport capacity only includes Infantry units, then that must forbid any other type of unit from being considered inside the transport vehicle. This would also forbid any other type of unit from disembarking from said transport as well. This causes you to have a unit in a vehicle that it can neither inhabit or exit.

So, your basic premise is unraveled by the rule book itself.

Barring that and taking your flawed premise as fact, you end up with a rules paradox in which you are required to choose between two actions, neither of which would be allowed.