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I work for a small FLGS in the UK and I can truthfully say if GW went bust, I would be out of a job. So would a lot of other people and I for one hope GW never go out of business. I just hope they can change for the better.

We sell PP, Mantic, Bolt Action, Spartan Games, X-Wing and Magic. GW outsells all of these together on an average month. We've sold around 30 Knights just from in-store alone. Bolt Action and Spartan (Firestorm) have done brilliantly recently and we are really pushing these games at the moment as they have a low cost entry, good profit margins and solid rules that are constantly updated and FAQ'd. We still have more 40k players on our gaming nights but this is changing slowly. The whole attitude is changing in our players too, they are getting more annoyed at GW for certain things BUT love the new models. It's actually the rules that are pissing people off more and more. Especially once they've had a game of Bolt Action or Firestorm to see how a balanced rule set is played. A lot of this is down to "Deathstar" units too. From watching a lot of games we have certain players who will continually use these units and it becomes frustrating as you have to hard counter them. In other games there are less of these deathstar units and it comes down actually playing the tactical side of the game. I still love 40k and my Tau and it will always be my number one game but I am personally tired of getting moaned at by opponents for playing ONE Riptide as it's "cheese" etc.

The Hobbit has been GWs biggest loss in recent times.

I don't think any of us really want them to go bust, just have a swift kick in the bollocks to wake the feth up and fix the issues.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Take the video game industry for example. Back when I was young a video game (brand new) cost $20. When the average price of the game became $30, many players said OMG THAT IS CRIMINAL THIS INDUSTRY IS DEAD! Low and behold, the industry continued to thrive and thus game developers began charging $40 per game, then jumped dramatically to $60 per game. And now there are online subscriptions to contend with as well. Yet that industry still thrives despite the complaining about the price of the products. The games have gotten prettier, but on the whole there hasn't been anything really "new" in roughly ten years as far as a game goes. Sure we get new interactive ways to play the games, but they are really the same old, rehashed crap with new, fancy labeling and ways to play it.

Now with GW they are merely doing the same thing. And like the video game industry there are still a GREAT MANY people willing to pay those prices and hock $140 for the new Imperial Knight which says to GW, "How can we do more?" I'm sure their company is fine despite lower sales in recent years. They will be around for a long time yet.

I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

I've been gaming since the beginning of the NES days and they certainly were not $49.99. I remember buying SNES games brand new for $39.99 and thinking that was outrageous. But I loved to play games so I paid it. They steadily increased prices to the point they are now and each time somebody cried wolf and lots of other people threw fits but now we just accept it. GW has done the same. I haven't been playing for long (about a year now) but I understand prices have inflated a tremendous amount since the game started coming around. The point I was trying to make was that a raise in prices doesn't necessarily mean doomsday is coming for GW.

Unfortunately, you remember wrong. The inconvenient truth of gaming is that video game prices have come down dramatically over time.

Remember, a video game that cost $50-60 in 1990 costs much, much more now.
[spoiler]

As a point of comparison, GW's prices have not only increased, but usually increased far more then is immediately noticeable, as boxed kits have frequently had their contents substantially decreased with the prices remaining the same.[/spoiler]

One also has to factor in the quality - a game made today is a lot more advanced; both in terms of programming and graphics, than a game made back then.

The exception being that Ferrari can genuinely lay claim to making some of the best road cars available today, continually push the boundaries of what is achievable in a production car, have massive worldwide brand recognition and caché, and, even then still don't make the most expensive cars it is possible to buy.

If you're going to run your business like Ferrari you better damn well have the stones to justify it. GW at this moment in time simply do not.

The mentality of 'we sell to this customer profile, if that's not you we don't care' is another huge problem. Ferrari can afford to do that because owning a Ferrari is a status symbol. People see you driving it and assume you're rich, which makes everyone want one just because its got the Ferrari logo on it.

GW thinking they have that kind of reputation is nothing but laughable.

Instead GW should be worried about the people they are pricing out and trying to net as many customers as they can. This would mean doing market research to find out who buys their products and what those people want.

Funnily enough TSR wasn't doing any market research in their final days either, they were pumping out anything and everything and assumeing people would by it because it had their name on it.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The mentality of 'we sell to this customer profile, if that's not you we don't care' is another huge problem. Ferrari can afford to do that because owning a Ferrari is a status symbol. People see you driving it and assume you're rich.

GW thinking they have that kind of reputation is nothing but laughable.

Instead GW should be worried about the people they are pricing out and trying to net as many customers as they can. This would mean doing market research to find out who buys their products and what those people want.

Funnily enough TSR wasn't doing any market research in their final days either, they were pumping out anything and everything and assumeing people would by it because it had their name on it.

When I worked for the great enemy the higher ups always compared themselves to Porsche, saying things like "Well you never see Porsche having sales, and we are the Porsche of miniatures". And funny enough its echoed to this day from red shirts from time to time.

They are high on their own farts. The fact that their stock tanked and they don't understand why and just jack up prices proves that there is nothing we can do to stop GW from driving itself into the ground, clearly they have taken our wallet votes as a sign of aggressive from their enemies (their customers).

That or they are just sitting around scratching their heads, wondering why we aren't thanking them for allowing us the privilege of buying their product, while everything comes crashing down around them.

I always say its because they destroyed the love of the game.

With art be it movies or anything, you need to put the time in and not expect money, if it happens then great. If not then do something else. The second you do it with money in mind is setting yourself up on the path to ruin and soullessness.

GW sold its love for money. They need to get Kirby out, drop prices and balance the fething game. Allies, super heavies, double force org and formations should have never seen the light of day in games under 3000pts.

 Ravenous D wrote:
When I worked for the great enemy the higher ups always compared themselves to Porsche, saying things like "Well you never see Porsche having sales, and we are the Porsche of miniatures". And funny enough its echoed to this day from red shirts from time to time

When I was at GW they used to compare themselves to Mercedes. The ones who drank the Kool-Aid would say "GW is the Mercedes of the miniatures industry".

Oddly enough when they used to say that it would indicate they acknowledged GW was part of a larger industry and not self-contained in the "GW Hobby".

 Ravenous D wrote:
When I worked for the great enemy the higher ups always compared themselves to Porsche, saying things like "Well you never see Porsche having sales, and we are the Porsche of miniatures". And funny enough its echoed to this day from red shirts from time to time.

Kirby used that line in his financial report one year, which is what spawned the 'I'm a Porsche!' Pumbagore meme...

 Talizvar wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

Now days you just put a game in your "Wishlist" on Steam and have them notify you when it is on sale...
Will GW ever have a sale?
Their idea of that is the "one click purchase" since I would get carpal tunnel from all the clicking to select all the models individually so I can get it all for the same price.

Those one-click bundle things for the exact same price are infuriating to me - what kind of moronic, idiotic, stupid idea is that? Do they truly think customers can't add, multiply, or divide to see that there are no savings to be had? When will this insanity stop?

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I work for a small FLGS in the UK and I can truthfully say if GW went bust, I would be out of a job. So would a lot of other people and I for one hope GW never go out of business. I just hope they can change for the better.

We sell PP, Mantic, Bolt Action, Spartan Games, X-Wing and Magic. GW outsells all of these together on an average month. We've sold around 30 Knights just from in-store alone. Bolt Action and Spartan (Firestorm) have done brilliantly recently and we are really pushing these games at the moment as they have a low cost entry, good profit margins and solid rules that are constantly updated and FAQ'd. We still have more 40k players on our gaming nights but this is changing slowly. The whole attitude is changing in our players too, they are getting more annoyed at GW for certain things BUT love the new models. It's actually the rules that are pissing people off more and more. Especially once they've had a game of Bolt Action or Firestorm to see how a balanced rule set is played. A lot of this is down to "Deathstar" units too. From watching a lot of games we have certain players who will continually use these units and it becomes frustrating as you have to hard counter them. In other games there are less of these deathstar units and it comes down actually playing the tactical side of the game. I still love 40k and my Tau and it will always be my number one game but I am personally tired of getting moaned at by opponents for playing ONE Riptide as it's "cheese" etc.

The Hobbit has been GWs biggest loss in recent times.

You also exist at the heart of GW's penetration. The rest of the world is much more spread out. From what I understand, England's hobbyists are largely GW, losing GW would leave a distinct vacuum. This would certainly kill many indies, but the market would likely recover and enter a healthy ecosystem of companies competing within a year or two after some of the dust settled. The reliance on GW hurts the hobby as a whole and everyone in it. I honestly don't want to see another GW type company where they control a large chunk of the market as it is bad for new companies and can hurt healthy competition.

 Ravenous D wrote:
I always say its because they destroyed the love of the game.

With art be it movies or anything, you need to put the time in and not expect money, if it happens then great. If not then do something else. The second you do it with money in mind is setting yourself up on the path to ruin and soullessness.

GW sold its love for money. They need to get Kirby out, drop prices and balance the fething game. Allies, super heavies, double force org and formations should have never seen the light of day in games under 3000pts.

Quoted for truth. Also have a look at his sig.

 filbert wrote:
You will never know what GW really think of their customers since they never deign to communicate with them. But here is some info from several former GW sales managers, who were quite high up the GW food chain at one point:

filbert wrote:...GW call their customers things like "Geek, Gomer, Sheep, and Pleb"....

From the following threads:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/369325.page#2981277

http://infinitythegame.com/forum/index.php?/topic/5023-are-you-a-faction-whore/page-7?hl=gomer

Obviously, this sort of terminology doesn't crop up in public but it does give some insight into just how the upper echelons of GW really feel about the people that buy their games.

And thus what happened with TSR. Lorraine Williams despised gamers. Thought they were lonely geeks with poor hygiene. GW has the exact same attitude now. It shows, and it will lead them to the same place as TSR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 prplehippo wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
When I worked for the great enemy the higher ups always compared themselves to Porsche, saying things like "Well you never see Porsche having sales, and we are the Porsche of miniatures". And funny enough its echoed to this day from red shirts from time to time

When I was at GW they used to compare themselves to Mercedes. The ones who drank the Kool-Aid would say "GW is the Mercedes of the miniatures industry".

Oddly enough when they used to say that it would indicate they acknowledged GW was part of a larger industry and not self-contained in the "GW Hobby".

Except the difference is, Mercedes will actually sell you an S-Class Mercedes for the $125k price ticket. GW wants to sell you a C-Class Mercedes ($40k) at an S-Class price and tell you how wonderful they are for having ripped you off.

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.

Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I work for a small FLGS in the UK and I can truthfully say if GW went bust, I would be out of a job. So would a lot of other people and I for one hope GW never go out of business. I just hope they can change for the better.

We sell PP, Mantic, Bolt Action, Spartan Games, X-Wing and Magic. GW outsells all of these together on an average month. We've sold around 30 Knights just from in-store alone. Bolt Action and Spartan (Firestorm) have done brilliantly recently and we are really pushing these games at the moment as they have a low cost entry, good profit margins and solid rules that are constantly updated and FAQ'd. We still have more 40k players on our gaming nights but this is changing slowly. The whole attitude is changing in our players too, they are getting more annoyed at GW for certain things BUT love the new models. It's actually the rules that are pissing people off more and more. Especially once they've had a game of Bolt Action or Firestorm to see how a balanced rule set is played. A lot of this is down to "Deathstar" units too. From watching a lot of games we have certain players who will continually use these units and it becomes frustrating as you have to hard counter them. In other games there are less of these deathstar units and it comes down actually playing the tactical side of the game. I still love 40k and my Tau and it will always be my number one game but I am personally tired of getting moaned at by opponents for playing ONE Riptide as it's "cheese" etc.

The Hobbit has been GWs biggest loss in recent times.

And your in the UK where GW has a more dominant street presence and this is happening. Imagine what it is like for everywhere else in the world where GW does NOT have that kind of presence. Hate to tell you this, but it is the point of this thread. The fall does NOT happen slowly, it never does. People always assume it will take a long time once the turning happens. It doesn't - it happens fast. Just in my area, there were still 16 regular 40k players at my local FLGS in November. Fast forward four months later and there are now 2 and the other 14 have all already sold all their 40k stuff and moved on from GW for good. Happens, very, very fast.

The same comments about GW being here a long time based on their size were very similar to those about TSR in it's final days. "They have the brand". "They will never go away." etc. Less than two years later, they were completely gone.

My bet is GW turned this corner the second half of 2013. I would also bet, it is going to accelerate a lot faster from here.

Don't worry about being out of a job. If GW collapses, what is spent on them today will move to other systems to fill the gap. Always does, always will. People spend a certain amount on wargaming and will continue to do so, with or without GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
He picked up a $30 plastic Space Marine Librarian and a nearby Hell Dorado character model priced at $10.99. He looked at me and said something to the effect "$11 for metal and $30 for cheap plastic?" This GW company is seriously whacked with what they charge for cheap plastic and I have no interest. You older guys waste your money on this junk, but it is your money. Me and my friends won't go near this game." I told him about it being a character model, explained how troops were cheaper, etc. How fun it was to play with such variety. All the typical drivel we have used for years. His response after my drivel was (and I will never forget this line), "Dude, no game is that good to pay so much money for cheap plastic models."

I have to agree with him. The only reason I still play/paint GW games and miniatures is because I'm so invested into the games (I'm a fan of Lord of the Rings, and Raven Guard Space Marines). But if I was a fresh faced newcomer today in 2014, I wouldn't even consider GW with the current price gouging.

I'd buy a PS4 or a PC instead.

And the lesson I learned from that was: GW believes they are Ferrari. Unfortunately, the younger gamers of today view them as a Chevy - and you are NEVER going to sell a Chevy at a Ferrari price tag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:
...snip...But there is not a disconnect between GW and their TARGET AUDIENCE.

A 10% drop in sales, despite a market that grew by over 15% last year and a massive increase in product releases during that time says there is a MASSIVE disconnect between GW and it's audience. They are so concerned about how they can fleece current players that they have completely boxed themselves out of getting NEW customers. In effect, GW was off trends of where they should have been by almost 35%-40%. That is more than a disconnect, it is utter ignorance and, looking at those FACTS, it shows a company very, very close to collapse. This is where TSR was once, and it is where GW is today.

Stupid business all around. In all honesty, if I ever were to run GW from a CEO perspective, the first things I would do on my first day there is fire all of the senior management except for operations (the only part that runs well).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.

Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

Nope. Appropriate use of detail is a sign of quality, merely slathering everything in skulls/filling open spaces with superfluous detail is not.

There is a separation between technical quality, which GW largely does have, and quality of concept and execution, which is where they've been off the mark quite frequently in the last year or two IMO.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I work for a small FLGS in the UK and I can truthfully say if GW went bust, I would be out of a job. So would a lot of other people and I for one hope GW never go out of business. I just hope they can change for the better.

We sell PP, Mantic, Bolt Action, Spartan Games, X-Wing and Magic. GW outsells all of these together on an average month. We've sold around 30 Knights just from in-store alone. Bolt Action and Spartan (Firestorm) have done brilliantly recently and we are really pushing these games at the moment as they have a low cost entry, good profit margins and solid rules that are constantly updated and FAQ'd. We still have more 40k players on our gaming nights but this is changing slowly. The whole attitude is changing in our players too, they are getting more annoyed at GW for certain things BUT love the new models. It's actually the rules that are pissing people off more and more. Especially once they've had a game of Bolt Action or Firestorm to see how a balanced rule set is played. A lot of this is down to "Deathstar" units too. From watching a lot of games we have certain players who will continually use these units and it becomes frustrating as you have to hard counter them. In other games there are less of these deathstar units and it comes down actually playing the tactical side of the game. I still love 40k and my Tau and it will always be my number one game but I am personally tired of getting moaned at by opponents for playing ONE Riptide as it's "cheese" etc.

The Hobbit has been GWs biggest loss in recent times.

And your in the UK where GW has a more dominant street presence and this is happening. Imagine what it is like for everywhere else in the world where GW does NOT have that kind of presence. Hate to tell you this, but it is the point of this thread. The fall does NOT happen slowly, it never does. People always assume it will take a long time once the turning happens. It doesn't - it happens fast. Just in my area, there were still 16 regular 40k players at my local FLGS in November. Fast forward four months later and there are now 2 and the other 14 have all already sold all their 40k stuff and moved on from GW for good. Happens, very, very fast.

The same comments about GW being here a long time based on their size were very similar to those about TSR in it's final days. "They have the brand". "They will never go away." etc. Less than two years later, they were completely gone.

My bet is GW turned this corner the second half of 2013. I would also bet, it is going to accelerate a lot faster from here.

Don't worry about being out of a job. If GW collapses, what is spent on them today will move to other systems to fill the gap. Always does, always will. People spend a certain amount on wargaming and will continue to do so, with or without GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
He picked up a $30 plastic Space Marine Librarian and a nearby Hell Dorado character model priced at $10.99. He looked at me and said something to the effect "$11 for metal and $30 for cheap plastic?" This GW company is seriously whacked with what they charge for cheap plastic and I have no interest. You older guys waste your money on this junk, but it is your money. Me and my friends won't go near this game." I told him about it being a character model, explained how troops were cheaper, etc. How fun it was to play with such variety. All the typical drivel we have used for years. His response after my drivel was (and I will never forget this line), "Dude, no game is that good to pay so much money for cheap plastic models."

I have to agree with him. The only reason I still play/paint GW games and miniatures is because I'm so invested into the games (I'm a fan of Lord of the Rings, and Raven Guard Space Marines). But if I was a fresh faced newcomer today in 2014, I wouldn't even consider GW with the current price gouging.

I'd buy a PS4 or a PC instead.

And the lesson I learned from that was: GW believes they are Ferrari. Unfortunately, the younger gamers of today view them as a Chevy - and you are NEVER going to sell a Chevy at a Ferrari price tag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:
...snip...But there is not a disconnect between GW and their TARGET AUDIENCE.

A 10% drop in sales, despite a market that grew by over 15% last year and a massive increase in product releases during that time says there is a MASSIVE disconnect between GW and it's audience. They are so concerned about how they can fleece current players that they have completely boxed themselves out of getting NEW customers. In effect, GW was off trends of where they should have been by almost 35%-40%. That is more than a disconnect, it is utter ignorance.

Stupid business all around. In all honesty, if I ever were to run GW from a CEO perspective, the first things I would do on my first day there is fire all of the senior management except for operations (the only part that runs well).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

Detail doesn't automatically mean quality, no.

Those 'Corpsehammer' models that popped up on Kickstarter a while back where covered in detail. So is the Pumbagore, and the original Chaos Obliterators.

Detail that adds to the overall aesthetics of the model can be a sign of a quality sculpt. Detail for the sake of detail, not so much... and even the former doesn't entirely excuse other flaws in the model.

 azreal13 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.

Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

Nope. Appropriate use of detail is a sign of quality, merely slathering everything in skulls/filling open spaces with superfluous detail is not.

There is a separation between technical quality, which GW largely does have, and quality of concept and execution, which is where they've been off the mark quite frequently in the last year or two IMO.

Ah yes, that is true. Technical wise, GW models are high quality. Conceptually though...yeah, it can get silly.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.

Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

Detail is a part of quality, but is not, in and of itself, an indicator of quality.

A Ducati motorcycle is an incredibly understated machine in terms of appearance, especially as compared to something like a Harley Davidson, yet few would argue that Ducati doesn't make some of the greatest motorcycles in the world in terms of quality.

In terms of miniatures, GW made the Razorgor and (more recently) the Skull Cannon. These are two highly detailed and incredibly ugly (ie., low quality) models.

And, personally, I would never call the Gyrocopter model "high quality" in terms of appearance. I play Dwarfs, and I'll never put one of those GW flying bathtubs on the table.

Especially since the gyrocopter is barely bigger then a paint pot for $55.

Saldiven wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.

Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

Detail is a part of quality, but is not, in and of itself, an indicator of quality.

A Ducati motorcycle is an incredibly understated machine in terms of appearance, especially as compared to something like a Harley Davidson, yet few would argue that Ducati doesn't make some of the greatest motorcycles in the world in terms of quality.

In terms of miniatures, GW made the Razorgor and (more recently) the Skull Cannon. These are two highly detailed and incredibly ugly (ie., low quality) models.

And, personally, I would never call the Gyrocopter model "high quality" in terms of appearance. I play Dwarfs, and I'll never put one of those GW flying bathtubs on the table.

I don't think design aesthetic is quality, but more preference.

As for quality, I would rate GW plastic kits higher than soft chinese plastics but lower than the high-durability plastic used by Lego. As for their kit quality, they are no better (or worse) than DreamForge, Wyrd or Privateer Press. Them including "options" on a sprue doesn't make the kit any higher quality.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ah yes, that is true. Technical wise, GW models are high quality.

As games pieces? Sure.

As models? Not particularly. Some of the metals were, but their plastics suffer from the choice of a softer grade of polystyrene to that normally used by model companies, to make the models less brittle and this more durable on the table. As a side effect of the softer plastic, though, they lack the crisp definition that is only possible in a harder plastic, and parts have to be chunkier so you lose the superfine detailing available with harder plastic (stuff like aerials and banner poles and spears that have to be ridiculously thick so they don't snap during use). Because they have to factor in ease of assembly, they sacrifice detail and make design choices around fitting the models into a given box rather than around what makes the best model. And their intermittent moulding issues (I've had some absolutely appalling mould misallignments on Marine sprues) add a whole extra layer of fun.


GW has some awesome designs. But the actual execution of those designs is hindered by the intended function as a game piece, rather than a display piece.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I work for a small FLGS in the UK ... We still have more 40k players on our gaming nights but this is changing slowly. The whole attitude is changing in our players too, they are getting more annoyed at GW for certain things BUT love the new models. It's actually the rules that are pissing people off more and more. Especially once they've had a game of Bolt Action or Firestorm to see how a balanced rule set is played.

I think this portion is the key statement in the post. In the UK, a place where GW is the dominate table top game and has been so for years, the FLGS operators are seeing a change in people who traditionally love GW. I think that speaks volumes. People aren't forging a narrative or doing house rules, the slowly starting to look else where.

I remember when Warmachine came out and was introduced at my store. One guy got it and was talking to us about it. At first, most of us looked down our noses at it, but eventually some of use gave it a try. I think for about 6 months, only two people in the store played Warmachine, with everyone else playing 40K. 3 months later, 8 of the 10 regulars had Warmachine armies, with the only hold outs being a guy who didn't play a lot anymore and someone who had other things come up in his life, so he was extremely busy. 40K was still played occasionally, but most people played Warmachine and Fantasy basically went completely way. Point being that when it transitions, it will be fast. All it takes is for people to have back to back bad 40K games and consistently good experiences with another game to get people interested.

I don't know where your store stands on it's relationship with GW, but you guys could push the crowd to new games. Offer up a tournament with a new game system that people seem to like at a low points value. Offer a discount to buy in with some prizes at the end. Organized play is a good way to get people into new game systems because people will play them once they know they can get consistent games. My FLGS did this with Star Trek Attack Wing and basically doubled the number of players.

 Wayshuba wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Lord of Skulls and the Gyrocopter are high quality, actually. They have a great amount of detail.

'High quality' and 'Has lots of detail' are not synonymous.

Isn't detail a part of quality? What counts as high quality?

Detail is a part of quality, but is not, in and of itself, an indicator of quality.

A Ducati motorcycle is an incredibly understated machine in terms of appearance, especially as compared to something like a Harley Davidson, yet few would argue that Ducati doesn't make some of the greatest motorcycles in the world in terms of quality.

In terms of miniatures, GW made the Razorgor and (more recently) the Skull Cannon. These are two highly detailed and incredibly ugly (ie., low quality) models.

And, personally, I would never call the Gyrocopter model "high quality" in terms of appearance. I play Dwarfs, and I'll never put one of those GW flying bathtubs on the table.

I don't think design aesthetic is quality, but more preference.

As for quality, I would rate GW plastic kits higher than soft chinese plastics but lower than the high-durability plastic used by Lego. As for their kit quality, they are no better (or worse) than DreamForge, Wyrd or Privateer Press. Them including "options" on a sprue doesn't make the kit any higher quality.

Options can increase value, but they have to be something the customer actually wants. What GW has done with its combo kits is transparent and sort of annoying.

To save money you make a dual kit, meaning that the design is constrained by having to share common parts between two different models in such a way that one cannot use the spares to make extra models. Then, you increase the price of that kit, telling me that it has more value because it is a "dual" kit. You get to have fewer product codes, less inventory taking up space, and fewer molds, and in return I have to pay good money for plastic parts that I have no earthly use for. Thanks GW, good thing I'm a moron or I might be upset by that!

weeble1000 wrote:
Options can increase value, but they have to be something the customer actually wants. What GW has done with its combo kits is transparent and sort of annoying.

To save money you make a dual kit, meaning that the design is constrained by having to share common parts between two different models in such a way that one cannot use the spares to make extra models. Then, you increase the price of that kit, telling me that it has more value because it is a "dual" kit. You get to have fewer product codes, less inventory taking up space, and fewer molds, and in return I have to pay good money for plastic parts that I have no earthly use for. Thanks GW, good thing I'm a moron or I might be upset by that!

Yes, I can see your point and agree.
I cannot help thinking they really had an opportunity to make good with their customers in this regard and messed up.

I still remember a "Mach 1" car model I bought for the same price as all the other model kits out there and was overwhelmed with all the options:
-2 rim sets.
-2 tire sets.
-4 options for hood scoop / cut-out.
-4 intake / carb options.
- 2 interiors (racing or street).
- 3 options for spoilers.
When I was done I had 2 extra engines, I wish I knew then about magnets I do now.

As pointed out, with the adjustment to the Baneblade kit, we now are able to make any of the Super Heavy tanks.
They could save huge money on one kit fits all and do a modest price increase or not at all but they chose not to.
The extra bits alone I am sure I could put to good use (Fortress with mounted Shadowsword gun anyone?) but it is irritating .

We are now overly attuned that EVERY change GW makes is ALWAYS a disproportionate price hike which just makes us all the more upset each time.
I truly am glad I bought my two tanks before the change, the cost savings in comparison I could have bought a third tank.

 Talizvar wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Options can increase value, but they have to be something the customer actually wants. What GW has done with its combo kits is transparent and sort of annoying.

To save money you make a dual kit, meaning that the design is constrained by having to share common parts between two different models in such a way that one cannot use the spares to make extra models. Then, you increase the price of that kit, telling me that it has more value because it is a "dual" kit. You get to have fewer product codes, less inventory taking up space, and fewer molds, and in return I have to pay good money for plastic parts that I have no earthly use for. Thanks GW, good thing I'm a moron or I might be upset by that!

Yes, I can see your point and agree.
I cannot help thinking they really had an opportunity to make good with their customers in this regard and messed up.

I still remember a "Mach 1" car model I bought for the same price as all the other model kits out there and was overwhelmed with all the options:
-2 rim sets.
-2 tire sets.
-4 options for hood scoop / cut-out.
-4 intake / carb options.
- 2 interiors (racing or street).
- 3 options for spoilers.
When I was done I had 2 extra engines, I wish I knew then about magnets I do now.

As pointed out, with the adjustment to the Baneblade kit, we now are able to make any of the Super Heavy tanks.
They could save huge money on one kit fits all and do a modest price increase or not at all but they chose not to.
The extra bits alone I am sure I could put to good use (Fortress with mounted Shadowsword gun anyone?) but it is irritating .

We are now overly attuned that EVERY change GW makes is ALWAYS a disproportionate price hike which just makes us all the more upset each time.
I truly am glad I bought my two tanks before the change, the cost savings in comparison I could have bought a third tank.

Sometimes the bits are useful, but plenty of times they just aren't. Options that add value are fantastic, but there's also a question of how much value they really add. Does the added value of the extra bits and options justify a price increase? I absolutely think models should come with all available unit options. As an IG player, it was always super frustrating that you had to hunt down special weapon bits. If you can't build the unit in a way that corresponds to the game rules, that's a huge problem.

The most annoying thing with dual kits is when you can use it to build one of two entirely different units, and when assembled as one type of unit, the bits that you would use for the different unit are both superfluous and used to justify a price increase. It is one thing when you buy an IG squad and don't use the flamer because you decided to build a squad with a grenade launcher. It is another thing when you buy a unit of Witch Elves and have to pay extra for Sisters of Slaughter bits.

If instead of Sisters of Slaughter bits you got half a dozen variant heads for your Witch Elves, bits to WYSIWYG every possible Witch Elf unit option, and a variety of optional aesthetic bits to customize the look of your individual Witch Elf models, that would be great and add some value to the kit, possibly only in helping it compete with kits from competitors at a similar price point. But that kit, for example, only includes variant heads and weapons that make a unit of Sisters of Slaughter if you use them. So now you can't use them if you follow GW's WYSIWYG game rules because your Witch Elves might be confused for Sisters of Slaughter. So they are literally useless in the context of the kit itself and space on a sprue that could have included swanky options for your Witch Elves is eaten up by useless crap you are forced to pay extra for.

It reminds me of Andy Jones in the Chapterhouse case, belligerently insisting that a product that contains one bit that you want and 10 bits you don't want means that GW sells the bit you want.

You can't buy just a power fist from Games Workshop, can you?

Sure, you can buy this accessory pack. You get the power fist and a whole bunch of bits for your bits box along with it!

But GW doesn't just sell a power fist product, correct?

In this accessory pack you can buy the power fist.

But you have to buy the other parts to get the power fist, correct?

You GET the other parts along with the power fist! You buy the power fist and it comes with these other extra parts that you can use later.

What an

Let's not forget in your example, and I don't think it's isolated, or will be given a few more release waves, that the basic WE choice is priced at the Elite price of the Sister's too.

You can tell they're not as concerned with their WHFB as if they sold their precious Marines as a dual ten man Tactical/Sternguard squad for £50 there'd be hell to pay.

 azreal13 wrote:
Let's not forget in your example, and I don't think it's isolated, or will be given a few more release waves, that the basic WE choice is priced at the Elite price of the Sister's too.

You can tell they're not as concerned with their WHFB as if they sold their precious Marines as a dual ten man Tactical/Sternguard squad for £50 there'd be hell to pay.

Lol, yea, I forgot about the pricing issue. No wonder WHFB is dying.