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 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

While thats totally understandable I still don't think that means that its not possible that we are currently in a golden age of wargaming.

 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

The fact that you're choosing to ignore everything else and just use 40K as the benchmark of the health of wargaming in general doesn't change the fact that all that other stuff is out there...

 carlos13th wrote:
It may not be the golden age of GW but it could be argued its a golden age for tabletop gaming.

I havent been into Wargaming for long enough to judge what is and isnt a golden age but I could see an argument being made for it atm.

It's definitely a golden age right now. Look at the range of different games in different scales and game sizes and genres. If you're limiting yourself to Games Workshop games, even if you enjoy them, you're doing yourself a huge disservice.


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 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

See, I'd argue the opposite way. You have 12,000 points of a single army. What could you possibly need? You could sit on that for the rest of your gaming life and never need another Eldar model, aside from the odd new unit you want.

This is the perfect time to try something else. Especially when, for some games out there, you can buy an entire 'army' for the cost of a single large GW model. A good example is Infinity. You can buy a 300pt force which will be perfectly playable for the forseeable future of the game for the cost of a Wraithknight. All rules and markers and templates are free. The most extra you'll need to buy is about 5 D20's. You can buy the Malifaux rulebook and a crew or two for the cost of a Wraithknight. All you need on top of that is a regular deck of cards, which is used in place of dice.

Ignoring games that are on the market because you have too much 40k already is nonsense.

 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

I have lots of 40k stuff, too. I haven't bothered to calculate the points lately.

 Saevus wrote:
These doom and gloom threads make me sad inside. Like a couple people pointed out, the trickle down from GW going down would likely crush a portion of the table top market.

Though, GW has such a valuable IP, whether it survives or not, Warhammer 40k will, and that is all that matters to me.


side note: Why are so many people keen on Victoria's Minis but rage at GW? I love the look of some of those minis over there, I really do, I'd LOVE to make an IG army using them. It is also $50 for 10. I know they why its $50, I get it. But why on earth are people so keen on them but a $35 pack from GW is like GW is killing your children?

For me its quality and variety. For example, there's a beef jerky company in Kentucky called Mingua Bros that I love. A 7oz bag costs $14. Its also absolutely delicious, and the company is constantly adding new flavors and trying new things. So even though the jerky costs more than other brands, I'm happy to pay it because I feel its worth the increase in price and I want to support the company.

Yes, Vic's minis are almost twice GW's Cadians or Catachans price in my area. They're also far higher quality and have aesthetics I like better. Plus Vic listens to her customers and constantly improves. This is a luxury good that I do as a hobby. I am already "wasting" money on little plastic army men. So why not get the best thing I can? I can either spend my money on a kit that's poor value for the quality like GW, or I could pay more and get what I really want like Victoria Lamb, kromlech, etc. Its the same reason a guitarist might drop three times the money to buy a legitimate Gibson SG over an Epiphone one, or why a person might want a real Shelby Cobra instead of a recreation.

Simply put, I don't feel 10 Cadians from GW are worth $30. If I wanted cheap ground pounders, Dreamforge has their stormtroopers with superior detail, better proportions and looks, and better casting at 20 guys for only about 10 bucks more. If I'm wanting purely kickass looking guard to paint, Vics minis have far superior detail and aesthetics, more options, are top notch quality. So why would I bother with GW? They don't make minis high enough quality to justify their price to me, and they dont sell them cheap enough to let me just ignore the quality either. If they can't fulfill either of those niches, why would I bother with them?

Moustaffa you have rasied an important point there about value. Cost and value are very sepeate. Something that costs more can be more valuable to a person than for a vareity of reasons. What has value to me may not have value to you and vice versa.

I am looking to pick up some miniatures from a place called Steel Fist miniatures. They make what are quite possible my favourite Samurai miniatures. They are some of the more expensive Samurai miniatures around but are still cheaper/around the same price as the Kensei miniatures. Steel fist are more expensive than perry Samurai too but what they offer is differnt to me from what perry offer.

The research that goes into them the uniqueness of them and the fact the guy who makes them is a really nice and helpful guy all factor into my perception that these are worth the extra cost compared to some other miniatures.

Both those miniature companies however are cheaper than GW and have more value for me than buying from GW which is a large part of the reason I am getting rid of a large amount of my GW stuff except the stuff I really want to paint but not play with.

I would agree with you about the guard and Catachan where they are to expensive for what they are.

To be fair, most tabletop gamers currently are either 40k gamers or ex 40k gamers, esp. as the follow up companies are no serious thread as they are run so poorly. If 40k would vanish, you won't get a global Warmahordes/Malifaux/Infinity/SAGA/Godslayer/FoW community of the same size. And X-Wing StarTrekAttackWing are in a different league, basically closer to board games, prepainted and all. Having all those small wargames is nice, but they will be a different size for a long time.

OTOH the 40k setting is too valuable to be left in the hands of economic amateurs. If GW "goes under", it will soon rise again under a more professional management. There is no economic reason, why GW is in such a bad shape, it is all self made by a consistent series of WTF decisions. A new management could easily achieve a sustainable growth within two years.

You say that like its a bad thing Kroot. I'd be glad if no single company gained such a foothold again. While we do owe the current situation to GW, another company 'taking over' the majority of the market after them wouldn't be ideal. It would just strangle the market all over again.

The "current situation" of the whole wargames market is up for debate.

GW ascended to its current position on a rocket booster made of successful retail of original games, licensed games and distributed games.

Now they only have WH and (LoTR).

GW undoubtedly were important in increasing the hobby games market overall. You only need to look at the number of people who fondly remember Talisman and other games from GW.

Whether they are so vital or effective now is another thing. There was a vibrant tabletop wargames hobby before WH. It won't collapse if WH goes away.

It would certainly be bad news for WH players and the companies that produce add-ons and alternatives for WH. It might be great news for the various F/SF games that are minor alternatives to GW -- Infinity, Warmachine, and Kings of War for instance. People drawn into wargames by 40K are probably more likely to go on to other SF type games.

I don't see how Historicals would be affected at all.

 -Loki- wrote:
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 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

This is the perfect time to try something else. Especially when, for some games out there, you can buy an entire 'army' for the cost of a single large GW model. A good example is Infinity. You can buy a 300pt force which will be perfectly playable for the forseeable future of the game for the cost of a Wraithknight. All rules and markers and templates are free. The most extra you'll need to buy is about 5 D20's. You can buy the Malifaux rulebook and a crew or two for the cost of a Wraithknight. All you need on top of that is a regular deck of cards, which is used in place of dice.

Ignoring games that are on the market because you have too much 40k already is nonsense.

Or Dark Age where for the price of a Knight, you could buy an entire warband and still have $20-$30 left over.

I really do have an incalculable amount of 40k miniatures (or nothing reasonable a couple days would be needed for inventory count...).

I have a vested interest in at least the 40k game and it's IP, GW maybe not as much.

The models I bought in "good faith" allow me to play pick-up games pretty much anywhere and the wargaming geek in me is content (other than the occasional pain in the rear new rules).

GW dying would put that in jeopardy and the question of who would buy their IP would be the big question.

I do agree there is no time like now try new things.

I still love Battletech "classic".
Federation Commander from Star Trek is a fun game.
X-wing I got a bit of everything from each wave and is one of the fastest games to get into for tabletop.
I bought into Robotech, will see if that pans out anytime soon.

The great thing is that the competition IS so much cheaper you can have a large and rewarding game for a fraction of the cost.

So you can say I am rather torn with GW, I want the situation of management and rules to improve.
The only thing they will listen to is loss of revenue.
They are rather slow to reacting to that however.
They are even worse at interpreting the reason for it.
So, roll the dice, hope they go under and hope someone better runs things?
Or they die altogether an hope for something like "Net Epic Armageddon"?http://www.net-armageddon.org/

Anyway, going to a tabletop gaming convention this weekend called "HotLead" http://www.hotlead.ca/ and I intend to not play a single game of 40k.

 brettz123 wrote:
I agree with most of your post but TSR did not go bust because of any of what you are talking about. At the end of the day they went out of business so suddenly because they published too many hard cover fiction books in the previous year that did not sell well and when their publisher demanded they buy them back they did not have the cash on hand to pay off the debt.

Now certainly everything you pointed out contributed to the situation but without the forced buy back I would guess TSR would have been around for a lot longer. So my guess is unless GW has a similar issue pop up you will either see a very slow demise over time or a continued loss of sales until they finally get they need to change how they do business.

Yes, TSR spent a couple of years cramming the book market with titles that weren't selling as well. When they told their current publisher they were dumping them to move to self publishing, the current publisher wisely excercised it's right to return all those books to TSR, rather than continue to eat them themselves. TSR lost millions.

The rise, fall, and aquisition by WOTC has actually been documented quite well. Check out '30 years of TSR' for a start. Very interesting reading.

It's not so much that there are parallels between TSR and GW, as their are parallels shared by all businesses seeking short term profit over long term goals. Generally speaking, it does not lead to a stable business in the future.

If GW are done with Specialist Games why not let them go? Cyanide did a good with Bloodbowl and the Confrontation world. Why not let then do BFG or Necromunda? As it stands GW are getting no money for this IP, licensing with have them get money for doing nothing.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Why not let then do BFG or Necromunda? As it stands GW are getting no money for this IP, licensing with have them get money for doing nothing.

Both of those games would require some kind of licensing of the art work and potential models resulting from the artwork in the 40K universe, GWs current top sell and have the potential to generate competition.

For the same reason they killed them off Wolfstan. The upper management saw the specialist games as competition for the core games (40k, WFB, LOTR), It wasn't about time and cost and effort as much as it was that those games (several of which were better than the current state of the big 3) took players away from the others. Their mistake IMO was that they assumed the players of those games would just throw it all out, stop playing them, and go back to buying the other 3.

For that reason, they'd see licensing them out as creating their own competition.

 Kyrolon wrote:
For the same reason they killed them off Wolfstan. The upper management saw the specialist games as competition for the core games (40k, WFB, LOTR), It wasn't about time and cost and effort as much as it was that those games (several of which were better than the current state of the big 3) took players away from the others. Their mistake IMO was that they assumed the players of those games would just throw it all out, stop playing them, and go back to buying the other 3.

For that reason, they'd see licensing them out as creating their own competition.

Which proves that GW's management never heard of Howard Moskowitz.

Variety sells. By reducing the number of systems available GW blew their own foot off.

Barfolomew wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
Why not let then do BFG or Necromunda? As it stands GW are getting no money for this IP, licensing with have them get money for doing nothing.

Both of those games would require some kind of licensing of the art work and potential models resulting from the artwork in the 40K universe, GWs current top sell and have the potential to generate competition.

But they don't don't have to do any work. They license it out (at no cost to them) and then get an income from the licensing. How on earth is having a CGI BFG going to affect sales of GW models. Gamers will still want models, this is a bonus.

If the game is done right you will also have non wargamers buy it. Ok they aren't going to buy GW stuff but they bought the CGI game, thus making it successful, which brings profit to the game maker, who will then likely bring out expansions or invest in other titles, thus paying GW more money.

I play Dogs of War and there are players of this system who never knew that it was based on a tabletop game, they just came on board because they liked it.

 -Loki- wrote:
You say that like its a bad thing Kroot. I'd be glad if no single company gained such a foothold again. While we do owe the current situation to GW, another company 'taking over' the majority of the market after them wouldn't be ideal. It would just strangle the market all over again.

Imagine a town with a potential of 12 wargamers. If all play the same game, no problem. Not even if they play another one in addition to that. They have a coommon ground to start from.
Now imagine a town with one SAGA player, one FoW player, one Warmachine fanatic and one Infinity player. Most likely they will never meet, never play a game and leave wargaming pretty soon.

Diversity can be bad if you never find a mate

 Wolfstan wrote:
But they don't don't have to do any work. They license it out (at no cost to them) and then get an income from the licensing. How on earth is having a CGI BFG going to affect sales of GW models. Gamers will still want models, this is a bonus.

I don't disagree with you, but I think GW is affraid someone else may offer cheaper/better quality models that 40K players would buy instead of theirs. Even for models that are completely different (BFG) I think GW is paranoid about their IP. I also think GW is too arrogant to let someone else take a run at one of their discontinued games. Imagine the threads if someone reboots a previously GW game and does a superior job, asking GW to hand over 40K to the new company for rules development.

Barfolomew wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
But they don't don't have to do any work. They license it out (at no cost to them) and then get an income from the licensing. How on earth is having a CGI BFG going to affect sales of GW models. Gamers will still want models, this is a bonus.

I don't disagree with you, but I think GW is affraid someone else may offer cheaper/better quality models that 40K players would buy instead of theirs. Even for models that are completely different (BFG) I think GW is paranoid about their IP. I also think GW is too arrogant to let someone else take a run at one of their discontinued games. Imagine the threads if someone reboots a previously GW game and does a superior job, asking GW to hand over 40K to the new company for rules development.

Ha, ha. Fair point

 Kroothawk wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
You say that like its a bad thing Kroot. I'd be glad if no single company gained such a foothold again. While we do owe the current situation to GW, another company 'taking over' the majority of the market after them wouldn't be ideal. It would just strangle the market all over again.

Imagine a town with a potential of 12 wargamers. If all play the same game, no problem. Not even if they play another one in addition to that. They have a coommon ground to start from.
Now imagine a town with one SAGA player, one FoW player, one Warmachine fanatic and one Infinity player. Most likely they will never meet, never play a game and leave wargaming pretty soon.

Diversity can be bad if you never find a mate

Right, because the vast majority of players out there play exactly one game system, and one game system only.

(Well, that might very well be the case for people who's favorite game is 40K, but around here, typical gamers have armies for multiple game systems, and the FLGS has nights dedicated to each of them. On any given Saturday, you'll see 40K, WHFB, Dropzone Commander, X-Wing, Attack Wing, Warmahordes, FOW, RPGs, MtG, and piles of boardgames being played. Malifaux, Infiniti, and Dark Age also show up. I personally have forces for four different tabletop wargame systems, and that's not really considered a lot around here.)


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Barfolomew wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
But they don't don't have to do any work. They license it out (at no cost to them) and then get an income from the licensing. How on earth is having a CGI BFG going to affect sales of GW models. Gamers will still want models, this is a bonus.

I don't disagree with you, but I think GW is affraid someone else may offer cheaper/better quality models that 40K players would buy instead of theirs. Even for models that are completely different (BFG) I think GW is paranoid about their IP. I also think GW is too arrogant to let someone else take a run at one of their discontinued games. Imagine the threads if someone reboots a previously GW game and does a superior job, asking GW to hand over 40K to the new company for rules development.

I bet GW management would have a minor conniption fit if another company profitably re-created Mordheim and/or Necromunda with a regular release of scenarios, new rules, new bands, new campaign ideas, new miniatures, etc.

I bet GW management would have a minor conniption fit if another company profitably re-created Mordheim and/or Necromunda with a regular release of scenarios, new rules, new bands, new campaign ideas, new miniatures, etc.

Ha, ha, that's crazy talk, why would a company want to make something people want and then support it...?

Barfolomew wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
But they don't don't have to do any work. They license it out (at no cost to them) and then get an income from the licensing. How on earth is having a CGI BFG going to affect sales of GW models. Gamers will still want models, this is a bonus.

I don't disagree with you, but I think GW is affraid someone else may offer cheaper/better quality models that 40K players would buy instead of theirs. Even for models that are completely different (BFG) I think GW is paranoid about their IP. I also think GW is too arrogant to let someone else take a run at one of their discontinued games. Imagine the threads if someone reboots a previously GW game and does a superior job, asking GW to hand over 40K to the new company for rules development.

They probably ARE paranoid about their IP. Blizzard has made quite a pretty penny off of repackaging it.

Vallejo has been selling the same paints since 2001 , as has coat,d,arms, this is long before today or the improved Citadel paint range came out.

So, no, paint has nothing to do with comparisons to GW release scdual.

What?

 azreal13 wrote:
What?

My thoughts exactly. Also, who left the door open and let him back in?

 sing your life wrote:
Vallejo has been selling the same paints since 2001 , as has coat,d,arms, this is long before today or the improved Citadel paint range came out.

So, no, paint has nothing to do with comparisons to GW release scdual.

When you look up the word "non sequitur" in the dictionary, the above quote, word for word, will be the definition.

Saldiven wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Vallejo has been selling the same paints since 2001 , as has coat,d,arms, this is long before today or the improved Citadel paint range came out.

So, no, paint has nothing to do with comparisons to GW release scdual.

When you look up the word "non sequitur" in the dictionary, the above quote, word for word, will be the definition.

A really funny comic .

 sing your life wrote:
Vallejo has been selling the same paints since 2001 , as has coat,d,arms, this is long before today or the improved Citadel paint range came out.

So, no, paint has nothing to do with comparisons to GW release scdual.

I have no idea what you are getting at.

I agree with the notion that it will be a huge blow to the community if GW goes under especially considering the example of TSR. I mean, it's basically impossible to play D&D these days.