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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 01:23:27
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Fresh-Faced New User
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This is not a thread for BotWD hate. It is to discuss it. I think it it not OP for several reasons
Mainly, it only affects magical attacks, so a large block of heavy cavalry could destroy it on the charge. Impact hits ruin its day,
as well as using multi-charges.
The BotWD only affects one unit, so if you have nothing that can kill that one unit, kill the rest of his army, and point deny your way to victory.
This strategy can be used be daemons.
Please post your opinions on this topic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 01:32:06
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Drakhun
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For what the banner does, it is incredibly cheap.
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DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 01:41:50
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Fresh-Faced New User
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The main thing that it protects against is that chaos lord with everything, including a magic weapon.
A spell like dwellers will still destroy that unit since it allows no saves of any kind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 01:47:55
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I like that you list one spell with no saves of any kind as some sort of proof that BotWD is fine. There are only a handful of spells in that category, all 6 dice spells. Granting 2+ ward against every single magic weapon and attack is insanity, plain and simple.
Warpstone weaponry? Useless.
Wood Elf Dryads? Useless.
Entire Chaos Daemon army? Useless.
All but what, 3? kill spells in the game? Useless.
Anvil of Vaul on the board? Pretty frelled.
Seriously, it's a badly designed and costed item. It's MR on super steroids, for a fraction of the cost, and can be taken on models that can't normally be singled out. It falls into the "indefensible but deal with it" category that very few things (like the afore mentioned Dwellers) fall into.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 02:04:07
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Drakhun
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Indeed, if you go to the Common Magic items and have a look at the Obsidian Lodestone, you will see that it gives you Magic Resistance 3. The BoTWD gives you magic resistance 5 for 5 points more, and it makes Dragons Stubborn, but how often do you see a dragon?
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DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 03:29:41
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Stubborn White Lion
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It's an under costed item, there's no denying that. I think what really grinds people is that it is the only the 2nd most OP item in the book. The Banner of Averlorn in conjunction with the Everqueen/lionstar is probably far more game breaking than the BoTWD in my opinion.
There are still a ton of ways around a Banner-star unit without even considering the test-or-die spells. High elves die to concentrated shooting and massed S3/S4 as well as anybody. Templates are the absolute bane of elves and points denial, whilst a pain in the ass, is something that good players need to be able to do.
Daemons players are the only ones who have any right to whine to the extent that we see on these kinds of forums.
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Warhammer is the right of all sentient nerds!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 04:04:21
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Furious Fire Dragon
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The other thing is if you break the unit in CC you can get rid of it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 04:26:49
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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What are the counters again?
Pit of shades and purple sun are only failed on a 6 (both init tests).
Dwellers is a strength test (4+ kills, 5+ vs white lions).
Or Final Transmutation (5+ kills models, 6+ kills characters).
So if you stick that banner on a block of white lions, you're packing the 3+ armor vs non-magical shooting and 2+ ward vs magical attacks, you're also limiting damage from dwellers, and you're showing up stubborn, so the unlucky round of combat doesn't break the unit and kill the banner.
What's the counter to a white lion block with the world dragon? As near as I can tell, the answer is don't fight it, don't shoot it, don't magic it, and hope it doesn't do too much damage.
Well, that's fine and good if it's a death star, but it doesn't need to be. For under 500 points, you can have a very effective beat stick that is super tough to deal with.
You shouldn't have game changing banners for 50 points.
At least make it a BSB only item.
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 04:45:35
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The banner is broken, that's for sure. Let's look at this:
**2+ ward vs. spell Wounds
**2+ ward vs. magic weapon Wounds
**2+ ward vs. magic attack Wounds
**12" stubborn on Dragons
50pts.
Magic Resistance 3, which gives a 3+ ward vs. spells to an entire unit costs 45. So for 5 pts more you get a 1+ more save more. That's a great deal. BUT it also works vs. magic weapons and attacks! That's just...unbelievably good. If one whole chunk of those was removed. Spells or weapons or magic attacks, the banner would still be undercosted by a lot. If two were removed, it would be about accurate. A 2+ ward vs. magic weapons for a whole unit for 50 pts is a decent buff. If can potentially make you immune to heroes/lords and since it's just 50pts, you can still get other items. If it was a 4+ ward I would argue it's still too cheap.
Dwarfs have a standard that is MR3 and it costs 45. They got a 5+ ward vs. shooting that costs 60. <--and they can't get any other magic items or casters, keep in mind. Ogres have a banner that is 60 and it makes you target a different unit with a spell--that's it, just spells, and only if you roll a 2+ on a D6.
No matter how you look at it the banner is vastly too cheap.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 10:25:38
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Agile Revenant Titan
In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout
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The banner would be fine if:
- There wasn't a whole army that exclusively uses Magical Attacks
- It couldn't be taken on a unit standard bearer (and perhaps the cost being boosted to 70+ pts)
The banner itself isn't really broken, what makes it OP is the metagame it's in, and the combinations HE can employ it in.
And comparing it to MR doesn't really work either, MR is overcosted in this edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 10:58:18
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Shadow wrote:
And comparing it to MR doesn't really work either, MR is overcosted in this edition.
Doesn't matter, armies have them in their army books, not just the BRB. You can't say well ONE army in the game has made Killing Blow cost what it really should. No, that means the other 11 are too cheap or too expensive. Not one army book is right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 13:35:59
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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BotWD makes any game vs. DoC a complete an utter joke, while also really neutering the poor Wood Elves who are reduced to only 2 viable combat units vs. the Banner unit.
Throwing Alarielle + BoA + BotWD into a unit of 20-24 Caucasian Lions, adding a brick of 20-24 Phoenix Guard, a bunch of shooting and 3 other Light Wizards is actually worse than last edition's Grey Knight silliness vs. Daemons.
I see that and I just shake my head and pack my army back up. No point in even playing that game as outside of Cacobomb, Daemons can't do anything.
What's even more frustrating, is that HE's don't need that kind of crap to defeat DoC since they're already better at magic, better shooters, better at the chaff game and can easily stay cannon proof, while also generally being better in the Movement phase to boot! (except vs. a heavy/mono-Slaanesh army)
The Banner of the World'sBiggestCrutch is simply a massive blight on the match-up and turns the game into a very predictable & boring as gak match-up.
At the very worst, the BotWD is the ultimate item for a Mage Bunker, as the HE player can safely sit back and chuck as many dice as they want without fear of annihilating the bulk of their unit through a miscast.
In an edition where Magic is king, that ability alone should make the banner a BSB only item.
The only magic item in the game more broken than the Banner is the Portalglyph, but that's more a case of it being the worst written item in the history of Fantasy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 13:42:37
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Agile Revenant Titan
In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout
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DukeRustfield wrote: The Shadow wrote: And comparing it to MR doesn't really work either, MR is overcosted in this edition.
Doesn't matter, armies have them in their army books, not just the BRB. You can't say well ONE army in the game has made Killing Blow cost what it really should. No, that means the other 11 are too cheap or too expensive. Not one army book is right.
I'm not sure you're getting me, MR is overcosted because: - It costs the same as the equivalent Ward Save, and Ward Saves are just as good or better in literally every situation for a given model. - There are very few dangerous spells that MR actually protects against. With a few exceptions, the most powerful magic spells are hexes/augments or ones that allow no ward saves, against which MR is useless. The only thing it has going for it is the stacking at the transferring from character to unit and vice versa, but even that is heavily outweighed by the above points. Magic Resistance should either be 10pts a level, work against Dwellers and the like or provide a bonus to dispelling as it used to. I actually think the last one is best. Sets it aside from other defensive abilities and makes the most sense.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/16 13:43:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 13:48:28
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Mighty Vampire Count
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goldknife wrote:This is not a thread for BotWD hate. It is to discuss it. I think it it not OP for several reasons
Mainly, it only affects magical attacks, so a large block of heavy cavalry could destroy it on the charge. Impact hits ruin its day,
as well as using multi-charges.
The BotWD only affects one unit, so if you have nothing that can kill that one unit, kill the rest of his army, and point deny your way to victory.
This strategy can be used be daemons.
Please post your opinions on this topic.
Do you use it?
the last local doubles tourney the High Elf player (with a "fun list" hahahah) took the Banner in one huge unit and very little else................was pretty devestating
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 15:31:12
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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If you don't think that banner is over-powered, then what do you think is over-powered?
I'd say that banner is the single most broken item in the game.
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 16:56:28
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
Connah's Quay, North Wales
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I think a Wood Elf Alter Lord with Bow of Athel Loren and Arcane Bodkins is FAR more Over-Power...I am sorry, I can't even type that without bursting into laughter. There is one magic item that I think is better then this piece of special snowflake and that is the Chalice of Chaos which turns cheap chaos champs into daemon princes (this may or may not be related to my opponents getting a Daemon prince in the last 4 games I have played him).
Seriously though, I recently added a white lion block with BotwD to my list of things my Wood Elves simply cannot deal with. Shoot them? 3+ save with usually a Ward Save from high magic or buffs from Life Magic. Charge them? All my best combat units have magical attacks. Re-direct them? High Elves are one f the best chaff killers I know, with a plethora of ranged attacks/Magic missiles to kill off chaff. Apart from 6 dicing dwellers what is your suggestion to dealing with them?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 17:13:34
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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HawaiiMatt wrote:If you don't think that banner is over-powered, then what do you think is over-powered?
I'd say that banner is the single most broken item in the game.
-Matt
I rate the Portalglyph as being more broken than the durpy banner, but that's simply because it's so piss-poorly worded that even an English major can't fathom that item out!
And even then, the 'Glyph is only barely ahead of the WorldCrutch Banner because of jerky shenanigans such as the Immortal Epidemius or "100% Unkillable Lord."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 19:56:01
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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It's not even just the banner, it's what can take it as well. White Lions are normally only weak to magic, so if you then give them a 2++ against all magic... yeah, where's the weakness of them again? On top of that, they effectively have S6 spears thanks to martial prowess which hit at I5 AND are stubborn AND have forest strider. Not only does this banner facilitate a bunch of deathstar builds, it screws an entire army over and it's ridiculously cheap. Essentially, it's a pinnacle of bad design - it massively penalises an entire race, allows some of the least fun builds in the game to work and it stops an otherwise extremely strong unit from being flat out OP by pushing them miles over the edge. Who cares if it's OP if it's not fun? Even then, it's clearly far too good which is why every single comp pack singles it out and even in uncomped events people literally build around High Elves in order to beat Everqueen double banner builds. When your race has two things which completely define the meta... yeah, sorry, that's blatantly OP.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/16 19:56:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 20:58:02
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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welshhoppo wrote:Indeed, if you go to the Common Magic items and have a look at the Obsidian Lodestone, you will see that it gives you Magic Resistance 3. The BoTWD gives you magic resistance 5 for 5 points more, and it makes Dragons Stubborn, but how often do you see a dragon?
And MR doesn't work against magic attacks/weapons, just magic spells.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/16 21:34:46
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It's irrelevant you think it's overcosted or undercosted.
MR costs what it costs. Armies are compared with one another based on their costs. Everyone has the same costs structures. If Crap Ability costs 100pts in every book in the game and Crap Ability Two costs 5pts in one army book, and they do the same thing, then Crap Ability Two is vastly undercosted. It may not matter much because people don't use them much, but it's still clearly undercosted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 00:03:57
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Drakhun
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streamdragon wrote: welshhoppo wrote:Indeed, if you go to the Common Magic items and have a look at the Obsidian Lodestone, you will see that it gives you Magic Resistance 3. The BoTWD gives you magic resistance 5 for 5 points more, and it makes Dragons Stubborn, but how often do you see a dragon?
And MR doesn't work against magic attacks/weapons, just magic spells.
Indeed, it was the closest thing I found. Maybe if it was 100 points and BSB only, then it would be okay. Or even if you had to have it on a dragon it would also be okay.
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DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 00:23:57
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Stubborn White Lion
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welshhoppo wrote:Indeed, it was the closest thing I found. Maybe if it was 100 points and BSB only, then it would be okay. Or even if you had to have it on a dragon it would also be okay.
This is silly. If it was 100 points then no one would ever take it. On the other hand if it had to be on a dragon riding character then it would also never be taken... because there is literally no way that can be done.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/17 00:29:07
Warhammer is the right of all sentient nerds!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 02:38:34
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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alex87 wrote: welshhoppo wrote:Indeed, it was the closest thing I found. Maybe if it was 100 points and BSB only, then it would be okay. Or even if you had to have it on a dragon it would also be okay.
This is silly. If it was 100 points then no one would ever take it. On the other hand if it had to be on a dragon riding character then it would also never be taken... because there is literally no way that can be done.
The problem with the BotWD is that there is no viable way to properly cost it...
Vs. Daemons & Wood Elves, it's easily worth 125-150pts for what it does.
On a unit of White Lions, it's probably worth about 75pts as it shores up their one huge weakness - namely magic missiles/direct damage & combat units such as Ethereals or a character bus.
On any other unit, it's probably worth only about 55pts.
In a mage bunker, it's again akin to MR5 thanks the miscast protection and probably creeping back up to the 75pts range worth of effectiveness.
The only sensible thing to be done with it is to remove the 'Magical Attacks' portion of it's protection, and up it's cost to 55-60pts so it's still BSB only and thus creates a choice between 'uber magic protection OR the rather disgusting +8 to-cast bubbles from Light through the Banner of Averlorn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 02:59:29
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Every item is worth fluctuating amounts depending on your target. But you don't get to reprice depending on who you're fighting. If you bought heavy armor vs. all S5+ units, you wasted your points. Botwd vs. a dwarf army that has zero magic items or anvils is absolute junk, because it literally does nothing--well, it's still +1 resolution.
When I saw it, I assumed they had made a typo and magic attacks shouldn't be there. Magic weapons is fine. Not every hero/lord will have them and even if they do, the rest of the unit may not. DD and magic missiles aren't that uber, though 2+ is still really good. But nothing should have wholesale resist to magic attacks. What it translates into, and this is no joke, is a 2+ ward save vs. wounds caused by [Army]. If you saw that, no matter who it was, you'd say that is absolutely uncalled for. Whether it was Dwarfs vs. Skaven or HE vs. DE or whatever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 04:06:41
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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I'd Gladly take that banner at 100 points.
The only difference is that the death star shifts from white lions to dragon princes. That way, the BSB has 2+ armor and 2+ ward vs magical effects.
As for most broken, I'll still say BotWD over portaglyph.
Why? Because the banner totally hoses the army that could take the glyph.
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 05:07:37
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Eyjio wrote:It's not even just the banner, it's what can take it as well. White Lions are normally only weak to magic, so if you then give them a 2++ against all magic... yeah, where's the weakness of them again? On top of that, they effectively have S6 spears thanks to martial prowess which hit at I5 AND are stubborn AND have forest strider. Not only does this banner facilitate a bunch of deathstar builds, it screws an entire army over and it's ridiculously cheap. Essentially, it's a pinnacle of bad design - it massively penalises an entire race, allows some of the least fun builds in the game to work and it stops an otherwise extremely strong unit from being flat out OP by pushing them miles over the edge. Who cares if it's OP if it's not fun? Even then, it's clearly far too good which is why every single comp pack singles it out and even in uncomped events people literally build around High Elves in order to beat Everqueen double banner builds. When your race has two things which completely define the meta... yeah, sorry, that's blatantly OP.
I totally agree with this post.
And to me that's the problem with the Banner of the World Dragon. Its limits are far too broad, as well. If it ONLY protected against spells and their effects (Dwellers, etc. excepted) then that would be something. But all magic weapons affects almost all combat Hero and Lord builds as well as serious units like Skullcrushers. The protection against Miscasts is also over the top, since (as previously mentioned in this thread) it invites the Deathstar Mage Bunker approach. Then because it is NOT a BSB only item, it invites combination with Alarielle and her banner which is, again as previously mentioned, ridiculous.
And it's just not fun. My main army is High Elves, and I have not found it fun even playing WITH them. And, strategy and alpha male machismo aside, this is supposed to be a game, and thus is supposed to be an enjoyable experience.
So, responding to the original topic: I just completely agree that it is the "pinnacle of bad design."
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5000 pts High Elves 4000 pts, Warriors of Chaos 4000 pts, Dwarfs 3000 pts, Wood Elves and Greenskins too
Thought for the ages: What is the Riddle of Steel? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 10:40:34
Subject: The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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It's the miscast protection that really gets me. A nigh-invulnerable unit is one thing. A nigh-invulnerable unit throwing out 6-diced spells with near-complete impunity is just bs. GW needs to FAQ that gak and hit it hard with the nerf bat.
2++ vs magic WEAPONS and direct damage / magic missile spells.
No miscast protection. No blanket immunity to demons. No blanket immunity to magical warmachines and non-spell shooting attacks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 13:34:51
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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DukeRustfield wrote:Every item is worth fluctuating amounts depending on your target. But you don't get to reprice depending on who you're fighting. If you bought heavy armor vs. all S5+ units, you wasted your points. Botwd vs. a dwarf army that has zero magic items or anvils is absolute junk, because it literally does nothing--well, it's still +1 resolution.
When I saw it, I assumed they had made a typo and magic attacks shouldn't be there. Magic weapons is fine. Not every hero/lord will have them and even if they do, the rest of the unit may not. DD and magic missiles aren't that uber, though 2+ is still really good. But nothing should have wholesale resist to magic attacks. What it translates into, and this is no joke, is a 2+ ward save vs. wounds caused by [Army]. If you saw that, no matter who it was, you'd say that is absolutely uncalled for. Whether it was Dwarfs vs. Skaven or HE vs. DE or whatever.
Just a quick disagreement - it's REALLY good against dwarfs actually, because literally every item with a rune counts as being magical. That means if a cannon takes rune of forging, an organ gun takes rune of accuracy, whatever, ALL attacks from it count as magical. It's essentially war machine protection for a unit which is throwing out unstoppable spells with impunity thanks to the 2+ ward they get and, if it's white lions, you kinda need those machines to get through 3+ armour because you aren't beating them in combat. Totally agree with everything else you said though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 20:56:29
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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DukeRustfield wrote:Every item is worth fluctuating amounts depending on your target. But you don't get to reprice depending on who you're fighting. If you bought heavy armor vs. all S5+ units, you wasted your points. Botwd vs. a dwarf army that has zero magic items or anvils is absolute junk, because it literally does nothing--well, it's still +1 resolution.
When I saw it, I assumed they had made a typo and magic attacks shouldn't be there. Magic weapons is fine. Not every hero/lord will have them and even if they do, the rest of the unit may not. DD and magic missiles aren't that uber, though 2+ is still really good. But nothing should have wholesale resist to magic attacks. What it translates into, and this is no joke, is a 2+ ward save vs. wounds caused by [Army]. If you saw that, no matter who it was, you'd say that is absolutely uncalled for. Whether it was Dwarfs vs. Skaven or HE vs. DE or whatever.
The point is, while everything essentially fluctuates to a point, nothing in the game has the disproportionate rate of this silly banner.
Heavy armour for example is typically 2-5pts/model, so your cost vs. effectiveness ratio doesn't fluctuate that much.
The banner on the other hand typically goes from being slightly undercosted vs. the likes of O&G's/Ogres when used to bunker a mage, to a game-changer vs. the likes of WoC/Dwarfs/Skaven/ VC's, to an instant 'easy button' vs. WE's/ DoC.
No other item in the game comes close to how disproportionate the BotWD's cost is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 22:03:49
Subject: Re:The Banner Of The World Dragon, not that OP
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Eyjio wrote:
Just a quick disagreement - it's REALLY good against dwarfs actually, because literally every item with a rune counts as being magical.
I understand how the rules work. Dwarfs don't need offensive weapon runes. Hammerers are still stupid good without them. Ironbreakers are still stupid good without them. Drakes are. Gyros are. You can still have your runepriests with bonuses to dispel, banners, armor. Only if you're taking a rune item and trying to beat someone on the head with it, which Dwarfs absolutely don't have to do. It's a ward vs. wounds caused by.
Heavy armour for example is typically 2-5pts/model, so your cost vs. effectiveness ratio doesn't fluctuate that much.
It can be up to 25%. In a 2K point game, 500pts doing absolutely nothing whatsoever is an awful lot.
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