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Hey Dakka!

Ok, this may seem a little crazy but the idea sort of hit me and I wanted to know what the community thought.

So, over the past little while I've seen a few thread and heard a few people talking about the potential demise of Games Workshop. BEFORE THIS BECOMES A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THEY ARE OR ARN'T/ WILL OR WON'T GO BELLY UP that's not what is really important. Let's assume, as it is possible to happen, GW goes under and 40k stops being supported and the models drop out of production. I know this means other miniature companies will be able to fill the hole in the market and produce proxies a lot easier and a lot close to the themes that 40k armies have without having to worry about legal troubles, but I really like a lot of the sculpts GW has to offer and would hate to see these models go. Which is where my plan comes in ...

Is it too crazy to buy a single box of some of the more basic sculpts (chimera chassis, Rhino chassis, Tactical squad, Ork boyz, etc) as in all the things which could provide an adequate base for unit in the rest of the given army, and just store them as a model to make moulds out of. That way, should one want to continue to build your ork army after all the models are OOP, you can cast the individual pieces of what ever set and continue to build the models.

I know casting itself is a sensitive subject, but assuming all the models are OOP, its ok yea? anyways, is this too paranoid of an idea?

Pic Related xD



Discuss away community!
Cheers,
Jpog

I'm going to say yes, it probably is a bit too crazy.

Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff. All the assets would still end up belonging to someone.

It wouldn't really be any different to if you were to recast loads of stuff now.

 Smacks wrote:
Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff. All the assets would still end up belonging to someone.

It wouldn't really be any different to if you were to recast loads of stuff now.

Well, it is arguably okay to recast the Chimera kit in any case, being as how as a toy its unregistered design rights would have already expired in the UK. But that's just a hypothetical.

should be fine. If not a bit wasteful. But you could be sitting on a possible gold mine by doing so.

Yep, it's entirely paranoid.

People still misunderstand how big of a player GW (especially 40K) is in the small pond of miniature gaming. So when a company in a position like that goes bankrupt or sells off, whomever purchases it would be doing so to claim that market share (and look to improve it). So the game and the models won't be going away even if the company is sold, and therefore there's no need to freak out at all.

Even in a worse case scenario, where a company buys the rights just for the IP to make video games, etc. There would still be plenty of stock available to make all the last second purchases you wanted, not to mention that a secondary market would exist for years where you could buy unopened GW product.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff. All the assets would still end up belonging to someone.

It wouldn't really be any different to if you were to recast loads of stuff now.

Well, it is arguably okay to recast the Chimera kit in any case, being as how as a toy its unregistered design rights would have already expired in the UK. But that's just a hypothetical.

It is probably not okay. Design rights are not rights to reproduction. Recasting would likely infringe the copyright of whoever owns the original sculpt. Design rights would only really be relevant if you were producing your own models based on the Chimera 'design'. Recasing someone else's work is a step beyond that.

Yeah, the models aren't going anywhere even in a worst case scenario, the moulds and rights to produce would be sold off and continue to be produced for popular lines (and stock of less popular lines would probably still be around for some time). Absolutely no reason to buy extra just in case.

Unless you think the real doomsday is coming, of course, and just want a stocked gaming room in your underground bunker to keep your mind off the zombies...

It doesn't make much sense unless your army depends on "rare" models. Even if GW somehow went out of business without any warning and nobody bought the IP and manufacturing equipment GW's huge production volume means that you'll easily be able to get basic kits like Rhinos and tactical squads long after they've gone out of production. Even relatively rare stuff, like old kits that have been OOP for years because hardly anyone bought them, are still available if you're patient and willing to spend money. I wouldn't bother building a stockpile until we see more credible signs of GW going out of business in the near future (as opposed to being in long-term trouble), and that's something we don't have yet.

Now, this kind of changes a bit if you depend on rare models since they're going to be harder to get once they're out of production, and a lot more likely to go out of production before 40k as a whole does. In that case it might be worth investing in some spare copies for future use. If nothing else it might save you some money if you don't have to deal with speculators buying up the entire supply so they can sell it to you later at double the price.

In ten years time, we'll be posting pics of our literal battle bunkers.

This is a bit too much. Like others said, even if GW goes out tomorrow and their IP is gone you'll still have product. And on top of that, if stock of one item goes down, others are going to do all that illegal recasting for you (and for your money) instead of you doing it yourself. Recasters already exist, they would still be there if GW went under. Although I'm not sure if they would benefit from less competition or suffer because of GW's influence in the miniatures market.

GW has no real debt. So you can probably start your crazy plan after they lose money for a couple quarters and take on debt to make up the difference.

You'll have ample warning time.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff. All the assets would still end up belonging to someone.

It wouldn't really be any different to if you were to recast loads of stuff now.

Well, it is arguably okay to recast the Chimera kit in any case, being as how as a toy its unregistered design rights would have already expired in the UK. But that's just a hypothetical.

Tell me more about this, and how it came to be, and how "sure" it is. Does it affect the old Rhino or Land Raider kits, or Leman Russ MBT?

As for the OP, yes, it's crazy. Even if GW were to implode tomorrow, someone would buy their IP and manufacturing and likely keep the majority of profitable kits in circulation.

If GW would go out of business, i am sure that someone will pick up the IP, or someone will take over the company.
This could be good news depending on who buys or takes over the company.

Maybe some of us would get outside more..

 Smacks wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff. All the assets would still end up belonging to someone.

It wouldn't really be any different to if you were to recast loads of stuff now.

Well, it is arguably okay to recast the Chimera kit in any case, being as how as a toy its unregistered design rights would have already expired in the UK. But that's just a hypothetical.

It is probably not okay. Design rights are not rights to reproduction. Recasting would likely infringe the copyright of whoever owns the original sculpt. Design rights would only really be relevant if you were producing your own models based on the Chimera 'design'. Recasing someone else's work is a step beyond that.

You misunderstand. Toys are arguably not protected by copyright in the UK. The sculpt would not be "art" it would be an industrial design.

You better find a white-hot team of IP lawyers before you test that.

BairdEC wrote:
You better find a mildly competant team of IP lawyers before you test that.

Given their showing in the Chapterhouse case, I fixed that for you...

Let's assume that GW and it's game go completely out of business because whomever buys the rights decides to horde them or drastically change the IP to be video games instead of table top miniatures. Many players would drop their GW games and move to other games because they aren't supported or promoted and thus die.

If this were to happen, the market would be flooded in the near future with people unloading a game they are unable to play. Those who wish to collect and play the now OOP game, could do so in the near future with little effort. Only after several decades would the product become of such value that any hording now would see a payback.

The only reason to purchase models you don't intend to immediately use is if they are going OOP or you get a sweat deal.

IF GW closed shop tomorrow, someone would be the rights to their gak and keep selling it.

BairdEC wrote:
You better find a white-hot team of IP lawyers before you test that.

Bear in mind, I am not endorsing recasting, saying that it won't provoke litigation, nor saying that it is an unambiguous area of law.

What I am referring to is an expert report that came out in the GW v CHS case wherein pre-eminent UK law professor Lionel Bently, specializing in and advising the government on intellectual property law, opined that it is likely that in the UK Games Workshop's miniatures would be considered toys and therefore not protected by copyright, but rather as industrial designs.

Industrial designs follow different rules, and as far as I am aware (and UK law is not really my thing), an industrial design right provides a 5 year period of exclusivity that can be renewed twice if the design is registered, providing a maximum of 15 years of exclusive use. If this is the case, as Professor Bently opined, any GW 'toy' that has been on the market for 15 years would basically be up for grabs. Now, as far as I am aware, GW has registered none of its products as industrial designs ever, meaning that the time period is probably more like 5 years.

Again, I am not a lawyer, and I am merely referring to an expert report produced pro-bono by Professor Bently in the Games Workshop v Chapterhouse Studios lawsuit.

If there is demand for the kits, somebody will make them. If there isn't demand, then you can buy the stuff second hand for pennies, just like any other old mini.

Plus, GW isn't disappearing. They may change ownership, but they make too much money selling space marines to disappear like Keyser Söze.

At least those direct only kits like the Wave Serpent might gain more value than those stocked heavily are retailers. I should be set!

As a Guard player, there are better 3rd party alternatives available anyways.

Biggest worry I'd have if GW died is that the local scene for hobby wargaming in the UK at least would die in many regions. We just don't have much of a network of independent stores. GW has a shop in nearly every major city or very large town whilst coverage of independents is much more hit and miss with a good few of those being very small scale operations where wargaming is only a tiny part of the inventory and no space for gaming.

UK relies strongly on its local clubs; which are sadly very hard to network once there is no local store and once you leave school/university.

Whilst you could argue that without GW it would free up room for competition I just don't see it happening - sadly at present its just not all that attractive to run a niche market highstreet shop; the only way to run is to get online and network larger sales and even then you'll have trouble (rates and rent are just far too high unless you site yourself well out in the sticks where many won't want to be caught walking at 9pm after a nights gaming).


UK side I see GW as a huge market tool that uses decades of marketing and brand name to get people into the hobby - take that away and we'd have a huge market gap. PP could fill it but they'd have to invest a lot and I suspect other games manufacturers would also find that they'd have to seriously up their advertising to really get a wider user base. At present GW does a lot of that - it draws in the new people (even if they don't game GW games it draws them into the whole concept of miniature wargames).

You'll do just fine in the UK thanks to your population density and the internet.

I disagree about the clubs. They are pretty easy to find these days. Thanks to the Internet, any club worth its salt has a website and/or FaceBook page and even forums. There are also plenty of regional wargame shows where local clubs will exhibit. It won't be hard to find a club in most areas in the UK even if GW did go down the pan.

Alot of gw's assests would be invested in plastic moulds and machinery. Anyome buying gw if they failed would be buying the ip and production capabilites.

It's the resin FW stuff that i would imagien would be more in damger of disappearing if gw failed.

 Smacks wrote:
Just because a company goes out of business doesn't mean it will suddenly be legal to recast their stuff. All the assets would still end up belonging to someone.

It wouldn't really be any different to if you were to recast loads of stuff now.

This.

If a company goes belly up, it's property get's sold off. Even if there isn't an immidiate buyer (and there would be, if only to use the IP in things like videogames, books, boardgames, etc) then GW's creditors or stockholders would end up with ownership.

There will not soon be time where making and selling GW products without consent is possible.

weeble1000 wrote:


Bear in mind, I am not endorsing recasting, saying that it won't provoke litigation, nor saying that it is an unambiguous area of law.

What I am referring to is an expert report that came out in the GW v CHS case wherein pre-eminent UK law professor Lionel Bently, specializing in and advising the government on intellectual property law, opined that it is likely that in the UK Games Workshop's miniatures would be considered toys and therefore not protected by copyright, but rather as industrial designs.

Industrial designs follow different rules, and as far as I am aware (and UK law is not really my thing), an industrial design right provides a 5 year period of exclusivity that can be renewed twice if the design is registered, providing a maximum of 15 years of exclusive use. If this is the case, as Professor Bently opined, any GW 'toy' that has been on the market for 15 years would basically be up for grabs. Now, as far as I am aware, GW has registered none of its products as industrial designs ever, meaning that the time period is probably more like 5 years.

Again, I am not a lawyer, and I am merely referring to an expert report produced pro-bono by Professor Bently in the Games Workshop v Chapterhouse Studios lawsuit.

I believe that this is also a fallout of the Lucasfilm verdict (vs the guy who sculpted the stormtrooper armour), where all of that was ruled under design rights and not copyright. There is mention of toys in the judgement. So under the same understanding you can make stormtrooper toys and probably most of the older star wars toys in the UK.