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 Daveh wrote:
Hi Melcavuk

Can you tell me the str of the Kill Kannon?

This week's WD says Str 8 large blast on page 24.

Yes, you can reroll results of 1,4,5,6 when you have a Boss pole, and its useful for small mobs too.

If you have less than 10 people in the mob then a roll of 4,5,6 you autofail normally, so the reroll to a 2-3 whilst taking hits means you stay in the fight.

Obviously 1 is an auto fail unless you're in combat, so 2-3 again can keep you in the fight.

RedNoak wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

TableTopJosh wrote:
The changes are whatever, a slight buff there a slight nerf there, its just sitting weird because its not what must of us were expecting.

Really? Because to me, this release looks rather predictable...

They changed invulnerable saves to be consistent with other armies.
They generally buffed weak units and nerfed the stronger ones.
They added more random tables / random values.
They changed the weirdboy to be consistent with other psykers.
They included a couple of things that reference back to the 1st/2nd edition books.
They gave us a range of moderately good ranged anti-armour options.

not really...
no other army cant get invuls
boyz got nerfed, lootaz got buffed
meh -.-
still got his own chart and way of gettin charges
like no mobrule
wich anti armour option are you talking about? big guns? those things competing with buffed lootaz, flashgitz, looted/battlewagons, dreads and kanz?


i'm really struggling to find any good new thing that didnt nerfed an old rule...

just take the stormboyz example... they are much cheaper now and can be taken in larger numbers! but are much more slower and suffer ALOT of self-inflicted damage
there's no real win here...

 Melcavuk wrote:

Nope, breaking heads is the result every is dreading, the Nob beating the bejesus out of his own mob to keep them in the fight (D6 str 4 hits). Essentially the Nob/Boss beats up his own boys, the mob takes the hits, and they keep in the fight. It protects the nob/character from taking hits |rerolls that result) or the mob fleeing if they arent in combat.

by the way...
1. is the killkannon still str7 24"?
2. and what happens if the nob is the only surviving model? he beats himself to death?

Wow! Greatminds

1. is the killkannon still str7 24"?

24 inch, STR7 ap3, large blade, Ordinance

2. and what happens if the nob is the only surviving model? he beats himself to death?

2-3 results on mob rules cannot hurt Ork characters, if the unit rolls this and is solely comprised of Ork characters its an auto pass

Have the Buzzsaw and Bibbomm on Deffkoptas changed at all?

RedNoak wrote:
wich anti armour option are you talking about? big guns? those things competing with buffed lootaz, flashgitz, looted/battlewagons, dreads and kanz?

Mekgunz are cheaper than Flashgitz, Battlewagons, Dreads and Kans.
They also have better survivability than Lootas. (T7 3+ save)

Can regular meks take KFF?

 Melcavuk wrote:

2-3 results on mob rules cannot hurt Ork characters, if the unit rolls this and is solely comprised of Ork characters its an auto pass

why cant the 2-3 result hurt characters?

the rule states (your quote):

2-3
If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test.

it says the UNIT suffers

and if you refer to this:

Breaking Heads: The mob’s leader knocks a few heads together until the ladz settle down and get back in the fight.

than you could also argue, only mobs with at least 3 models (1 nob + 2 nonNobs) are affected by this result

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Have the Buzzsaw and Bibbomm on Deffkoptas changed at all?

Both look the same

This army is going to be great. Lets settle down guys.

We are having issue because people are in that difficult period where the various wish lists and rumors are proven wrong and folks are grieving.

Our threat ranges for charging in or out of vehicles are fantastic now. Ard Boyz are going to be a very good option.

The biggest issue for many is the removal of the various troop slot manipulations. Those are still possible with unbound lists. If your group doesn't allow it, that is a you thing, don't blame GW.

Others are complaining about the need for multiple FOC to maximize the heavy selections. If your group is unnecessarily restrictive and arbitrarily chopping out rules from the core system, why blame GW for not helping you out? Did you email them with the litany of changes you and your friends have made to the game so they could tailor the book to your experiences?

Within an unrestricted environment, this book is awesome.

RedNoak wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

2-3 results on mob rules cannot hurt Ork characters, if the unit rolls this and is solely comprised of Ork characters its an auto pass

why cant the 2-3 result hurt characters?

the rule states (your quote):

2-3
If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test.

it says the UNIT suffers

and if you refer to this:

Breaking Heads: The mob’s leader knocks a few heads together until the ladz settle down and get back in the fight.

than you could also argue, only mobs with at least 3 models (1 nob + 2 nonNobs) are affected by this result

If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. These hits are Randomly Allocated, but cannot be allocated to Ork characters (any excess hits are lost). If the unit does not include any Ork characters, it fails the Morale check or Pinning test

RedNoak wrote:

the rule states (your quote):

Really? You're gonna do this? Rules lawyer the one person with the actual book based on his own paraphrased info?

 Melcavuk wrote:
1. is the killkannon still str7 24"?

24 inch, STR7 ap3, large blade, Ordinance

2. and what happens if the nob is the only surviving model? he beats himself to death?

2-3 results on mob rules cannot hurt Ork characters, if the unit rolls this and is solely comprised of Ork characters its an auto pass

Aren't ork Nobs characters? therefore a unit of Nobs or Meganobs cannot take the hits and simply autopass unless its a 1?
is that right?
I thought ork nobs had become characters at some point recently? (i mainly model, but gona play more this dex - i hope)

Hmm
im thinking (as i like dred lists) that combining the IA dred mob with units from the new dex could make some lovely lists. I really like the idea of adding plenty of lobbas/mek guns to an IA list with dreds as troops.

I keep despising the new stuff i read;
Like the new ramshackle = full of fail - old rule was wicked fun, new rule seems meh, even if the new rule is mathematically superior its just dull. i loved kareen.
Mob rule seems poor, but still 50/50 as to what i think
The overall cutting of cool ideas, simply to use them as dataslates(money makers), IE, biker troops, kan troops(hoping) etc...

Overall i dislike the approach GW took which seems aimed at primarily making profit, but as we are yet to use the dex and see it fully i am hoping there are plenty of viable options to give me a fluffy yet fun and competitive in some sense.

Just want to say Thanks to all those who have the dex and have been sharing

Boss Nobz are characters, unfortunately Nobz Squads only contain a single Boss Nob, the rest are Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

the rule states (your quote):

Really? You're gonna do this? Rules lawyer the one person with the actual book based on his own paraphrased info?

I appreciate the faith, and yes that was my summary of the rule that missed a bit off because I was answering questions quickly.

 PhillyT wrote:
This army is going to be great. Lets settle down guys.

We are having issue because people are in that difficult period where the various wish lists and rumors are proven wrong and folks are grieving.

Our threat ranges for charging in or out of vehicles are fantastic now. Ard Boyz are going to be a very good option.

The biggest issue for many is the removal of the various troop slot manipulations. Those are still possible with unbound lists. If your group doesn't allow it, that is a you thing, don't blame GW.

Others are complaining about the need for multiple FOC to maximize the heavy selections. If your group is unnecessarily restrictive and arbitrarily chopping out rules from the core system, why blame GW for not helping you out? Did you email them with the litany of changes you and your friends have made to the game so they could tailor the book to your experiences?

Within an unrestricted environment, this book is awesome.

In an unrestricted enviroment this book will be a small green speedbump... The amount of cheese that can be thrown around in an "unrestricted enviroment" is terrible.
Trying to blame the gamers for GWs lack of balance is just stupid.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Boss Nobz are characters, unfortunately Nobz Squads only contain a single Boss Nob, the rest are Infantry.

ah gak that would have been awesome! Nob squads who never run and just give each other some big nasty threats and goads

im really liking the idea of loads of 3 man MANZ squads in trukks. i loved the MANZ missile before and now am thinking to bring plenty!

 Melcavuk wrote:
Boss Nobz are characters, unfortunately Nobz Squads only contain a single Boss Nob, the rest are Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

the rule states (your quote):

Really? You're gonna do this? Rules lawyer the one person with the actual book based on his own paraphrased info?

I appreciate the faith, and yes that was my summary of the rule that missed a bit off because I was answering questions quickly.

Good god man learn to read back instead of spamming your questions endlessly.

Could go with Missile trukks:

12 x Tankbustas, Trukk with Rokkit - 160 Points, Durable as paper but its firing 13 rokkits a turn, 12 of which have tank hunter.

 jhnbrg wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
This army is going to be great. Lets settle down guys.

We are having issue because people are in that difficult period where the various wish lists and rumors are proven wrong and folks are grieving.

Our threat ranges for charging in or out of vehicles are fantastic now. Ard Boyz are going to be a very good option.

The biggest issue for many is the removal of the various troop slot manipulations. Those are still possible with unbound lists. If your group doesn't allow it, that is a you thing, don't blame GW.

Others are complaining about the need for multiple FOC to maximize the heavy selections. If your group is unnecessarily restrictive and arbitrarily chopping out rules from the core system, why blame GW for not helping you out? Did you email them with the litany of changes you and your friends have made to the game so they could tailor the book to your experiences?

Within an unrestricted environment, this book is awesome.

In an unrestricted enviroment this book will be a small green speedbump... The amount of cheese that can be thrown around in an "unrestricted enviroment" is terrible.
Trying to blame the gamers for GWs lack of balance is just stupid.

You aren't just referring to an unrestricted environment, you are referring to an unrestrictive environment populated by D-bags. The only time there is a requirement to put massive restrictions on the BRB is when you do not trust your fellow players. If you don't trust them, play a balanced list and the whole one FOC/no unbound list. If you have friends you trust, play themed unbound lists. Unbound was made precisely for bike and dredd lists.

 PhillyT wrote:
This army is going to be great. Lets settle down guys.

Our threat ranges for charging in or out of vehicles are fantastic now. Ard Boyz are going to be a very good option.

So you suggest to play 'ardboyz in Trukks or Battlewagons?
Sluggas or Shootas? Open-topped or 'ard cased DT?
I don't think it's a very good option but you should try to give us more insight about your strategy here

I am really starting to loose all faith in dakka dakka. Maybe I just need to stay off news and rumors because literally every news and rumors thread is full of negative games workshop bashing and hatered. This release is in line with space marines nids and guard. If you have such a big problem with the game just quit and do something else with your time. I don't want to hear that you are financially invested. If you hate the game that much it sounds like you lost your investment. Cut your losses and move on with life. End rant.

How does one randomly allocate wounds.

 PhillyT wrote:


Our threat ranges for charging in or out of vehicles are fantastic now. Ard Boyz are going to be a very good option.

I was thinking about running Ard Boyz in Trukks, because I've got two unopened Ork Battleforces that I've been hanging on to until I figured out what to do with them (e.g. when the codex hits). I've got all the bits (two trukks and 40 Ard Boyz with various gubbins) and I'm rearing to go, esp with the kombi-skorchas. But honestly I'm really not sure, lol.

These rules are pretty gak. I'm still debating on whether or not I'm just going to sell these two unopened boxes of on-sprue boyz not even bothering buying 7th ed or the codex (that's like $130 right there back in my pocket). I realize that there are two nice changes with Ard Boyz, in particular the fact that they removed the one unit limit and they did increase charge distance. But there's also no Waaagh.

So I guess if you think this is a great option, sell me. Because I'm seriously on the fence and I've already got the bits for exactly that option. I still wasn't sure what I was going to do with the bikes, maybe put a painboy on one, but I'm not sure how the hell I'm going to model it now that the old model is gone and the new one is monopose (not compatible with biker model).

rothrich wrote:
I am really starting to loose all faith in dakka dakka. Maybe I just need to stay off news and rumors because literally every news and rumors thread is full of negative games workshop bashing and hatered. This release is in line with space marines nids and guard. If you have such a big problem with the game just quit and do something else with your time. I don't want to hear that you are financially invested. If you hate the game that much it sounds like you lost your investment. Cut your losses and move on with life. End rant.

People don't hate the game. Infact they care about it so much that they want to make it better. Telling negative critisism =/= hates the game, negative critisism=being honest.

If you care about something don't lie to it.

 Bonzofever wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
This army is going to be great. Lets settle down guys.

Our threat ranges for charging in or out of vehicles are fantastic now. Ard Boyz are going to be a very good option.

So you suggest to play 'ardboyz in Trukks or Battlewagons?
Sluggas or Shootas? Open-topped or 'ard cased DT?
I don't think it's a very good option but you should try to give us more insight about your strategy here

A couple units in trukks, but more in battle wagons. At 10 points, hard boyz are still decent, especially with the improvements to their charge range allowing them to actually get into combat. Threat distances are now pretty close to what they were under 5th edition, with an average range for wagon and trukk boyz being around 25"!

12 hard boyz in a trukk run around 200 points with a boarding plank, but if they aren't destroyed, you will be getting into combat on turn 2 every time. Swamp the board with them and they do fine. The only issue now is that the open topped trukks whack them with a S4 hit if it explodes. Normally you lose half your boyz. Hard boyz will at least be able to weather than and only lose 3.

I am planning on running at least 2 trukks of boyz with sluggas, one being hard boyz. I need to paint up another 6 hard boyz to get two full trukks worth. Wagons are probably an even better option since you can stuff 20 hard boyz in there and are more likely to survive the journey.

Either way, people are ignoring the massive boost to charge ranges and obsessing over the death other their wish lists, which is totally normal at this phase (after the first initial confirmed rumor wave). People will recover and see that this book is a significant improvement over the last one and will be a good mid level codex.

 TedNugent wrote:
How does one randomly allocate wounds.

Page 35, BRB covers it.

I think rokkit spam going to be the only really viable list this edition.

At least now instead of big shootaz which did nothing 90% of the time, we can use rokkits that do nothing 90% of the time but can do it to vehicles.

Tank hunter allows us to only do nothing 80% of the time, haha.



How much is a base russ? I'm just wondering how a BW with 'ard case and rokkits compare.

I'm trying to figure out how to make vehicles in this edition work. My main point is, I REALLY do not like open topped anymore for three reasons.

1) It robs us of the durability presented by the changes to the damage chart. An open topped BW goes big on a 5 up instead of a 4 up. I'd rather only explode on a 6 (or not explode at all if someone gets side armor... which isn't hard).

2) Being an assault vehicle is no longer an asset. Trying to speed forward and hop out and assault just isn't working anymore. It hasn't worked for a long time. Against any competent player, you will hop out, kill 60 points of kroot, and watch your unit evaporate. The insane inflation competitive armies have seen in damage output, particularly close ranged, means no amount of boyz will live long outside of their metal bawkz.

3) Getting close to an enemy is just asking to die thanks to No Escape. Hell, sometimes you can't avoid watching your supposedly 'safe' boyz die, as some stupid helldrake passes over. Being open topped makes it even easier for some jerk with a flamer to toast expensive specialists you were trying to protect in a trukk or wagon.



So back to my main thoughts. Lootaz being moved to heavy support Suuuuuuuuuucks. I think Tank Huntaz will be our go to unit now. Big Gunz or lootaz will be personal choice. Battlewagons will disappear unless you're taking meganobz. We just don't have the slots to allow battlewagons.

(Yes, rules say unlimited detatchments blah blah blah. But as a competitive player who wants to try to bring some balance to this hopeless game, I'm trying to limit this to one force org. As I've said over and over, unlimited detachments helps orks... but it helps other powerful armies WAAAAAAAY more. Do not go down this road).

On the bright side those explode results would be against an ard boy'z 4+ armor save, but on the down side, you have to take a pinning test against the new chart if you fail on a leadership 7.

Str 4 hits across the board would work also work out to 25% casualties, which could force a leadership test, so even with 'eavy armor it looks like you could be facing 2 leadership tests with the new chart for every trukk explodes result.

 tarnish wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
Boss Nobz are characters, unfortunately Nobz Squads only contain a single Boss Nob, the rest are Infantry.

Good god man learn to read back instead of spamming your questions endlessly.

says the pointless poster, who has been filling a thread with pointless posts making it twice as long to read it through. how about a deal? stop posting non-sense and we'll all read it through in its much slimmer version.

back on topic - tankbustas in a trukk sounds good, but is the trukk really adding much? mobility i suppose. however, i think smaller units in wagons would be more effective, although S7, large blast sin't much use if your hunting high armour. but target saturation of their AT (as they still need to use ranged high str weapons to hit the wagon), then the wagons also double up to help shoot infantry squads.

'Ard boyz suffer from the tyranid syndrome of trying to polish a turd. Yeah, you can give a hormagaunt toxin sacks and adrenal glands so its actually... effective in combat instead of something to choke your enemy's guns. However, the upgrades cost as much as another gaunt.

In almost all cases, you're better off with just more wounds, more squads. More objective secured.

I can only agree with PhillyT. If you're not willing to embrace unbound or multiple FOCs (which are two core mechanics this edition) then yes, this codex sucks. I'll make you a bet that if you ignore those two options the codex after orks will suck too!

If you want to run mass bikerz or a dread mob, use IA8, unbound or multiple FOCs. Those are your options WITH THIS BOOK. If your opponents are okay with you using the older codex and you prefer using that, use that! But this discussion is about the new codex and your options are the ones we've discussed a dozen times by now.

The new codex seems alright to me. We are more likely to fail leadership, but we have options we didn't have before like going to ground. Lootas being moved to heavy support also means that the new, buffed tankbustaz will be taken more often. Rokkitz aren't the best anti-tank gun in the game, but combined with tank hunters they're perfect for dealing with transports and non-land raider vehicles.

Grot riggaz giving IWND to all our vehicles is really, really beneficial for massed vehicles lists. As I said before, it means your opponent has to kill your trukkz and wagonz one at a time - that battlewagon with 1 hull point left might be back to full by the time he gets to shoot it again!

If you're looking for a deathstar unit nob bikerz will still do the job even after the nerf. A nob biker mob with a painboy biker, a KFF big meg biker and a warboss has a 4+ armor save, 6+ FNP even if the painboy is killed and 5+ as long as he's there and a 5++ against shooting - and they can still jink. That still seems krump-capable. Is it worse than the old nob bikerz? Yes, but come on, 2 wound bike models with 3 S9 AP2 attacks each with objective secured was a bit over the top.

Killsaw meganobz in a battlewagon can also be used a deathstar and they'll tear anything they come in contact with apart. Their only downside is they don't benefit from the new Waaagh! since they can't run - but that's why you take a battlewagon with a boarding plank, so you can disembark 6" and charge 2D6" + 2" and re-roll one charge dice.

Our heavy support choices are great. Lootaz are cheaper now and still just as good, flash gitz have been buffed and mek gunz are awesome if a bit specialized. Not to mention cheap looted wagonz.

Give it some time, ladz. It's not the old codex and this is both a good and a bad thing. In the end though, we orkses gonna krump errybody else cuz we iz da orkz and we waz made to fight an' win!

EDIT: As for competetive lists, I'm not in the know as I haven't been following any of the tournament scenes for a while now. I hope someone will come up with a good competetive list for orks, because last I remember, we were under-represented in tournaments. Rokkit spam sounds pretty good - it's decent against transports and kills beakiez too.