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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Not sure if this is the correct forum, but since it is proposing using 30K rules in a 40K setting, I suppose it works!
Well, here's the question. I have been waiting for the model of Horus to finally be announced, and now that it has, it has sealed the deal- I will get him, because I love the model and because, if nothing else, it's Horus.
Now, would be fun to use the model in my games, right, even though I don't use 30K? So I figured, why not squeeze him into my 40KCSM army?
This means a few things. Seeing as he is so powerful, I think I'd make him take up the Lord of War slot that Escalation introduces, preventing the use of other Lords of War but otherwise making him function normally. As you can see from his rules, he is one tough motherfether and will cause havoc in smaller games. I only ever intend to use him in 2000+ points games, and probably mostly 3000+
While he has a statline that will make an Avatar drop his jaw in awe, he does cost a lot of points, and many of his better rules (Master of the Legion, part of God of Battle, The Point of the Spear) have no effect in a CSM army. We can also nerf Sire of the Sons of Horus and the other part of God of Battle a bit (I think we can drop God of Battle entirely, and drop the reserves part of Sire of the Sons of Horus).
Would you play it if I offered you a game and asked if I could bring Horus?
(For fluffnutters like me, I even came up with a few ideas of justifying this madness lorewise. See the spoiler below. Be warned, for it is silly; abandon all hope ye who enter here.)
Spoiler:
My original idea was that in one of the myriad timelines manifesting in the Warp, Horus was sucked into it during the early Heresy only to be spitted out in 'our' timeline ten thousand years later, encountering my guys who told him of what has happened. They tell him objectively, as they don't dare risk being biased while they do not know how much Horus actually knows, and angering him would end very badly. Horus' reaction is a deep, deep facepalm over what has happened. Then, being deeply disappointed with both the Emperor and his traitor Primarch brothers, proceed to say 'Feth it, might as well hang with you guys. I have nothing better to do.' And thus begins the beautiful friendship between a warband twisted Traitor Marines and the still uncorrupted-in-flesh Horus.
Another possibility is that one of the Horus-clones and the original Horus' wargear was stolen, and this clone somehow being a success, even retaining his memory, though he is dormant for ten thousand years. He wakes up now, completely alone, and my guys are the first to stumble onto him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/19 13:52:40
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
That's what the rulebook says.
But if I only what the rulebook says matters, why does this forum even exist?
I am not sure if I am to take the implication of me wanting to use Horus in order to curbstomp my friends as genetic fallacy or ad hominem.
Either way, it is not correct. I like the model, I will get the model. I'd like to use the model without sacrificing half of my current collection in the bargain (Which would sort of defeat the point of only using him in larger games, since it would be harder to reach that points level.)
If you think I shouldn't, you are free to hold this opinion. After all, it is for opinions that I made the thread.
But please do not imply that I would get him just because he is supposedly overpowered. Even though several of his abilities cease to function in 40K, I'd be willing to further nerf him- such as with the changes proposed in the OP, or with increased points cost, or something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To give a different viewpoint:
In Apocalypse, you are able to make an army out of any units in 40K, regardless of FoC, codex, or anything.
Would you allow Horus in an Apocalypse game, or do you think he is too overpowered?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 15:50:58
My opinion really has nothing to do with his level of power, it's more the principle that you have to stick to one rulebook. If you were playing a casual game, then yeah you might get a couple of players who would let you use him.
If I can ask, have you considered trying to use the 30k army list and rules? I've played against against 30k lists with my regular 40k army and they make for fine games.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
>Implying I ever play anything else than casual games.
As long as screamer/seer/grav/O'vesa/beaststars, wraithwing, whitescars bikespam, Mechdar, Taudar, Revdar, et cetera ad nauseam exist, I will play casually, tyvm. As soon as you try to go competetive, you expose just how many holes this game has.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote: If I can ask, have you considered trying to use the 30k army list and rules? I've played against against 30k lists with my regular 40k army and they make for fine games.
I haven't, actually. Do tell me more of your experiences?
My own experience was that they seemed rather limited.
Besides, as for two different rulesets, they really are mostly alike and a Tactical Marine and a Legionnaire has similar enough stats for me to assume the statline systems are equivalent.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/19 16:02:19
They are not in any way shape or form two different rule sets. Not even a little. Not even the slightest smidgen of a little.
The core rulebook of Warhammer 40k is required to play. The 30k books are nearly identical to how a codex works. It has its own set of special rules, and its own wargear, but it is played identical to a standard game of 40k.
The force org chart is slightly different, but with the way Allies, dataslates, and formations work now, the FOC was more of a suggestion anyways.
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curran12 wrote: If I can ask, have you considered trying to use the 30k army list and rules? I've played against against 30k lists with my regular 40k army and they make for fine games.
I haven't, actually. Do tell me more of your experiences?
My own experience was that they seemed rather limited.
Besides, as for two different rulesets, they really are mostly alike and a Tactical Marine and a Legionnaire has similar enough stats for me to assume the statline systems are equivalent.
Sure. I've played a few games against Legions in the past. If I remember right, one was against Sons of Horus and another was against Emperor's Children (I think) at about 2000 points each game. No Primarchs were used, though in the era of Escalation, I see that as not a big deal, although given the complex rules of a Primarch, I'd ask for a rundown of the rules before I conset. Like any other big Escalation-level thing.
As far as the games themselves, you're pretty correct in that they are slightly more limited Space Marines in how they play on the tabletop. They have some new units and things that'll surprise you (primarily their guns, like volkite weapons which are very strong) but at the same time, they run very high on points, making their forces relatively small. In my games against them, I was surprised at the effectiveness of their guns, but they were not obliterating squads by the handful or anything like that, and they made for pretty interesting games. I think 30k plays fine with 40k armies, though I think in fairness, it is best to run down opponents on the different stuff, but I'd be happy to fight against 30k armies any time they are around,
Edit: And Blacksails is correct, the rules are the same as 40k rules. They are not different games, just different settings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 16:08:10
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
For me, the biggest hindrance to just playing Sons of Horus is that I would lose so many 40K things that I love as well.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: What about my Daemon Prince? My Forgefiend? My Spawn? My Sorcerer & Dark Apostle? My Vindicator? My cultists?...
Et cetera.
Volkite, special weapon spam, special drop pods and all kinds of fancy stuff seems nice and all, but things like the above are important parts of my army's theme. I do not want to give up on them.
They are not in any way shape or form two different rule sets. Not even a little. Not even the slightest smidgen of a little.
The core rulebook of Warhammer 40k is required to play. The 30k books are nearly identical to how a codex works. It has its own set of special rules, and its own wargear, but it is played identical to a standard game of 40k.
The force org chart is slightly different, but with the way Allies, dataslates, and formations work now, the FOC was more of a suggestion anyways.
A response to Valkyrie saying that I should 'stick to one rulebook'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 16:11:41
Honestly, I think your best bet would maybe to concoct a situation where you have an "allied" detatchment of Legion units with Horus, representing him near the height of Chaos-ness. Cause I won't lie to you, the little fluff justification you gave is...yeeeeeeah. Kinda comes across as a quick handwave to put Horus where you want him.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Handwaving? Yes, yes it is. :[
Me wanting him is model-and-Horus based, not fluff or rules based.
I suppose allies would work just as well. If I remember correctly, you can make SoH squads somewhat small, and it's not like he's going to score or something anyway.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/19 16:29:50
Which, in all honesty, is fine for games. Hey, it is your game, right? If your opponent is cool with it, have fun with it.
Will it be spot-on with the fluff? Probably not.
But if you and your opponent(s) are having fun with it, so what? And this is coming from a fluff stickler too. I love making things stick with the fluff and I admit a bit of a love for fixing someone's bad or incomplete fluff, but I don't define myself by that. If the fluff is wobbly, but the game is fun, fine by me.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
I am a fluff crazie too, but hey, the fluff is crazy, and there's a bit of humour in it as well.
It's not like I would use him in every game. x) Just for massive special games.
Hell, the game itself is extremely detached from the fluff. The likelihood of a Guardsman chopping down a Nob in the game is much, much, MUCH higher than it is in the fluff.
It is why I ultimately decided to not use my 'fluff marine' rules.
The game is designed to be a reasonably fun game, not a 100% lore-correct game. And we take it as that.
I am not worried at all about him being accepted. The reason I even make this thread is that I want more opinions. I do not want to risk him being stronger than intended, which is why I suggested nerfs in the beginning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 16:48:53
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
