Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I haven't read Legion yet, but would much like to someday. Please keep any spoilers to a minimum or hidden.

That having been said I've been wondering about what I've been told by a friend/read on Lexicanum. The Cabal showed Alpharius that if Horus won the Heresy all of Humanity would be extinct within two generations. The other was that if The Emperor won Humanity would decay for 10-20 thousand years then be consumed by Chaos.

My question is would the Chaos Gods grow weaker and die out either way?

If the gods were to conquer the Galaxy then large parts of Humanity would be dead and not able to support them. The ones still alive (if any) would either fight Xenos or amongst themselves as part of "The Great Game." This would result in at least some of the Gods dying.

Another thing I've been wondering is how do we know The Cabal is some Chaos trick to get the Alpha Legion to join them instead of stay loyal? Is it ever proven their story is legit?

Nope, because neither of their scenarios came true. Neither Horus nor the Emperor "won" the Heresy. Arguments can be made that the Emperor's "side" won, but as for himself, he lost.

Never, ever trust Xenos.

No one won, but more importantly everyone lost.

As far as the gods of chaos go, their power is certainly helped by humanity, but it isn't entirely dependent on them. Slaanesh was born from the Eldar's debauchery.

The story is open to interpretation and can change based on who is writing the fluff. My understanding is that Chaos won but it wasn't a complete victory. Chaos had the objective to destroy the Emperor and subjugate humanity. Alpha legion was told that if they helped the Emperor then Chaos would eventually win. If they help Horus then Chaos would win but then it'd burn out. If that was a lie or half truth is up to debate as neither side won. Horus was slain and the Emperor was crippled. Chaos exists and humanity is in constant stagnation

 Inkubas wrote:
The story is open to interpretation and can change based on who is writing the fluff. My understanding is that Chaos won but it wasn't a complete victory. Chaos had the objective to destroy the Emperor and subjugate humanity. Alpha legion was told that if they helped the Emperor then Chaos would eventually win. If they help Horus then Chaos would win but then it'd burn out. If that was a lie or half truth is up to debate as neither side won. Horus was slain and the Emperor was crippled. Chaos exists and humanity is in constant stagnation

Except that's a complete victory for Chaos, as they were given what they always wanted- eternal war for their entertainment. The idea that Chaos wants to devour to subjugate everything only came from the words of Daemons, who have their own goals and aspirations separate from their masters.

The dream of mankind was shattered and the galaxy is there for the gods to manipulate and interfere in as they please. Obviously it wasn't a total victory - they were in the Heresy to win it - but I think that it could be argued that the Traitor Legions lost but Chaos itself loses nothing from the failure of the Heresy.

There was an earlier thread on this subject and with the book Vulkan Lives the ideas I posted still seem valid.

The Cabal was a group of aliens that had nothing to gain from the Emperor winning and going on with crushing all aliens in his Great Crusade.

If Horus would win they would possibly tear themselves apart, which would probably happen looking at the Eye of Terror in the last 10k years. But reading about one specific encounter in Vulkan Lives does give doubt to this Cabal statement. Spoiler for interpetation of encounter in Vulkan:


So what do the Aliens want, the Imperium winning the Heresy with ease or Horus so that the Imperium is shattered? Well pick the right one, because one means you and all your alien friends are going to get killed off. They would have gotten everything to gain from lying (i.e. Chaos will kill us all), so they would survive Mankinds rise. What they neglected to tell was that the Emperor was a threat to the existence of Chaos. But if the Emperor would win they would die for sure. So.... Cabal lying to save themselves maybe? Aliens lie, its what they do, remember how Eldar would sacrifice a million Humans if it meant saving one Eldar life?

We know the general direction Chaos would have taken if the Emperor would have won, its why the Chaos Gods put so much effort in the Heresy. The only thing the Cabal did was push the scales into this weird balance. With the Alpha Legion the Heresy would have been 10 vs 8 and an unknown outcome at Istvaan. But due to the Cabal pushing them (AL), they fulfilled their own prophecy, which was exactly what they were trying to prevent (or so they wanted Alpharius to believe). So one could say that due to them lying to the AL this situation has developed and had they not intervened it might be a Golden Age for Mankind. If they knew the real future, wouldnt they have seen this grimdark 40k coming. But then again, they didnt have to know the future to see that a victory for the Emperor meant their deaths, so why not lie and take the gamble?

The prophecy was that Horus would destroy humanity and thus Chaos if Horus won, out of guilt. Not that chaos would burn out. So in this scenario, Chaos' enemy would actually be Horus.

...I wonder if the Chaos Gods purposefully abandoned Horus at the end right as Horus crippled the Emperor so that Horus got taken out. That would have totally screwed the prophecy over in a way that gets rid of both Horus and the Emperor, which would be a win-win for the gods if that "Horus would kill humanity and Chaos" thing was true.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The prophecy was that Horus would destroy humanity and thus Chaos if Horus won, out of guilt. Not that chaos would burn out. So in this scenario, Chaos' enemy would actually be Horus.

...I wonder if the Chaos Gods purposefully abandoned Horus at the end right as Horus crippled the Emperor so that Horus got taken out. That would have totally screwed the prophecy over in a way that gets rid of both Horus and the Emperor, which would be a win-win for the gods if that "Horus would kill humanity and Chaos" thing was true.

Makes sense to me. This might fit better in fluff misconceptions but I've never believed the Gods have any real attachment to their followers beyond forwarding their goals as far as they have any. Horus was never their champion, merely their tool as Abaddon is now.

I imagine a 'Chaos wins' galaxy would basically look like a cross between Conan and Mad Max, sure you've got daemon worlds in great numbers but for most humans its a day to day anarchic existence, giving offerings to the Gods and dealing with Khorne biker cults in the ashes of a hive cities. Its the right level for horror to make the Gods happy but with plentiful souls to feed on. And if Abaddon creates a 'Dark Imperium' of sorts, ehh, mortal empires are of no concern to Gods.

Then again whats to say Chaos doesn't extend to other galaxies? I'm guessing in 40k logic the warp is simply part of physics so if makes sense. There may even be galaxies were a single God has dominance. Of course that means the Eldar didn't actually birth Slaneesh, maybe he/she had always existed, all be it in a minor form like Malice, and the Eldar's Fall simply provided a chance for him/her to up their game in the Milky Way?

That would also be an excellent reason for Chaos to up their game fluff wise against the Tyranids. Who knows how many galaxies in the thrall of the Dark Gods have been devoured. Really the true nemesis of the Tyranids is not the Imperium or even all sentient species, it is pure Chaos which is existentially threatened by the Hive Mind, its certainly the only force that could, given a couple of billion years, wipe them permanently from the cosmos.

 Jape wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The prophecy was that Horus would destroy humanity and thus Chaos if Horus won, out of guilt. Not that chaos would burn out. So in this scenario, Chaos' enemy would actually be Horus.

...I wonder if the Chaos Gods purposefully abandoned Horus at the end right as Horus crippled the Emperor so that Horus got taken out. That would have totally screwed the prophecy over in a way that gets rid of both Horus and the Emperor, which would be a win-win for the gods if that "Horus would kill humanity and Chaos" thing was true.

Makes sense to me. This might fit better in fluff misconceptions but I've never believed the Gods have any real attachment to their followers beyond forwarding their goals as far as they have any. Horus was never their champion, merely their tool as Abaddon is now.

I imagine a 'Chaos wins' galaxy would basically look like a cross between Conan and Mad Max, sure you've got daemon worlds in great numbers but for most humans its a day to day anarchic existence, giving offerings to the Gods and dealing with Khorne biker cults in the ashes of a hive cities. Its the right level for horror to make the Gods happy but with plentiful souls to feed on. And if Abaddon creates a 'Dark Imperium' of sorts, ehh, mortal empires are of no concern to Gods.

Then again whats to say Chaos doesn't extend to other galaxies? I'm guessing in 40k logic the warp is simply part of physics so if makes sense. There may even be galaxies were a single God has dominance. Of course that means the Eldar didn't actually birth Slaneesh, maybe he/she had always existed, all be it in a minor form like Malice, and the Eldar's Fall simply provided a chance for him/her to up their game in the Milky Way?

That would also be an excellent reason for Chaos to up their game fluff wise against the Tyranids. Who knows how many galaxies in the thrall of the Dark Gods have been devoured. Really the true nemesis of the Tyranids is not the Imperium or even all sentient species, it is pure Chaos which is existentially threatened by the Hive Mind, its certainly the only force that could, given a couple of billion years, wipe them permanently from the cosmos.

Chaos ignores causality and according to the line in the 6th Edition Daemons Codex, retcons time somehow with (paraphrasing) "Slaanesh has never existed yet always existed". Most likely upon the birth of a Chaos God, it actively retcons history so it has always existed, as time does not exist in the Immaterium.

Which leads to a frightening revelation that Chaos might actually be flat invincible seeing that they can simply feed off the past if the future of the materium is devoid of life. They always win, even when they lose.

Yes, basically.

Chaos... the concept, not the specific Great Four... but Chaos Undivided, is the primordial malice. It is the cradle from which all creation arose, and is the state to which it will eventually return.

The only chaos that can feed off the past is the chaos that is extant in the past. Otherwise the entire gambit to generate the Emperor in the first place would not have mattered, as future chaos could mass all eternities chaos against the nacent god and destroyed him. So I think the throw-away line in the Demon book is just that-- a throw away line.

 Silverthorne wrote:
The only chaos that can feed off the past is the chaos that is extant in the past. Otherwise the entire gambit to generate the Emperor in the first place would not have mattered, as future chaos could mass all eternities chaos against the nacent god and destroyed him. So I think the throw-away line in the Demon book is just that-- a throw away line.

Okay, this is shaky, like really shaky, my memory is terrible. But didn't a daemon of Slaanesh heavily influence Eldar's descent into pleasure cults or something? (also doesn't help that when the gods are first born isn't necessarily the only factor thanks to time being a mess in the warp and how it is explained even if they weren't sentient they still existed. The warp, don't try and explain it it really makes no sense. Seriously, you can go back in time using it. That really messes up a lot of things!)

I've never heard that, but i don't read black library stuff. So if it was from that, maybe IDK. In general time travel seems pretty universe-breaking,especially if multiple factions can use it (Necrons, I think can also time travel since they can go FTL outside the warp)

 Psienesis wrote:
Nope, because neither of their scenarios came true. Neither Horus nor the Emperor "won" the Heresy. Arguments can be made that the Emperor's "side" won, but as for himself, he lost.

Never, ever trust Xenos.

Tzeentch won. Or actually, Tzeentch can never win, but it is sure going 'just as planned.'

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've never heard that, but i don't read black library stuff. So if it was from that, maybe IDK. In general time travel seems pretty universe-breaking,especially if multiple factions can use it (Necrons, I think can also time travel since they can go FTL outside the warp)

Chaos and Necrons have working time travel. Chaos however works for the sake of Chaos, and killing the Emperor would be counter intuitive and deny them their sport. The Necrons meanwhile have subfactions that fiercely guard their super tech like the Celestial Orrery to prevent misuse. Ironically, they're actually quite responsible of all the factions, as Necrons don't go destroying important things on a rampage of carnage, they actually note that something could destabilize space-time and thus put it on a do-not-touch shelf. Then there was the Eldar, who pre fall IIRC had the ability to re-write history or something with psyker powers. Then there's warp travel, which by its definition is time travel as the warp is devoid of time. Warboss killing his past self for two of his favorite gun and all that.

I wouldn't consider time travel to be a top-tier tech for Crons. Basically their entire fleet can go FTL thanks to inertialess drives, so even the frigate captains have time travel capability. I would agree that they do seem responsible though, which is a bit of a change in their background, and I feel like good work by Ward.

I wouldn't say Chaos has working time travel. It's more of a coincidental phenomenon than something they can use as a strategic tool. Its a byproduct of the extradimensional overlay rather than part of their doctrine, and I've never heard of them manipulating it in any way (although tbf, if you could manipulate time, to an internal observer nothing would appear to have changed...)

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wouldn't consider time travel to be a top-tier tech for Crons. Basically their entire fleet can go FTL thanks to inertialess drives, so even the frigate captains have time travel capability. I would agree that they do seem responsible though, which is a bit of a change in their background, and I feel like good work by Ward.

I wouldn't say Chaos has working time travel. It's more of a coincidental phenomenon than something they can use as a strategic tool. Its a byproduct of the extradimensional overlay rather than part of their doctrine, and I've never heard of them manipulating it in any way (although tbf, if you could manipulate time, to an internal observer nothing would appear to have changed...)

Well Horus was more or less shot back in time by a Daemon to see the creation of the Primarchs. And I wasn't talking about their inertia-less drives of the Necrons, IIRC they have an advanced time travel device along with the Celestial Orrery.

They have both, because GW doesn't realize that FTL in real space = time travel apparently.

Could Horus affect anything in the past or was he just observing, ghost of christmas past style? Either way it counts as on demand time travel but I wonder if it is more of a spell effect like an optic than an extra-sidereal teleport.

 Silverthorne wrote:
They have both, because GW doesn't realize that FTL in real space = time travel apparently.

Could Horus affect anything in the past or was he just observing, ghost of christmas past style? Either way it counts as on demand time travel but I wonder if it is more of a spell effect like an optic than an extra-sidereal teleport.

IIRC, he killed a custodes that saw him and thought he was an intruder when the warp storm that ripped the Primarchs out of their gene-pods.

 Silverthorne wrote:
They have both, because GW doesn't realize that FTL in real space = time travel apparently.

Necrons use the webway for their interstellar travel, the only Necron with time travel capabilities, at least in the going backwards sense, is Orikan, and his is limited to going backwards along his own time line.

Animus wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
They have both, because GW doesn't realize that FTL in real space = time travel apparently.

Necrons use the webway for their interstellar travel, the only Necron with time travel capabilities, at least in the going backwards sense, is Orikan, and his is limited to going backwards along his own time line.

Imperial Armor also gave back at least one dynasty their old inertia-less drives.

My interpretation of chaos; the human race, and largely the galaxy as a whole, is little more then an interesting distraction to the Chaos Gods. They aren't reliant on our souls/worship for continued existence, as they can feed on countless other galaxies in countless other universes. Rather, we seem to be a source of entertainment for them.

I tend to also think that the Emperor's plan with eliminating religion wasn't so much to starve to gods, but to make humans too boring for the gods to take notice of.

 Silverthorne wrote:
They have both, because GW doesn't realize that FTL in real space = time travel apparently.
.

actually they do realize it. they;ve mentioned how warp travel is actually pretty "funny" with how time works too

 ThatEdGuy wrote:
No one won, but more importantly everyone lost.

As far as the gods of chaos go, their power is certainly helped by humanity, but it isn't entirely dependent on them. Slaanesh was born from the Eldar's debauchery.

And what are the victory conditions that back up your statement.