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Good evening Dakkites!

One of my buddies pointed something out to me during a game against his high elves and we left it undecided, Ill let you guys help me out because me and him got nowhere! First of all I will describe the situation too you;

He had a White Lion bunker which got charged by both my Disc riding BSB and my Nurgle DP, I laided down the challenge with my BSB and he gracitously accepted. I, for the gods, slaughtered him where he stood and rolled Daemonhood on the table, also passing my leadership test and thus becomming a daemon prince. My new daemon prince and current one proceeded to smash the high elves to a pulp and live until the end of the game. At the end of the game when we were touting up VP, he said he could claim the victory points for my BSB because the model was destroyed, however the NEW BSB daemon prince lived the entire battle and didnt take a wound! My argument is I still have the BSB in new form, therefore I should keep the points, like killing a mount and rider indiviually.

To save arguments here is what the book says directly:

DAEMONHOOD*
If the Chaos Champion does not already have a Mark of Chaos, he immediately gains one (owning players choice, with the exception that a Wizard can never gain the Mark of Khorne).The, if you have a spare Daemon Prince model, you can place it anywhere within 6" of the Chaos Champion that is more than 1" from any unit or impassable terrain. This Daemon Prince will retain any equipment, Chaso Mutations and Powers, magic items and any other rewards from this table gained during its former existence (if it had any). If the Chaos Champion was your army General or Battle Standard Bearer, the Daemon Prince remains so. If the Chaos Champion was a Wizard, the Daemon Prince retains his Wizard levels and knows the same spells as the Chaos Champion did before turning into a Daemon Prince. If the Chaos Champion had the Mark of Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh, he will have the Daemon of Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh upgrade, respectively. If you do not have a spare Daemon Prince model, or if it can not be placed on the board according to the aforementioned restrictions, the no Daemon Prince is placed.

Finally, the Chaos Champion is removed from play as a casualty,. If the Chaos Champion is mounted, his mount is also removed from play, unless it is a chariot or ridding monster
*New models creased by these results do not have any upgrades or award victory points.

The most important part is that last sentence with the *, I took this too mean you DO NOT get the extra 235pts for a daemon prince because I created one, not that when the champion was removed (via creation) I lost the points for the BSB.

Does this mean its NOT beneficial to get a point filled character to be a Daemon because you will loose the points for them when they change? because that goes against everything Chaos is about, whats the point in rewarding someone the fullest they can be rewarded and it costing me 260pts (for the BSB)

PLEASE help guys

We went over this a long time ago when the book came out. While it's not "everything chaos goes against," that would be order...

It is RAW pretty clear.

1. original model is removed as a casualty
2. new model is worth nothing

So yes, the first one "dies." In your case that cost you 260. But it could have easily cost you like 30 or something if it was a unit champ. And as you said, your 2 marauding DPs beat the snot out of stuff. Your higher killiness should hopefully make up for swapping heroes.

But in any case, it's very much what chaos is all about. I mean, you either turn into a spawn or turn into a demigod. It could be a benefit or a (very mild) punishment.

Funnily enough he said it could just as well have been a unit champion who got it but I didnt want to belive. Sorry i missed the post when the book came out I was under the impression that I kept the points like a rider and mount situation (you dont get points til you kill both)

I still think this is the perfect example of RAW and RAI, no way should it be that you loose the points for them, but because the order of the book and rule book say so then it goes.

Thanks for your help anyway!

Well, I wouldn't give him the points. He didn't do anything to deserve them, and you didn't make any mistake that resulted in killing your unit, like failing a Ld test and fleeing off the table, kill your unit/mage as a result of miscast, getting a missfire and stuff like that.

If the Chaos Champion was your army General or Battle Standard Bearer, the Daemon Prince remains so.


I pulled that directly out of what you quoted from the book. The Daemon Prince remains your BSB. It's worded quite soundly. Your friend doesn't get any points for him.

KeyserSoze wrote:
Well, I wouldn't give him the points. He didn't do anything to deserve them

It doesn't matter. DoC units can roll on their winds of magic table and all get wiped out on turn 1 without the enemy ever even getting near them. O&G can all go berserk with Animosity and kill each other without the enemy doing anything. It's the rules of the book. You don't get to choose not to give someone points, it very clearly states it's "removed from play as a casualty." There isn't anything remotely ambiguous about that.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:
Well, I wouldn't give him the points. He didn't do anything to deserve them

It doesn't matter. DoC units can roll on their winds of magic table and all get wiped out on turn 1 without the enemy ever even getting near them. O&G can all go berserk with Animosity and kill each other without the enemy doing anything. It's the rules of the book. You don't get to choose not to give someone points, it very clearly states it's "removed from play as a casualty." There isn't anything remotely ambiguous about that.

Well, I would appreciate if you quoted my whole thought and not only a part of it.Ok? DoC and O&G are punished by their unstable magic and their ferocious behaviour respectively. With WoC the things are different. Your opponent gains 200+ points because you killed a character, then you got a 12 on 2D6 and then you passed a Ld test???? Your reward for achieving some really good rolls is your opponent getting 200+ points?
Awesome logic, keep playing using that bro. I hope you really enjoying winning that way. If you've ever enjoyed a game...

Your opponent gains 200+

Really? Where does it say your opponent gets that? OH, it doesn't.

You get a Daemon Prince. Regardless of what you used. Regardless of the point value of the game. If you are playing a 500 pt game, you just won. That LD roll = insta-victory.

You can turn a Marauder Chieftain who costs SIXTEEN points into a 235+ pt monster. ZOMG that's such a terrible penalty.

It is theoretically possible to lose points on the transformation. Especially since it's considered dead even if it doesn't die. However, it is vastly more likely you will get a incredible buff by doing it. Also, in any case, you know the rule and can choose to try and make a challenge with your zillion point Lord or a low point champ.

And it's not my logic, it's GW's logic. Because it's about as clear a sentence as you can make.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
If the Chaos Champion was your army General or Battle Standard Bearer, the Daemon Prince remains so.


I pulled that directly out of what you quoted from the book. The Daemon Prince remains your BSB. It's worded quite soundly. Your friend doesn't get any points for him.

All you could argue from that, is that you don't get points for killing the BSB. But you'd still get the point cost of the model itself. So if your BSB cost 120 points he'd get the 120 points, but not the bonus points for being a BSB.

I'm usually firmly on the RAI side of arguments, however there is no such argument in this instance. The rule is very clear, victory points are awarded as per the character being removed as a casualty.

It's been pointed out already but there are WAY less instances in which this actually short changes the WoC player from a points perspective, considering all magic items, levels, spells and mutations are transferred to the new DP.

KeyserSoze wrote:
Awesome logic, keep playing using that bro. I hope you really enjoying winning that way. If you've ever enjoyed a game...

Logic has nothing to do with it, that's the rule. I'd drop the condescending tone, doesn't do you any favours, especially considering you aren't correct.

To put it bluntly, as to try to ensure this thread doesn't dissolve into the throwing of digital faeces and shouting, I'll explain how this works.

Step 1. Character meets the requirements for EoTG.

Step 2. Character rolls double 6.

Step 3. Character dies.

Step 4. Replace said character with Demon Prince.

I'm pretty rude. No one has to jump on him.

I get that it seems poopy that some zillion point CL DIES and you get a DP you didn't want or you would have bought it to begin with.

But that's the book. It uses the same language as close combat or shooting results when someone dies. Removed as a casualty. If you're not getting points for that, I don't know what you get them for. They specifically went out of their way to say you don't get points for the Spawn or DP that is created. So it would have to be a double-oversight. Because they were looking at half of the VP equation and completely missed the other side?

Because going by that logic, you could turn guys into DPs who aren't worth VP at all. That means 200 points simply vanished from the game as your Lord poofs into a Spawn or DP. The game could end without it even being possible to win if you slaughtered his entire army because he's effectively removed enough VP from play. Like if 25% of his Lords and 25% of his Heroes became Spawn or DP, he would only have 50% of his army available to kill and score points on! He could play horribly and still win on points.

The current method at least keeps track of your original purchases.

lmao, i lost track on who is arguing for which side.... but my two handfulls of scat are that the opponent is awarded the points for a model removed as a casualty and you are given a DP. Now hopfully it was a 15 point marauder made DP not a 200+ point hero.....

 Grey Templar wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
If the Chaos Champion was your army General or Battle Standard Bearer, the Daemon Prince remains so.


I pulled that directly out of what you quoted from the book. The Daemon Prince remains your BSB. It's worded quite soundly. Your friend doesn't get any points for him.

All you could argue from that, is that you don't get points for killing the BSB. But you'd still get the point cost of the model itself. So if your BSB cost 120 points he'd get the 120 points, but not the bonus points for being a BSB.

I agree with this as the proper ruling. The bsb or general bonuses are not claimed, however cost of the model is.

In theory, they are still your BSB/general, so nothing extra is awarded.

The points of the original model however are awarded, as the model dies and is replaced with the DP instead.


Pro tip, dont challenge something with a tooled up lord unless you can tinker with the chart

Wouldnt be the first time ive seen a unit champ manage it either.

^Unless of course making your chaos lord's base stats into a Daemon Prince while keeping all his sweet swag would be a good thing.

When I clicked on this thread I thought it would be about chaos players farming for daemon princes by taking a shrine or 2 with 5 man units of chosen and 10 man marauder units with champs.

Because if you can get that to work, even once, you'll never complain about being at a disadvantage with the chart.

^ YUP !! I just wrote a list for my buddy that had MSU warrior units, 3 5 man Chosen units with MoN, and 2 Shrines.... He was popping DP out left and right. NUTS!