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Rereading a couple of the HH novels recently, the thought came to me that not only was the Heresy - or another vast rebellion of the Legions with different causes but the same result - inevitable, but that it was necessary and a good thing for humanity.

It's the overwhelming arrogance of the Astartes that makes me think this. It's all over the books - these 'post-humans', even the best of them, do not regard the mass of humanity as their equals, so I find it hard to envisage a future for the Imperium of 'Man' that would not have, in any case, been a militaristic dictatorship of the Astartes lording it over those who did not share their genetic enhancements. No doubt they'd say it was for their own good - dictators often do - but there's only so many scenes of ordinary humans being awed/frightened/intimidated by Space Marines before I find myself deciding that it was a good thing that the Heresy broke the power of the Legions.

This isn't simply a case of the Astartes having command in an ongoing campaign, and ready to relinquish it once the battle had moved on. In Flight of the Eisenstein an as yet uncorrupted Death Guard (a traitor in the making, but not yet touched by Chaos) rails against the idea of them taking orders from ordinary men on Terra, and given that he was a captain and a lodge brother one can assume that was a commonly held attitude among the Legions. Had this conflict not been brought to the fore by the Heresy it was surely only a matter of time before it showed itself in some other test of authority between the Astartes and the Lords of Terra.

Some spoilers for The Unremembered Empire...



In the long run Horus (or the Ruinous Powers) did humanity a great good. The Primarchs were either slain or shown as the monsters they truly were, and the overwhelming power of the Legions was smashed beyond repair - making it possible for them to be utilised as they were originally intended - as the weapons of humanity, rather than its rulers.

I dont think this is true.


Arrogant they were, because they knew, without a doubt, that they were better than regular humans.

It is certainly true however, that a vast majority of the marines in the higher ranks knew exactly that they were not mankinds rulers.


This is of course, because of the emperor. All the primarchs had been shown that he was their father and superior in all ways (other than physical strength mayhaps). They all deeply loved him and wished to be by his side.

The legions themselves felt this same way towards their primarchs.

There is no way that an uncorrupted chapter would have turned againgst the emperor or their own primarch.




The emperor himself had plans on how to deal with the primarchs after the great crusade was over. Some would be placed as leaders (Guilliman, Dorn, Vulkan, Horus,Corvus, Fulgrim and Perturabo), others as part of his great works (Magnus, Khan, Alpharius and Omega, Ferrus Manus), and some would simply be pushed out of the emperium on further crusades ( Khan, Mortarion, Russ, and sanguiness).

I think Lion, Angron and kurze would have been disposed of in some manner as they were mentally too unstable to remain part of the Emperium in the long run.



The heresy was not nessecary, unless the Cabal was right about humanity consuming itself with chaos.

The astartes' decision that they were better than humans was nothing but hubris - they aren't better than humans, they're just better at surviving war.

The Heresy wouldn't have been a good thing, only because of the Emperor. The Emperor was controlling the Primarchs and the Legions. I would like to think that given time for the war to end and his Great Work to be completed, the Emperor would have reigned in his wayward sons when they got too big for their boots, but the way things went down doesn't exactly fill me with hope.

No and No.

WTF dude, where's the spoiler tags for unremembered Empire. It's a pretty new book (the only one I don't have) and there's you splashing around part of the plot like it's been out for years. I don't mind you putting gak like that up so long as it's in spoilers. Some of us haven't got that far or are still waiting on Ebay. Think it all the way through next time please so you don't spoil it for the rest of us.

Id say no. The Astartes are still arrogant and they were too loyal individually to actually try and overthrow anything. The Astartes are fighters thats it.

pm713 wrote:
Id say no. The Astartes are still arrogant and they were too loyal individually to actually try and overthrow anything. The Astartes are fighters thats it.

Actually, I have to agree somewhat with the original poster. Not just traitor legion, but also loyalist legions have people voice the fact they rue a civilian government. They often speak down to humans, with a few exceptions (but these are almost presented in a way to showcase they are the exception).

I don't think all of the legions would have revolted, but we're given hints that the Emperor may have tried to 'do away' with some of the legions and astartes for a civilian government. It's speculated that this in and of itself may have caused a revolt, and may have caused some of the loyalists to revolt.

Roboute was already trying to train his men for this eventuality, but do you think Dorn, or the Lion, or some others would have just been okay?

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
WTF dude, where's the spoiler tags for unremembered Empire. It's a pretty new book (the only one I don't have) and there's you splashing around part of the plot like it's been out for years. I don't mind you putting gak like that up so long as it's in spoilers. Some of us haven't got that far or are still waiting on Ebay. Think it all the way through next time please so you don't spoil it for the rest of us.

While I agree with this, to be fair it is on the blurb for the book

 Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
WTF dude, where's the spoiler tags for unremembered Empire. It's a pretty new book (the only one I don't have) and there's you splashing around part of the plot like it's been out for years. I don't mind you putting gak like that up so long as it's in spoilers. Some of us haven't got that far or are still waiting on Ebay. Think it all the way through next time please so you don't spoil it for the rest of us.

While I agree with this, to be fair it is on the blurb for the book

More spoilers!

A fair point, but still, spoiler tags or fair warning would have been nice for those trying to wait it out until their book arrives. *checks ebay once more for the delivery date*

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
WTF dude, where's the spoiler tags for unremembered Empire.

Apologies. I've updated the post accordingly.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Id say no. The Astartes are still arrogant and they were too loyal individually to actually try and overthrow anything. The Astartes are fighters thats it.

Actually, I have to agree somewhat with the original poster. Not just traitor legion, but also loyalist legions have people voice the fact they rue a civilian government. They often speak down to humans, with a few exceptions (but these are almost presented in a way to showcase they are the exception).

I don't think all of the legions would have revolted, but we're given hints that the Emperor may have tried to 'do away' with some of the legions and astartes for a civilian government. It's speculated that this in and of itself may have caused a revolt, and may have caused some of the loyalists to revolt.

Roboute was already trying to train his men for this eventuality, but do you think Dorn, or the Lion, or some others would have just been okay?

No but I doubt the Astartes wouldve been removed at all. There are just too many threats the Army couldnt handle alone. Thats my opinion anyway.

 ashcroft wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
WTF dude, where's the spoiler tags for unremembered Empire.

Apologies. I've updated the post accordingly.

Cheers.

No, just no! Having a untold number of super post humans going stirr crazy, and dedicating their lifes to slaugther anyone not sporting spikes and such is bad. Very bad

I think it was inevitable the HH would happen. What with the Big E doing deals with the Chaos Gods and Horus unable to back down from a fight and Magus delving too deep into the dark arts. Interestingly enough the HH seems to have been conducted by the Astartes and not so much their Primarchs. Typhus, Eberus and Kor to name a few, are major players in the plot.

Eihnlazer wrote:
There is no way that an uncorrupted chapter would have turned againgst the emperor or their own primarch.

Some do. The Death Guard who are placed aboard the Eisenstein to kill Garro and the others are only touched by Nurgle after they enter the warp. Prior to that they and others are more than willing to participate in the betrayal of their battle brothers, either through the virus bombing or in combat on the Eisenstein.

Admittedly some have already become corrupted - like Typhon - but in many cases the decision to turn traitor is shown more as a personal choice (or blind loyalty to their Primarch and/or the Warmaster) than due to outside influences. It's an interesting question though... whether it was the first touch of corruption that led them to become traitors, or the act of betrayal that made them susceptible to the influence of Chaos. A bit of both, I think.

I think Lion, Angron and kurze would have been disposed of in some manner as they were mentally too unstable to remain part of the Emperium in the long run.

Attempting to do so would, I think, be a likely alternative cause of the rebellion. To dispose of the Primarchs would not be easy, and given the loyalty of the Primarchs to each other several of them could end up siding with the Lion and the others - especially if they believed that such a purge was being ordered by the Lords of Terra. Aside from anything else, once one Primarch were dealt with the question in the minds of many of the others would be "Am I next?"

A rebellion by one or more legions would of been inevitable. Not necessarily matching the scale of HH, but it would of happened nonetheless.

Remember that the Horus Heresy was drawn in outline long long before the BL books were ever conceived. Most of the details were firmly set years ago and the novels came along and filled in the fluff. It was inevitable because the established background required it to be inevitable and becausethe original GW background writers rather like the Fall from Heaven aspect.

I agree, there seems to be a lot of superiority complexes going on amongst the Astartes that makes elements of it happening inevitable.

 Flinty wrote:
Remember that the Horus Heresy was drawn in outline long long before the BL books were ever conceived. Most of the details were firmly set years ago and the novels came along and filled in the fluff. It was inevitable because the established background required it to be inevitable and becausethe original GW background writers rather like the Fall from Heaven aspect.

Everything is not set in stone. There are differences in the HH already to the orginal setting. The broad strokes I agree will not change. Primarchs must fall to chaos under Horus' banner, Terra must be attacked, and Horus and the Big E must battle it out while below them the palace burns. But many minor details can still change. Like I'm betting on Little Horus being the one to lower the shield and Abaddon killing him for it, instead of the lame excuse of Horus wanted a better look.

In maybe some of the more crazy ones, is like aragorn, or less stable ones might of had to have been brought into line by force.

Magnus, if arested at some point could have been "guided" by the big E and shown how to use power for good/controlled.

Rest some would fall into a military/first response role for sure, they where unsuited to civilian roles alongside there legions. Ie Leman Russ was hardly one to use for sitting behind a desk.

The others, maybe the craftsmen go more to mars and such, the two seige engineers to fortify the captured lands, secure the impirial borders.

Others where more suited to civilian roles and governing the empire like the ultra marineas .

A rebellion minus Horus, would not have been as effective, he was one of the best tactical advisers, most powerful primarchs they had and the begrudging respect at least of all. Also backed by a big legion.

I dont think any of them would have had to dissapear if im honest and im pretty sure that it wasnt an inevitability I think the threat would always be there but it wasnt inevitable.

Bit from Betrayer



I dont see why the Lion would have to go... yeah sure he isnt exactly in touch with people but thats what Luther was for. thats all he needs another Luther.

Even Curze could be utilised "wait we need to know where the Dissdent republicans are hiding" "send in Curze" hed make the perfect interrogator. he only has to walk in the room and BAMN!! they guy starts talking

Russ- Galactic space police
Magnus- Astronomican
Guilliman- Ultima
Dorn- Obscurus
Perturabo- Pacificus
Horus- Solar & Regent to terra & imperium
Lorgar- Up holds the imperial truth
Corax- Tempestus
Apharius/Omegon- FBMI6CISPETZSEALSAS (sorry couldnt help myself)
Vulkan- galactic red cross

you can use your imagination for the rest

Angron would have definitely rebelled regardless of Chaos or any outside influence. He hated The Emperor. A lot!

... and who's to say how Magnus would have reacted. Knowing that his planned fate was to sit on the throne forever? (although he may have been able to astral-project to get around the lack of mobility)

I think a certain amount of internal conflict would have happened regardless of external forces intervening (like Chaos.) A number of legions were already problems - the Word Bearers, the Night Lords, the World Eaters, etc. were still problem children, the Thousand Sons had that sorcery issue, etc. There were still internal strife in the AdMech, as well as within the Imperial government itself (the divide between the military and civilian sides, various worlds who resented being conquered and forced to join the Imperium, etc.) and those strains were not simply going to go away. Sooner or later there were going to be problems. But without Horus orchestrating much of that (and his position and abilities behind it) it would not have been nearly so destructive as it turned out, because Horus is and always was a key element to that. Heck, even if all the other Legions had turned traitor but the Luna Wolves, it still would not have been as devastating simply because he was still out of the equation.