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Completely skipping my points about the over priced hero models and the fact that failcast was a significant saving for them compared to metal I see.

As for the books the space marine codex was the same when released on iTunes as the printed version, I don't have a list and I'm on my tablet so it's awkward to compile one right now.

Fact is profits are shrinking year on year and the constant price increases coupled with kits that sell you 10 models for £30 in a game like warhammer where you want regiments of 20 speaks volumes about the poor management, lack of understanding and panic.

They are rising the cost per model trying to offset the fact they are making millions less each year when the fact is they lose money because they raise the price and pissing off their customers.

At a time they should be building the community up and increasing player loyalty lost due to switching focus onto kids with no steady income, they instead reduce staff at shops, make it harder for third party sellers which means they lose all that promotion to other games.

They clearly don't get that the only advertising they ever had came from happy hobbyists, and when they turned their collective backs on the vets they lost their best recruiters, very few of us would think of introducing people to 40k these days.

Finecast was cheaper on the materials cost but the casting issues (internal control failures) and all those free replacement models (external control failures) had to end up somewhere. That went right back into the cost of the Finecast models. You're not just buy the model, you're helping pay for it's potential replacement, or the failed casting that never made it to the store.

iTunes codexes tend to be about $10 cheaper last I looked. The Marine one was the same price because of the built in army builder that was included (they decided that was a $10 value for one reason or another). It wasn't the same -exact- book because of it.

And you have a lot of assumptions one what's going on behind the scenes of GW (a lot of people do actually) but I never see them actually supported by anything beyond what people assume is driving costs: panic and greed. Oh and assuming every single choice is a malicious action against the consumer base.

Staff reductions at shops was to reduce costs of brick and mortar stores (which are a drain on the company in a lot of ways, which is why they're trying to move them to cheaper locations to try and keep them).

The only 3rd party companies GW has targeted have been online distributors as they feel that undercuts sales of brick and mortar stores on both their side as well as independents due to the deep discount online only stores can afford to give that real stores can't. Is it a little focused on their own bottom line? Yes. But it helps the brick and mortar FLGSs too.

Clearly you feel GW can only do wrong and everything they do is out of malicious action to harm the player and community base.

I won't claim they can do no wrong, but I will say they do a lot less wrong than the internet seems to believe.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Finecast was cheaper on the materials cost but the casting issues (internal control failures) and all those free replacement models (external control failures) had to end up somewhere. That went right back into the cost of the Finecast models. You're not just buy the model, you're helping pay for it's potential replacement, or the failed casting that never made it to the store.

A company that makes a decision for operational reasons (such as using a lower cost, more stable priced material) that then poorly executes the implementation of that decision resulting in increased costs, who then passes those self inflicted costs onto the customer, rather than resolving the issue, deserves what it gets.

iTunes codexes tend to be about $10 cheaper last I looked. The Marine one was the same price because of the built in army builder that was included (they decided that was a $10 value for one reason or another). It wasn't the same -exact- book because of it.

I partially agree here, itunes books especially have the Apple Tax to account for, but some of the ePub type documents they've crapped out are so hideous to read they really should be much more keenly priced, as feth all work has gone into them.

And you have a lot of assumptions one what's going on behind the scenes of GW (a lot of people do actually) but I never see them actually supported by anything beyond what people assume is driving costs: panic and greed. Oh and assuming every single choice is a malicious action against the consumer base.

Never has the adage "don't attribute to malice what can more easily be attributed to incompetence" been more appropriate than in the case of anything to do with GW and its management of its customer relations.

Staff reductions at shops was to reduce costs of brick and mortar stores (which are a drain on the company in a lot of ways, which is why they're trying to move them to cheaper locations to try and keep them).

No, they're moving them to cheaper locations because they are trying to keep costs low so they look more profitable to the shareholders. Like many things, rather than invest in making a proper go of something, ie open a decent sized store, with long opening hours, multiple staff and make a decent effort at building a long term, sustainable community, they're doing things on the cheap, with a model that doesn't appear to serve anyone's purposes. They're also crowing about investing in this model, when the world and his dog is declaring that more and more business is being done online, and that traditional retail needs to innovate or die.

The only 3rd party companies GW has targeted have been online distributors as they feel that undercuts sales of brick and mortar stores on both their side as well as independents due to the deep discount online only stores can afford to give that real stores can't. Is it a little focused on their own bottom line? Yes. But it helps the brick and mortar FLGSs too.

Well, that's what GW say. Mind you, GW are also known for bottlenecking stock supply to FLGS's when they open their own shop nearby, does that help them too? Mind you, can't blame them for this one, if I was selling product at a profit at wholesale and getting my arse kicked by the companies I was selling to at retail, I'd want to put a bullet in them too.

But what about all the other third parties that have been targeted by baseless and superfluous lawsuits?

Clearly you feel GW can only do wrong and everything they do is out of malicious action to harm the player and community base.

I won't claim they can do no wrong, but I will say they do a lot less wrong than the internet seems to believe.

I won't argue that characterising a company as malicious is somewhat like characterising a dog as being musically talented, but there's an increasing pile of evidence which heavily suggests that people who make decisions at GWHQ are lacking in the skills needed to properly manage the company in it's current phase of development and adapt to the way the market is changing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
(their pricing apparently takes into account exchange rates as they claim no gains/losses on those).

Come shopping in New Zealand and you'll see this is either a massive lie, or some third party is doing some serious skimming. I can order from the USA, pay shipping, and still come out 25% ahead.

And that's from the US! Obviously not gonna mention how much I save shopping in China.

One man stores and cheaper leases seems to be part of Wells cost cutting run through the company. I'm willing to bet some of the other things (such as the company screwing over an FLGS is they have a store in the same area) is likewise his thinking too.

That said, when it comes to profitability there is a very hard limit on how profitable you can make a company look. Anyone who takes a little time to dig through the numbers can usually shift out the truth pretty fast.

Actually because I'm curious on how healthy GW actually is I'm using them for a financial analysis for an accounting class I'm in. I'm doing a trend analysis (that is one done comparing a series of years to each other to create a picture of how things are actually moving, in this case FY2011-2013) and I plan on using the data I compile for that (good or ill about the company, I'm reserving no judgements here, I honestly want to see for myself how good or bad they're actually doing) to put together a little analysis of my own.

If I had copies of older statements I could take it further, but they only keep the last three on their site, unless someone knows where I can find 2010 and before I'm stuck only looking at 3 years worth of data.

That aside, I agree that GW does have issues with how it's supposed to grow and the current board doesn't seem to have the knowledge or experience to do it. Wells seems to have pushed them to be more aggressive and leaner and trimmed a lot of fat (some of it that players still wanted, like Epic and BFG) which may help the company, but it hasn't helped the customer base. I don't think anything they do that pisses off the customer base is malicious, just misguided, or perhaps without the proper foresight and planning required to understand how players will react.

Of course if we consider the internet as the main vocal response than will always be negative. As for the fiscal response, I'm saving my vote on that one. I know we like to throw around that they're losing money but total net profits isn't the only factor to determine how profitable they were in the last year.


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MarsNZ wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
(their pricing apparently takes into account exchange rates as they claim no gains/losses on those).

Come shopping in New Zealand and you'll see this is either a massive lie, or some third party is doing some serious skimming. I can order from the USA, pay shipping, and still come out 25% ahead.

And that's from the US! Obviously not gonna mention how much I save shopping in China.

It's on their audited financial statements. If it's a lie, then it's a lie that an auditor agrees with. That or they're taking a loss on exchange rates somewhere else and you're making up for it. Either way they claim no net gain or loss on exchange rates.

EDIT: Put down the wrong kind of statement. I apologize.

Also, before anyone jumps on me about the audited statement thing, I can't account for how England does theirs but in the US the auditors are external to the company (CPAs, thats why they're known as Public Accountants as they don't work for their clients beyond being contracted to conduct the audit, which is required by Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP). Isn't learning fun?).

GW have never understood the concept of selling more at a lower price. GW gets very little of my money these days, if they actually had reasonable prices, I'd certainly buy more. If I could get 50 Mirkwood Elves for ~$200, I would have spent ~$200 on Mirkwood Elves... as it is, 50 of them cost $350... guess how much I've spent on Mirkwood Elves... $0.

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, that's what GW say. Mind you, GW are also known for bottlenecking stock supply to FLGS's when they open their own shop nearby, does that help them too? Mind you, can't blame them for this one, if I was selling product at a profit at wholesale and getting my arse kicked by the companies I was selling to at retail, I'd want to put a bullet in them too.

Except when those FLGS's have a stronger customer base than your own store and by putting trying to put a bullet in them you piss them off enough that they stop pushing your product.

It's plain to see that FLGS's around here have completely changed over the past 15 years, where stores used to have large prominently displayed GW sections, now they have tiny GW sections hidden amongst the Malifaux, Infinity, Reaper, RPG's, etc etc.

Meanwhile, the actual GW store is a ghost town compared to what it used to be.

It's a problem when you piss off FLGS's especially when those FLGS's were primarily where people played their games (as is the case around here).

 azreal13 wrote:
Short answer is because people will pay £30 for it.

Yup.

I would also note what was said before that you get a LOT more stuff with this kit than you used to. It used to be a model with a way to build it, while it's now several models (the main one of which is bigger) and a ton more bitz. There's just more there, there.

You could make the cynical comment that they're only adding more stuff to each sprue to drive up the price, but if they didn't, you'd hear equally loud complaints about how units have upgrades that can't be represented on the model, or how you're required to buy bitz to make units the way you want.

The only people who complain louder than people not getting what they want are those who get it.

Yeah, the broadside kit is pretty great, and was one of the few kits I feel is worth the money, because it happens to be one of the few kits that GW has that includes EVERY option they can take. Even down to drones, and oddly enough is one of the easiest ways to get a load of different drones. It's not like every tau player doesn't have 500 drones still sitting on sprue, and the broadside kit conveniently comes with the bits to make gun, shield, marker, and missiles drones. Was one of the few good buys I've gotten from them in a while, unlike some of their newer products *COUGH CODEX TYRANIDS COUGH COUGH*

Apparently (I asked one of gw staff) that there priced based on how efficient they are on tabletop. It doesn't make sense, any of it

Da Stormlord wrote:
Apparently (I asked one of gw staff) that there priced based on how efficient they are on tabletop. It doesn't make sense, any of it

Well, for one, GW staffers are no more clued in than anyone on this forum and are quite often more ignorant (the exception to that is if you happen to know one of the higher ups in GW HQ).

For two, the GW pricing system is clearly a mix of how big the model is, how many parts/sprues it has, how many points it's worth and what the marketing team had for lunch that day (ie. a large random element).

Da Stormlord wrote:
Apparently (I asked one of gw staff) that there priced based on how efficient they are on tabletop. It doesn't make sense, any of it

While that is a claim that exists, and may even had been true once upon a time, I am more willing to bet that behind it all there is an accountant who has a spreadsheet they use to help set the price.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Da Stormlord wrote:
Apparently (I asked one of gw staff) that there priced based on how efficient they are on tabletop. It doesn't make sense, any of it

While that is a claim that exists, and may even had been true once upon a time, I am more willing to bet that behind it all there is an accountant who has a spreadsheet they use to help set the price.

£18 for a plastic librarian is just one example that supports it and there are many others, they price for how often they sell you'll only buy one or two so they ramp up the price.

The new lotr stuff is also massively overpriced because the player base for that is much smaller.

hobojebus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Da Stormlord wrote:
Apparently (I asked one of gw staff) that there priced based on how efficient they are on tabletop. It doesn't make sense, any of it

While that is a claim that exists, and may even had been true once upon a time, I am more willing to bet that behind it all there is an accountant who has a spreadsheet they use to help set the price.

£18 for a plastic librarian is just one example that supports it and there are many others, they price for how often they sell you'll only buy one or two so they ramp up the price.

The new lotr stuff is also massively overpriced because the player base for that is much smaller.

Products that have smaller runs are generally more expensive in any industry. Character models are never going to sell in huge amounts, so they do them in smaller batches to decrease the amount of inventory that is just sitting around waiting, because of that the costs to make the product have to be spread out over a smaller base.

Believe me, business pricing of products is rarely as simple as "let's take them for everything they got". There are a fair number of factors that drive it and a pretty decent amount of math.

It's like talking to a spousal abuse victim with you apologists, against all Evidence you proclaim they love you even as the bruise darkens over your eye.

Their only metric for price is how often will it sell, if they sell often kits will be more reasonable, if they sell rarely they Jack up the price it's really that simple, and it's a stupid business model that year on year is hurting their profit margin.

When go from 35 million in 2005 down to 11 million in 2013 that's a really clear indication of poor management in a company and a failing plan.

They have share holders and are desperate to keep profits up but are doing all the wrong things, removing bricks and mortar stores as the heart of a local community is the perfect example, what used to be places filed with happy paying people are now ghost towns, they neglected community in favour of money and now that's come back to bite them hard in the ass.

hobojebus wrote:
It's like talking to a spousal abuse victim with you apologists, against all Evidence you proclaim they love you even as the bruise darkens over your eye.

Easy there Sparky. You'll note I never apologized for GW, and I've admitted they screw up and that the Board of Directors likely doesn't have the experience or the knowledge to grow the company past where it is.

The difference between our viewpoints is I'm not assuming it's malicious behavior, and I'm not assuming that GW is run by the Legion of Doom.

hobojebus wrote:
Their only metric for price is how often will it sell, if they sell often kits will be more reasonable, if they sell rarely they Jack up the price it's really that simple, and it's a stupid business model that year on year is hurting their profit margin.

Do you have proof that GW is doing this or just internet rhetoric? Because the internet loves to claim a lot of things without proof. Let me break this down into small bites so we can hopefully move beyond this idea alread: GW has accountants, said accountants are trained in a number of methods of tracking costs, and can easilly produce spreadsheets detailing breakeven points (when a product makes exactly enough money to cover costs) and so on. How do I know this? Because I'm sitting in accounting classes learning to do the same exact thing. That's part of the reason a company has bean counters.

And yes, bean counters are the driving force behind pricing everywhere. They're the ones who make sure a company's pricing covers all it's costs.

hobojebus wrote:
When go from 35 million in 2005 down to 11 million in 2013 that's a really clear indication of poor management in a company and a failing plan.

You're not factoring in the recession from ~2007 to ~2012 that took the legs out of a lot of companies in the luxury goods markets.

hobojebus wrote:
They have share holders and are desperate to keep profits up but are doing all the wrong things, removing bricks and mortar stores as the heart of a local community is the perfect example, what used to be places filed with happy paying people are now ghost towns, they neglected community in favour of money and now that's come back to bite them hard in the ass.

They basically had a choice to move the Brick and Mortars to lower costs (because online sellers selling things at 20-30% off hurts them just like it hurts your favorite little FLGS) or get rid of them. Honestly I'd probably started pulling them, beginning with the worst performing stores first, and consolidated around the stores that are performing well and run less stores instead of just trying to move them and give them a second chance, but that's just me.

As for "neglecting the community" I don't see think it's quite that far. What I do see a lot of though is GW releasing something and then lying back and thinking of England while the Internet basically gets in a line for their turn of GW.

GW is at worst incompetent. They aren't actively trying to screw customers over, and pricing isn't based solely on volume of sales (or we'd see $50 Pyrovores because they don't sell). There is a lot of hyperbole and frankly some asinine statements about the company running around online being spouted as "fact" (not to mention accusing someone who has a moderate stance of GW of white knighting, good job weakening any argument you had with ad hominem).

Because capitalism. That is why.
Now if we wait for May, we can start a revolution. March is not a good month for revolutions

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because capitalism. That is why.
Now if we wait for May, we can start a revolution. March is not a good month for revolutions

Reminds me of telling someone that criticizing a company for doing stuff "solely to make money" is rather pointless unless your a Marxist because that's what companies do in a market system.

That was yesterday morning on BoLS. Apparently some people start their day with coffee and the news, I've been starting mine with Economics and Accounting discussions.

The difference between our viewpoints is I'm not assuming it's malicious behavior, and I'm not assuming that GW is run by the Legion of Doom.

Not evil just extremely incompetent and driving the hobby into the ground with each passing year.

Do you have proof that GW is doing this or just internet rhetoric? Because the internet loves to claim a lot of things without proof. Let me break this down into small bites so we can hopefully move beyond this idea alread: GW has accountants, said accountants are trained in a number of methods of tracking costs, and can easilly produce spreadsheets detailing breakeven points (when a product makes exactly enough money to cover costs) and so on. How do I know this? Because I'm sitting in accounting classes learning to do the same exact thing. That's part of the reason a company has bean counters.

And yes, bean counters are the driving force behind pricing everywhere. They're the ones who make sure a company's pricing covers all it's costs.

I have the prices and what they are applied to, it does not take a massive amount of calculation too see the difference between a £2.50 tactical marine and a £18 librarian model, same size same approximate amount of plastic, same process used to make them.

You're not factoring in the recession from ~2007 to ~2012 that took the legs out of a lot of companies in the luxury goods markets.

If you know anything about economics you know spending on recreation goes up not down in a recession because people have a greater need for distraction.

They basically had a choice to move the Brick and Mortars to lower costs (because online sellers selling things at 20-30% off hurts them just like it hurts your favorite little FLGS) or get rid of them. Honestly I'd probably started pulling them, beginning with the worst performing stores first, and consolidated around the stores that are performing well and run less stores instead of just trying to move them and give them a second chance, but that's just me.

As for "neglecting the community" I don't see think it's quite that far. What I do see a lot of though is GW releasing something and then lying back and thinking of England while the Internet basically gets in a line for their turn of GW.

I live near stoke so my local store was the hanley store, it was busy and full of gamers two nights a week and did plenty of business then in 2005 a new GW manager took over and the decline started quickly first specialist games were outright banned from the store, then he ended the veteran night with no notice one week we went in and we were told vet night was over with.

That caused 2 member's of staff to quite that week one of which remains a close friend to this day, the result was alot of us had no where to play had no way to contact other people easily and so 30 odd vet's stopped playing the game i myself went from 2005 to 2012 without playing a GW product and without buying a GW model in this i was not alone.

That manager was fired not long after but the vet's never returned the store became a ghost town and its stayed that way, they beg you to bring your armies in there these days but no one does because they destroyed that place as the centre of our hobby.

GW poisoned the well all by themselves and the trouble they are having of late is purely the result of floating the company on the market and putting all their eggs in one basket with LOTR a game always destined to disappear as soon as the last film came out, they put money ahead of people and so generated all this forum hate.

It used to be a hobby that brought happiness to people, they made it a business that sold mini's at a premium price with poor rules that largely frustrates people.

GW is at worst incompetent. They aren't actively trying to screw customers over, and pricing isn't based solely on volume of sales (or we'd see $50 Pyrovores because they don't sell). There is a lot of hyperbole and frankly some asinine statements about the company running around online being spouted as "fact" (not to mention accusing someone who has a moderate stance of GW of white knighting, good job weakening any argument you had with ad hominem)

Thats not an AD HOMINEM, i drew an apt analogy with a person that takes abuse and does nothing to prevent future replays of the same events.

Besides you've been using the appeal to authority yourself so dont start trying to throw stones while in a glass house.

My only "appeal to authority" was asking for some evidence to support your claims on how they price things.

Frankly I'm done going back and forth because it's like arguing with a rock. The rock isn't going to stop being a rock just because I'm talking at it until I'm blue in the face so I'm done.

Oh, and during a recession spending on luxury goods goes down, spending on substitutes goes up and generally everyone tightens their belts. If you're going to throw economics at me at least throw the correct information at me.

http://www.supplychainbrain.com/content/nc/industry-verticals/retail/single-article-page/article/recession-what-recession-spending-on-luxury-items-topped-18tr-last-year/

One of the first results you get when you google for luxury spending during a recession.

And i could link a whole lot more so i feel just fine on that position.

You yourself have not provided any evidence it isnt price gouging just your opinion same as me, only i support my side with actual prices of GW model's and provide the comparison.

One of my best friends is just like you endlessly making excuses such as new molds cost x amount, the transfer sheet for night's isnt a rip off because reasons.

I've heard it for years.

When microsoft see's that the xbox one isnt selling they drop the price by £30 and released a combo box with a highly anticipated game titnafall free meaning that saved you £70.

When sony see's the PSP vita isn't selling well they release a new version with a lower res screen and a few other cost saving features for less than the original.

What no company with sense does it continually raise prices when they are losing money, GW are driving themselves out of business and i dont want that.

I want the rot cut out and the company to do well, and keeping silent and just pretending everything is fine wont do that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My only "appeal to authority" was asking for some evidence to support your claims on how they price things.

Frankly I'm done going back and forth because it's like arguing with a rock. The rock isn't going to stop being a rock just because I'm talking at it until I'm blue in the face so I'm done.

Oh, and during a recession spending on luxury goods goes down, spending on substitutes goes up and generally everyone tightens their belts. If you're going to throw economics at me at least throw the correct information at me.

Kirby himself has declared GW recession proof. He couldn't possibly be wrong could he?

 azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My only "appeal to authority" was asking for some evidence to support your claims on how they price things.

Frankly I'm done going back and forth because it's like arguing with a rock. The rock isn't going to stop being a rock just because I'm talking at it until I'm blue in the face so I'm done.

Oh, and during a recession spending on luxury goods goes down, spending on substitutes goes up and generally everyone tightens their belts. If you're going to throw economics at me at least throw the correct information at me.

Kirby himself has declared GW recession proof. He couldn't possibly be wrong could he?

Yes. Humans are incredibly fallible.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My only "appeal to authority" was asking for some evidence to support your claims on how they price things.

Frankly I'm done going back and forth because it's like arguing with a rock. The rock isn't going to stop being a rock just because I'm talking at it until I'm blue in the face so I'm done.

Oh, and during a recession spending on luxury goods goes down, spending on substitutes goes up and generally everyone tightens their belts. If you're going to throw economics at me at least throw the correct information at me.

Kirby himself has declared GW recession proof. He couldn't possibly be wrong could he?

Yes. Humans are incredibly fallible.

But Kirby is the God-Emperor of Mankind, hence not human