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So lately it seems that Games Workshop has decided to remove the Black Templars, to me at least. First, as time goes on, they seem to be mentioned less and less in White Dwarf, BL novels and ect. Second, they lost their book. Yes, I know we can still play them, but to me they feel less like crusading knights in space and more 5 man las/plas teams. Whereas their draw before was a CC marine army who avenged their fallen while carving legends from the flesh of their fallen enemies, now they feel like space marines with chainswords. And third, while im not sure how valid this may be, Ive heard that no one at GW likes the Templars.

Basically, what im asking is for some proof that my favorite army is not dead.

Is their any evidence

You know they have their own chapter tactics in the codex space marines rigth?
Having crusaders squads with iniates and neopythes along with dedicated LRC why would they not feel like BT? You still have helbretch and th Champion aswell.

Because they no longer have the rules that make them different than normal marines. While they do have their own chapter tactics, frankly their a shadow of what we used to be able to do. Helbrecht and Grimdalus are crap( but TBH, they were crap before) and the best unit we had- Reclusiarch- is gone! And what about the background? 4 pages of sub-par fluff. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh, maybe im being to picky. But it still feels like GW is trying to forget the Templars ever existed. Yeah, we have our own chapter tactics and whatnot, but whens the last time were mentioned in a book? Besides Helsreach, I mean.

I think it was an an interview at an Enter the Citadel event or something, but some folks at GW (Jervis or Andy Chambers, was a while ago) said that they kind of went a little too crazy with variant Space Marine chapters, the same as they were a little too ambitious with the Inquisition. Hell, there are White Dwarf issues that mention an upcoming Ordos Xenos codex that we never got because they were so Inquisition-happy for a while. It's just a matter of GW toning things back down to a more reasonable level, since now they have fewer codices to balance and keep track of. Of course all this sort of gets thrown out the window now that supplements are coming out so frequently, but most of them don't have many more rules than the Black Templars chapter tactics.The Templars aren't dead, they just took a few steps backward. Hell, the WD battle report for Codex: Space Marines was starring them!

Good point! I totally forgot about supplements. Perhaps well get one in the future...?

If you got marines painted black with swords, what more do you need to feel like you are playing Black Templar?

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
Good point! I totally forgot about supplements. Perhaps well get one in the future...?

That's what I'm hoping! There hasn't been much rhyme or reason to the supplement releases (as they've mostly been personal passion projects and not anything handed down from on high), but it'd make a lot of sense if there was one for Templars.

They're not dead, they just lost some character in exchange of new wargear and other goodies.

Well, thanks for the reassurance. TBH, I was just worried we were going the way of the squats. You know, book last edition (kinda), mention of us this edition in another book, next edition gone.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
Good point! I totally forgot about supplements. Perhaps well get one in the future...?

What would it add exactly? You already have army specific rules (Chapter Tactics), and a unique unit (Crusader Squads). So a page of relics and warlord traits? That's actually less stuff than people are complaining about rules wise than we get now.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If you got marines painted black with swords, what more do you need to feel like you are playing Black Templar?

How about an army that isn't rubbish except when running an inferior (to WS) bike list? An army that can reasonably play according to background without being trash-tier?

That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

Well that and the large amount of "Ignores Cover" stuff that came out that basically nerfed Infantry Hammer tactics.

Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

I honestly don't get that an I play Sisters. I mean I've got a codex that was first only in a magazine and now is only online. The army hasn't even seen a new model or unit edition since 3rd but I wouldn't say it's "not a real army".

Different mindsets I guess.

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

That is such an anecdotal bit of evidence and doesn't really suggest a mass exodus of BT players. Never underestimate a nerd's tendency to pick up his ball and go home.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

I honestly don't get that an I play Sisters. I mean I've got a codex that was first only in a magazine and now is only online. The army hasn't even seen a new model or unit edition since 3rd but I wouldn't say it's "not a real army".

Different mindsets I guess.

Not realy . the sob didn't lose much . BT lost a lot . 2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads and veteran skills. Machine spirit vindicators . Sure they can now take all the stuff marines take , but taking those marine options doesn't use the models people who bought BT have and those options still work better using other chapter rules . If BT don't have divination and their biker list is weaker then the WS&IH one , then they are as good as dead.

If sob suddenly lost exorcists and dominions , but instead could take cultists squads , then it maybe could have been the same . thing.

Don't worry, BT will get their own supplement for $50, with LE for $100.

 Brother SRM wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

That is such an anecdotal bit of evidence and doesn't really suggest a mass exodus of BT players. Never underestimate a nerd's tendency to pick up his ball and go home.

I <3 my templars!

Sons of Dorn!

Makumba wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

I honestly don't get that an I play Sisters. I mean I've got a codex that was first only in a magazine and now is only online. The army hasn't even seen a new model or unit edition since 3rd but I wouldn't say it's "not a real army".

Different mindsets I guess.

Not realy . the sob didn't lose much . BT lost a lot . 2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads and veteran skills. Machine spirit vindicators . Sure they can now take all the stuff marines take , but taking those marine options doesn't use the models people who bought BT have and those options still work better using other chapter rules . If BT don't have divination and their biker list is weaker then the WS&IH one , then they are as good as dead.

If sob suddenly lost exorcists and dominions , but instead could take cultists squads , then it maybe could have been the same . thing.

To be fair vanilla marines had to go through those same losses going from the 4th ed codex to 5th. Templars likely would have lost them anyway if they had gotten an updated codex on their own.

Makumba wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

I honestly don't get that an I play Sisters. I mean I've got a codex that was first only in a magazine and now is only online. The army hasn't even seen a new model or unit edition since 3rd but I wouldn't say it's "not a real army".

Different mindsets I guess.

Not realy . the sob didn't lose much . BT lost a lot . 2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads and veteran skills. Machine spirit vindicators . Sure they can now take all the stuff marines take , but taking those marine options doesn't use the models people who bought BT have and those options still work better using other chapter rules . If BT don't have divination and their biker list is weaker then the WS&IH one , then they are as good as dead.

If sob suddenly lost exorcists and dominions , but instead could take cultists squads , then it maybe could have been the same . thing.

Er, no. BT got access to many of the units and items they lacked that came from the same core army, aka the Space Marines got access to. They didn't get access to units from an entirely different army like in the Sisters example, that would be more like BT getting access to Necron Immortals.

Besides, if BT were a codex unto themselves as they were before, then they'd be in the same position as Dark Angels, relegated to the less competitive realm because they would suffer from the same deficiencies in comparison to some other current Space Marine release. At least this way the BT get updated every time the Space marine book gets updated.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

bs. BT got a bunch of rubbish rules and more or less nothing to support getting into melee, so they can't. That's the army's fault, not the edition. They could easily have gotten something to help them be faster than the measly buff Crusader provides (say, something like Righteous Zeal...), something to help neuter shooting or something to let them consolidate into combat once per turn, that they didn't isn't the fault of the edition, it's the fault of Codex: Space Marines, and it's (IMO) the root cause of why so many of us BT players are so upset. When we say it's "not BT" anymore it's because the army doesn't play anything near like what it used to (or, well, not if you want to have a chance of winning).

And yeah, I know, BT in 5th was better as a shooting army yadda yadda. There were still some assault elements that weren't completely worthless. There were some things that only BT could do. Now that's more or less reduced to 5-man lasplas squads, while the other Chapter Tactics do everything else better than us. We'd been the worst MEQ Codex for more or less an edition (depending on how good you rank the BA PDF Codex), and then we get a rubbish Chapter Tactics that doesn't let us play the army according to fluff without being slapped silly.

If we still had Codex: Black Templars from 4th edition it'd be the Edition's fault that we aren't competetive, but when we've got a shiny new Codex that's less than a year old and we're still rubbish it's that Codex's fault, not the Edition.

/endrant

nobody wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Local guy in our group sold off all of his BT stuff because he did not feel like it was a "real" army anymore. So at least someone else feels the same way, and felt strongly enough about it to sell his stuff.

I honestly don't get that an I play Sisters. I mean I've got a codex that was first only in a magazine and now is only online. The army hasn't even seen a new model or unit edition since 3rd but I wouldn't say it's "not a real army".

Different mindsets I guess.

Not realy . the sob didn't lose much . BT lost a lot . 2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads and veteran skills. Machine spirit vindicators . Sure they can now take all the stuff marines take , but taking those marine options doesn't use the models people who bought BT have and those options still work better using other chapter rules . If BT don't have divination and their biker list is weaker then the WS&IH one , then they are as good as dead.

If sob suddenly lost exorcists and dominions , but instead could take cultists squads , then it maybe could have been the same . thing.

To be fair vanilla marines had to go through those same losses going from the 4th ed codex to 5th. Templars likely would have lost them anyway if they had gotten an updated codex on their own.

Exactly. It is really less the BT losing stuff unique,they kept most of that, and rather more coming in line withe other Marine codex. Given the point drop you can actually run full crusaders squads.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

bs. BT got a bunch of rubbish rules and more or less nothing to support getting into melee, so they can't. That's the army's fault, not the edition. They could easily have gotten something to help them be faster than the measly buff Crusader provides (say, something like Righteous Zeal...), something to help neuter shooting or something to let them consolidate into combat once per turn, that they didn't isn't the fault of the edition, it's the fault of Codex: Space Marines, and it's (IMO) the root cause of why so many of us BT players are so upset. When we say it's "not BT" anymore it's because the army doesn't play anything near like what it used to (or, well, not if you want to have a chance of winning).

And yeah, I know, BT in 5th was better as a shooting army yadda yadda. There were still some assault elements that weren't completely worthless. There were some things that only BT could do. Now that's more or less reduced to 5-man lasplas squads, while the other Chapter Tactics do everything else better than us. We'd been the worst MEQ Codex for more or less an edition (depending on how good you rank the BA PDF Codex), and then we get a rubbish Chapter Tactics that doesn't let us play the army according to fluff without being slapped silly.

If we still had Codex: Black Templars from 4th edition it'd be the Edition's fault that we aren't competetive, but when we've got a shiny new Codex that's less than a year old and we're still rubbish it's that Codex's fault, not the Edition.

/endrant

EDIT:

 Accolade wrote:


Besides, if BT were a codex unto themselves as they were before, then they'd be in the same position as Dark Angels, relegated to the less competitive realm because they would suffer from the same deficiencies in comparison to some other current Space Marine release. At least this way the BT get updated every time the Space marine book gets updated.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if we get updated every edition when the updates do nothing to help the army.

One thing to keep in mind as well is Matthew Hutson (Lead Designer at White Dwarf) has been showing off his Black Templar army for years.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2190012a


The army makes a fairly regular appearance in their official media so I would not be too concerned.
It may not get all the love the "mainstream" SM armies get but far from something to be dropped from the lore.
I would also say as an author that trying to write about SM's that prefer to fight in melee in a sci-fi setting and are a bunch of religious zealots would be "challenging".
As a table-top army to play, these bunch of nutters are a whole lot of fun.
I have had to embrace their more "shooty" side with 6th ed. since it is insanely difficult to take someone by surprise and jump into melee (never mind not getting shot to death).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

bs. BT got a bunch of rubbish rules and more or less nothing to support getting into melee, so they can't. That's the army's fault, not the edition. They could easily have gotten something to help them be faster than the measly buff Crusader provides (say, something like Righteous Zeal...), something to help neuter shooting or something to let them consolidate into combat once per turn, that they didn't isn't the fault of the edition, it's the fault of Codex: Space Marines, and it's (IMO) the root cause of why so many of us BT players are so upset. When we say it's "not BT" anymore it's because the army doesn't play anything near like what it used to (or, well, not if you want to have a chance of winning).
:

WIth rules like wounds taken from the front and overwatch I think that this edition's rules has a *lot* to do with the neutering of *everyone's* ability to assault, let alone BT.

 Accolade wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

bs. BT got a bunch of rubbish rules and more or less nothing to support getting into melee, so they can't. That's the army's fault, not the edition. They could easily have gotten something to help them be faster than the measly buff Crusader provides (say, something like Righteous Zeal...), something to help neuter shooting or something to let them consolidate into combat once per turn, that they didn't isn't the fault of the edition, it's the fault of Codex: Space Marines, and it's (IMO) the root cause of why so many of us BT players are so upset. When we say it's "not BT" anymore it's because the army doesn't play anything near like what it used to (or, well, not if you want to have a chance of winning).
:

WIth rules like wounds taken from the front and overwatch I think that this edition's rules has a *lot* to do with the neutering of *everyone's* ability to assault, let alone BT.

But then the solution would be something like "due to their insane religious zealotry, Black Templar models are not removed as casualties as a result of Overwatch until the unit has moved into base combat" or some variation thereof, not "oh well, them's the breaks and there's nothing we can do about it". It's only the edition's fault because GW didn't do something about it.

 Accolade wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

bs. BT got a bunch of rubbish rules and more or less nothing to support getting into melee, so they can't. That's the army's fault, not the edition. They could easily have gotten something to help them be faster than the measly buff Crusader provides (say, something like Righteous Zeal...), something to help neuter shooting or something to let them consolidate into combat once per turn, that they didn't isn't the fault of the edition, it's the fault of Codex: Space Marines, and it's (IMO) the root cause of why so many of us BT players are so upset. When we say it's "not BT" anymore it's because the army doesn't play anything near like what it used to (or, well, not if you want to have a chance of winning).
:

WIth rules like wounds taken from the front and overwatch I think that this edition's rules has a *lot* to do with the neutering of *everyone's* ability to assault, let alone BT.

Exactly. I haven't seen an army yet that has anything that really counters to the edition's rules to make their assault units better. And it's not like BT are the only ones who got spanked with the Nerf Paddle in that regards either: Khorne Berzerkers are on that list as well as Genestealers, Orks and more.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That isn't the army's fault as much as the edition's fault.

bs. BT got a bunch of rubbish rules and more or less nothing to support getting into melee, so they can't. That's the army's fault, not the edition. They could easily have gotten something to help them be faster than the measly buff Crusader provides (say, something like Righteous Zeal...), something to help neuter shooting or something to let them consolidate into combat once per turn, that they didn't isn't the fault of the edition, it's the fault of Codex: Space Marines, and it's (IMO) the root cause of why so many of us BT players are so upset. When we say it's "not BT" anymore it's because the army doesn't play anything near like what it used to (or, well, not if you want to have a chance of winning).
:

WIth rules like wounds taken from the front and overwatch I think that this edition's rules has a *lot* to do with the neutering of *everyone's* ability to assault, let alone BT.

Exactly. I haven't seen an army yet that has anything that really counters to the edition's rules to make their assault units better. And it's not like BT are the only ones who got spanked with the Nerf Paddle in that regards either: Khorne Berzerkers are on that list as well as Genestealers, Orks and more.

In the case of Khorne Berzerkers and Genestealers it STILL isn't somehow magically "the edition's fault". It's the fault of the Codices for not giving them some sort of loophole, whether that be Genestealers that are allowed to assault from outflanking or Berzerkers that can assault from any vehicle. Orks are fair enough, they haven't gotten a new Codex since 6th, so their problems are due to the edition changing, but the others are Codex failures.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In the case of Khorne Berzerkers and Genestealers it STILL isn't somehow magically "the edition's fault". It's the fault of the Codices for not giving them some sort of loophole, whether that be Genestealers that are allowed to assault from outflanking or Berzerkers that can assault from any vehicle. Orks are fair enough, they haven't gotten a new Codex since 6th, so their problems are due to the edition changing, but the others are Codex failures.

The vehicles in the Chaos Codex can at least take Dirge Casters! Screw your overwatch!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
In the case of Khorne Berzerkers and Genestealers it STILL isn't somehow magically "the edition's fault". It's the fault of the Codices for not giving them some sort of loophole, whether that be Genestealers that are allowed to assault from outflanking or Berzerkers that can assault from any vehicle. Orks are fair enough, they haven't gotten a new Codex since 6th, so their problems are due to the edition changing, but the others are Codex failures.

The edition is what set the tone for the books that fall into it. The development mindset is to take some of the teeth back out of assualt. The fact that it's carried through the edition regardless of codex does make it the edition's fault, at least to me. Heck, you want to talk about Assault Nerfs I want you to look at what they did to Repentia. I could reliably kill up to 4 UNITS a game with a single squad of them and now I can't even get them to the midfield!

Regardless, complaining that BT don't have super awesome assault options when everyone else lost theirs as well just comes across as selfish. When everyone is in the same boat and one person is crying about how much worse it is for them despite being in the same exact boat that person just won't get a lot of sympathy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In the case of Khorne Berzerkers and Genestealers it STILL isn't somehow magically "the edition's fault". It's the fault of the Codices for not giving them some sort of loophole, whether that be Genestealers that are allowed to assault from outflanking or Berzerkers that can assault from any vehicle. Orks are fair enough, they haven't gotten a new Codex since 6th, so their problems are due to the edition changing, but the others are Codex failures.

The vehicles in the Chaos Codex can at least take Dirge Casters! Screw your overwatch!

If they survive long enough to reach the other side of the table. The armies you want the Dirge Casters for (Tau, Guard) can easily clean a large number of vehicles off the table in a turn.

Plus the only assault vehicle that can take them is the Godhammer, which is only a dedicated transport for a very small number of units, which means most units are stuck with the Rhinos they can't assault out of if they want an assault vehicle.