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Almost everyone thinks one of the new changes should never have been made, where do you stand?

Most of them.

Game wise, most of them are poorly implemented, unbalanced, and add a lot of bloat to an already bloaty game. They almost universally reek of a quick cash grab with no thought to the future of the game beyond the next quarter.

Maybe I'm just bitter, but 40k should probably make up its mind what kind of game it wants to be. If it wants to be a massive, company level 28mm game, then so be it, but the rulebook should at least make an attempt to be streamlined for that amount of models/size of models.

At this point, they might as well do away with the FoC too, what with all the options that ignore it.

Not a fan of the direction. Would have much preferred less codices that have been better developed with expanded options in the books. Oh, and balance. Balance would be nice too.

Do we need 6 negative threads on the front page?

I'm not surprised Escalation and Formations are leading already. If GW wanted people to use more Super Heavies and formations they should of just promoted Apoc more.

The Dataslates being among the higher surprises me though. If all GW did as stick to dataslates for random special characters (Be'Lakor and Cypher) I don't think most people would mind.

Personally I also voted for Imperial Knights for 2 reasons. First is they are a Super Heavy and those should stay in Apoc. Second is that they represent the current trend of an arms race GW has between armies to see who can have the biggest MC/Super Heavy unit.

I would say LotD, only because, WTF why must they be a separate army, they would have been better served as a C:SM supplement. It just adds to the number of unnecessary codices. That and you need allies if they are your primary detachment.

The rest i can deal with, my meta isn't hyper-competitive like everyonelse, and some of our group takes IKs or Aquila Strongpoints, but all in all we still have fun with it. It just seems that the competitive/tournament mentality has pervaded this forum so much, anything not competitive is frowned upon (like MEQ in general).

Modifiers. To hit and save modifiers.

And almost all the other stuff.

I was going to start clicking all the options, but after thinking about it for a moment, it's hard to really say that these things "should never have been made". I'll agree that it seems kinda bloaty, but honestly I don't think any of this would have been a problem if it wasn't so poorly implemented.

About the only thing I really don't like are flyers. I mean I like flyer models, mainly FW's since most of GW's look like crap, but they don't really make much sense at this scale...unless everything has a "hover" mode.

4th edition CSM.

Also Escalation.

I think that all of them have their place. Superheavies are perhaps the hardest to deal with, but the only thing that really makes it into the "I wish this hadn't been put into the game" is D weapons.

Why isn't the inability to charge out of vehicles up there?

 Sidstyler wrote:
I was going to start clicking all the options, but after thinking about it for a moment, it's hard to really say that these things "should never have been made". I'll agree that it seems kinda bloaty, but honestly I don't think any of this would have been a problem if it wasn't so poorly implemented.

About the only thing I really don't like are flyers. I mean I like flyer models, mainly FW's since most of GW's look like crap, but they don't really make much sense at this scale...unless everything has a "hover" mode.

I had much the same thought looking at the poll. It’s not that I have a problem with any of the things, just how they were implemented.

For example, all the one unit codexes don’t need to exist. I like the concept of the inquisition or LotD showing up in imperial lists, but a “codex” with special FOC exceptions is not the way to do it. The knights are the same. Call it a unit that goes in the LOW slot.

I think escalation and formations would probably be better served as optional supplements, not part of the core rules. But that can be fixed with house rules and what the TO allows. I think the concept of formations has potential, but the implementation is piss-poor.

If the poll was “could have been done better” or “not done the way it was” I’d have clicked a lot more boxes. But “never” is very strong. You can look at most of the things listed and think how it could have been done, and think that it would have been fine.

GW: B+ for ideas, D- for execution.

Design wise, GW should have never strayed away from 2nd edition. It's obvious they want to go back to 2nd Ed's more loose and wacky style but they're stuck with the shackles they put on themselves with 3rd and onward.

I like every change to the game, and I mean every one. I think it has made the game more accessible to new players, and more diverse. Playing campaigns is now much easier, as is recreating historic battles in the 40k universe. I have yet to find a lack of balance to any of the above additions to the game, the only issues I see in 40k at present are the few 4th and 5th ed codexes left to be updated, and the fact that 2 6th ed codexes are obviously OP.

I like the game as it is now. (except maybe for d weapons)
Please, why do we need so much doom and gloom threads. It always seem to be the same people complaining and making endless whiny threads about it.
If you are going to give criticism, make sure it is substantive, constructive criticism. Otherwise you might as well not say anything at all. Threads like this are pointless.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I like the game as it is now. (except maybe for d weapons)
Please, why do we need so much doom and gloom threads. It always seem to be the same people complaining and making endless whiny threads about it.
If you are going to give criticism, make sure it is substantive, constructive criticism. Otherwise you might as well not say anything at all. Threads like this are pointless.

Good man.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I like the game as it is now. (except maybe for d weapons)
Please, why do we need so much doom and gloom threads. It always seem to be the same people complaining and making endless whiny threads about it.
If you are going to give criticism, make sure it is substantive, constructive criticism. Otherwise you might as well not say anything at all. Threads like this are pointless.

Reason I made this thread is because I was wondering where everyone stands. I personally like all the additions and field fliers, fortifications, inquisition, LOTD, imperial knights, and more. I personally think people just like what they are used to and once they get used to the new stuff it will be defended once it gets chagned lol,

Escalation and Formations.

I'm of the opinion that super heavies belong in Apoc games. that's what makes them special.

I'm also of the opinion that formations that circumvent the FOC chart are silly. Why have the FOC chart, then?

I'm hoping for a compilation of the data sheets in book form, like the upcoming Alter of War book will compile all of those electronic versions. If we don't get that, then I'd like to add datasheets/dataslates to the BS list. I want a published book, please.

tournaments.

Inquisition (This is just stupid. Extra allies? With no FoC? Nope. I refuse to play anyone who exploits this)
Escalation (super heavies belong in Apoc ONLY.)
Imperial Knights (see above)
Dataslates (Oh yay! More rules! Wait, what? $20 bucks for 3 pieces of paper?)
Legion of the ****ed (Just roll it into Codex SM)

Mine is Escalation...super heavies themselves are not the problem, it's all the ranged D that some of them can throw downfield and the rules basically saying "part of the normal game, deal"

Formations and the mini-dexes don't bother me...we've had this type of stuff before (original Grey Knights come to mind for "formations" and the kroot merc rules for the "mini-dex"). I do think the prices being charged for them are somewhat silly though.

By the same token the new Imperial Knights don't bother me. They're walkers that don't have the same drawbacks everybody hates about walkers in 6th.

Pretty much everything IMO. Fliers are unbalanced, fortifications are a silly concept, escalation of course, things like the Imperial Knight should have stayed in Epic (which itself should have been kept alive). Random charts everywhere should have stayed in Rogue Trader. Dataslates should have been for optional "cinematic/narrative" rules not to put out a half-assed book and then improve it with DLC.

Basically I'd rather have 3rd edition with extras to fix the pain points of that edition, then Apocalypse as a variant for very large battles (assuming no Epic - ideal world would be Epic again) and Superheavies being special Forgeworld-only optional things for collectors with free rules provided for Apocalypse type games with opponent's permission.

If I HAD to pick one, probably escalation, because Str D is silly. Sillier than the riptide, even.

None. Everything that is added is just that, added. Nothing is taken away, and nothing is forced on you. Should you want, you get the option to expand or alter your games, and if you don't want to, no one can make you.

Nothing is compulsory, nothing is removed, so if you liked 40k pre-escalation/pre-fliers/pre-whatever, you can just keep playing at that level. If someone brings something you're not happy with, you aren't forced into playing.

 Paradigm wrote:
None. Everything that is added is just that, added. Nothing is taken away, and nothing is forced on you. Should you want, you get the option to expand or alter your games, and if you don't want to, no one can make you.

Nothing is compulsory, nothing is removed, so if you liked 40k pre-escalation/pre-fliers/pre-whatever, you can just keep playing at that level. If someone brings something you're not happy with, you aren't forced into playing.

But what about the tournaments! You know, the ones we are all playing 24/7 and never playing anything else. Where we face an enemy with a million Str D weapons and we only get 5 imperial guardsmen! Where they get 20 fliers and we get half a quad gun with nobody to man it? You know! The tournaments!

 Paradigm wrote:
None. Everything that is added is just that, added. Nothing is taken away, and nothing is forced on you. Should you want, you get the option to expand or alter your games, and if you don't want to, no one can make you.

Nothing is compulsory, nothing is removed, so if you liked 40k pre-escalation/pre-fliers/pre-whatever, you can just keep playing at that level. If someone brings something you're not happy with, you aren't forced into playing.

Until GW revises the rules and makes Escalation/LoW baseline in the rulebook (as the rumor states they will do for 6.5/7th edition). Then it's no longer an option, and you can turn up for a random game with somebody who decides to play a Titan just because they can and you can't say anything about it other than refuse to play, because it's now no longer an addition but as ingrained as Flyers.

WayneTheGame wrote:
and you can turn up for a random game with somebody who decides to play a Titan just because they can and you can't say anything about it other than refuse to play

I don't have a problem with that at all. Just say no!

Honestly, besides escalation being implemented at too low a points threshold, most of the problems stem from one mechanic that was brand new to 6th Ed.: ALLIES!

Get rid of standardized Allies and you relieve a whole host of problems.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
Do we need 6 negative threads on the front page?

I like to call that a good start

I think that most of the changes in the poll should never have been made, not because of balance or competition, but because they are quickly trying to push the game outside of the limitations of both the core rules and 28mm scale.
I dabble in game design, and conceptually the core rules focus on a squad to platoon sized skirmish game. Los and cover are both drawn by models, not units, and alot of the rules focus on model placement rather than unit placement, which is standard in skirmish scale games. Codexes and especially the new units are designed for larger company level engagements. Flyers, superheavies, supersized monstrous creatures and formations don't really fit into the skirmish scale rules of the BRB. Units and abilities are available in large numbers with the capability to hit anything on the table. Fast models have the capability to move from one corner of the board to another in a single turn. These changes make movement and deployment meaningless in 40k. Superheavies are a new form of herohammer where a single model dictates the terms of the game. If I include a titan, the game will mostly be won or lost depending on if my opponent can neutralize that one model or if it has free reign to wipe whole squads from the table. GW is trying to grow 6th edition outwards and upwards, but it is hamstrung by the size of the models and the size of the table.

At this point, I feel that 40k would be a much better game if it was scaled to 15mm and had rules more similar to epic than 40k. Weapons and movent would need to be scaled in kind. The scale would accommodate the larger units and formations GW wants to include while also making the game work on a 6x4 while still requiring maneuvering and decrease the impact of high point units or models. The core rules need to be streamlined with more emphasis on unit interactions rather than models. As it stands, 40k doesn't have direction or a scale consistent with their rules

Are there some good ideas? You bet.

Fliers, fortifications, formations are all strong ideas yet GW just throw these things into the game without thought. Coupled with the inelegant, poorly edited mess, that are the rules and codexes for 6th ed you have bad things waiting to happen.

I would like to like the changes more but I refuse to continue to play a system where I pay for a LOTD dataslate and then have to make up my own rules to get them to appear in game.