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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
How could a fan of the 40k universe NOT hate on GW? That's the better questions IMO.

By not being that emotionally involved in GW's shenanigans. I disapprove of things GW does, or have times when I wonder what they're smoking, but I don't hate them.

One would have to have a well above avarge monthly income ready to spend on w40k to not be emotionaly involved in what GW is doing. The fact that one has to spend 300$ on rulebooks alone is enough to drive away people from the game .

Makumba wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
How could a fan of the 40k universe NOT hate on GW? That's the better questions IMO.

By not being that emotionally involved in GW's shenanigans. I disapprove of things GW does, or have times when I wonder what they're smoking, but I don't hate them.

One would have to have a well above avarge monthly income ready to spend on w40k to not be emotionaly involved in what GW is doing. The fact that one has to spend 300$ on rulebooks alone is enough to drive away people from the game .

I'm an currently an unemployed College student whose hobby money is largely from whatever doesn't go towards school from my GI Bill checks (in otherwords, not much). Be that as it may, I still don't hate what GW when they wear their pants atop their head. I just shake my head, cluck my teeth and take a moment to consider if it's pushed me too far keep going and for now it is not.

Worse case scenario I'll likely shift over to Warmachine and a Convergence army, but for now at least, I haven't been pushed too far away from the game yet. Far enough that I decided not to try and submit a CV to GW for a dev position this year, but not far enough that I want to quit playing the game. I'm kind of in a "wait and see" mode concerning GW at the moment I guess.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Worse case scenario I'll likely shift over to Warmachine and a Convergence army, but for now at least, I haven't been pushed too far away from the game yet.

Well, do you not have enough model to continue playing 40k comfortably even without buying some for a while ? Just start this Convergence army, you will just get much more versatility on when/with whom you can get a game ! Also, new game mechanics means you will make tons of mistake in Warmachine at the beginning, like not completing one model activation before moving the next because of the 40k habits and therefore loosing your chances to attack, which is fun .
But seriously, the game mechanic part is very very different, and quite interesting. 40k is mostly about killing stuff with brute force. The way Warmachine is done, even if by turn 2, 90% of your army is gone, and the enemy army is still completely untouched, you may still be in a very, very good situation if you have set the perfect situation for an assassination on the enemy warcaster. That makes the game feel more like some kind of puzzle and less like brute force.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:

While a lot of what you're saying is true, I think there are a lot of posters here, myself included, that would usually defend GW. However, most people will only take so much gak before becoming vocal.

Less than three months ago, I had planned on applying for a job with G-dubs. Now? Not with a bargepole.

I wouldn't dispute that but it doesn't go against what I'm saying. If you go into a thread and it's first page is the same 10 names saying 6th sucks, melee sucks, GW sucks, it makes not posting far easier, especially if you suspect at least 1 of them will fly into personal attacks if you dare say you are still enjoying it.

While I do understand and agree that that is off-putting to say the least, I personally am ready to listen to people that will debate reasonably, as opposed to some of the other posters in the thread.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

You admit that are are now on the other side of the fence, it's a lot easier when these people are at your back rather than shouting abuse in your face. As a result people will simply shake their head and metaphorically walk on by. I do it all the time, I hit the reply button with a reply on the tip of my tongue then decide it's just not worth the hassle. Dakka has a very negative "Forum Mafia" that like to descend on threads and make sure any positive voice is drowned out in a tide of hate. I have no problems standing up against that but if I don't care significantly about the topic then I just leave them to it and given the level of personal attacks in some threads that level of care required is rising with almost every post.

This however is one of those times when I feel putting my hand up and saying I still love 40k and what they are doing (barring the odd decision because I'm never gonna agree with everything *anyone* says) needs to be said.

Absolutely, and this is the main problem. I'd wager that everyone in this thread, as you so rightly said, cares enough about the topic, and thereby 40K, to throw down their opinion regardless. I still love 40k, make no mistake. Like many others, I love the models (they're overpriced, to be sure, but I love them nonetheless), I love the fluff, and to a certain extent the game.

But GW =/= 40K.

So I don't love GW. I don't even like GW at this point, because they seem not to like us. So while I do love 40K, I detest what GW is doing to it at this point in time. If GW were to turn around and drop prices, I'd like them a lot more.

As for the forum Mafia, well... I don't know if that's true or not, but... sticks and stones, IMO.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Worse case scenario I'll likely shift over to Warmachine and a Convergence army, but for now at least, I haven't been pushed too far away from the game yet.

Well, do you not have enough model to continue playing 40k comfortably even without buying some for a while ? Just start this Convergence army, you will just get much more versatility on when/with whom you can get a game ! Also, new game mechanics means you will make tons of mistake in Warmachine at the beginning, like not completing one model activation before moving the next because of the 40k habits and therefore loosing your chances to attack, which is fun .
But seriously, the game mechanic part is very very different, and quite interesting. 40k is mostly about killing stuff with brute force. The way Warmachine is done, even if by turn 2, 90% of your army is gone, and the enemy army is still completely untouched, you may still be in a very, very good situation if you have set the perfect situation for an assassination on the enemy warcaster. That makes the game feel more like some kind of puzzle and less like brute force.

I don't have the time or energy to focus on two games right now, and while I've got plenty of Sisters it's the same basic army I've been running since 2009 so I was looking at starting a second army for that.

And I know about Warmachine, we have a few folks who play locally, it's just not as interesting to me as 40k (Sci fi trumps Fantasy for me), so until the balance shifts to the point where I'm fed up with 40k I'm not likely to start a second game right now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't have the time or energy to focus on two games right now

How is focusing on two games more time-consuming that focusing on two armies for the same game ? Even though learning new game mechanics take time, the lower model requirement of Warmachine can compensate that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
and while I've got plenty of Sisters it's the same basic army I've been running since 2009 so I was looking at starting a second army for that.

My Sister army is the same I have been running since 2003, modulo rule changes .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't have the time or energy to focus on two games right now

How is focusing on two games more time-consuming that focusing on two armies for the same game ? Even though learning new game mechanics take time, the lower model requirement of Warmachine can compensate that.

Because I'm a college student,. Learning a new game right now may replace the algebra I need to pass the semester.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
and while I've got plenty of Sisters it's the same basic army I've been running since 2009 so I was looking at starting a second army for that.

My Sister army is the same I have been running since 2003, modulo rule changes .

I'd have a little more variety if I'd ever bought in on Stormtroopers or Immo Spam but since I didn't it's the same thing, sans the Repentia now.

And while I can probably just slap the new Stormies into my army and call it "Improved" I mostly want to give them some time off before I decide that I get tired of playing them and don't pick them up when they eventually go plastic.

Plus there are only so many times I want to replay the same shooting contests against Tau and Guard over and over and over again.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Because I'm a college student,. Learning a new game right now may replace the algebra I need to pass the semester.

I am a PhD student, and learning Warmachine did not replace my graph theory skills. Tested for your convenience . Plus, new probability problems to work on !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd have a little more variety if I'd ever bought in on Stormtroopers or Immo Spam but since I didn't it's the same thing, sans the Repentia now.

Do you have Celestine and Seraphim and an Exorcist ? Because that is all the variety we can get anyway !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Because I'm a college student,. Learning a new game right now may replace the algebra I need to pass the semester.

I am a PhD student, and learning Warmachine did not replace my graph theory skills. Tested for your convenience . Plus, new probability problems to work on !

I'm a business admin major who dumped 18 credits into their schedule for their second semester back at school for the first time since 2004. Last thing I need to do is add more to the Algebra II, Business Law, Accounting and Macroeconomics I'm already beating into my brain at the moment.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd have a little more variety if I'd ever bought in on Stormtroopers or Immo Spam but since I didn't it's the same thing, sans the Repentia now.

Do you have Celestine and Seraphim and an Exorcist ? Because that is all the variety we can get anyway !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
3 Exorcists (4th in a box unbuilt), 10 Seraphim (not counting my Superiors, one is a Stern model I got off eBay (possibly a recast, but a good quality one in metal so I'm not mad about it)), Celestine, Jacobus, Kyrinov, a couple Canoness models, a slew of Sisters models, 4 Rhinos, a full unit of Repentia (plus extras), a Stormlord I use for them in the rare times I play Apoc and 2 Avengers.

So you have all the diversity there is. Now if you want to encourage GW not to support Sisters as it only means you will buy even more models from them, well, do as you want . I know I am more happy with Warmachine.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
3 Exorcists (4th in a box unbuilt), 10 Seraphim (not counting my Superiors, one is a Stern model I got off eBay (possibly a recast, but a good quality one in metal so I'm not mad about it)), Celestine, Jacobus, Kyrinov, a couple Canoness models, a slew of Sisters models, 4 Rhinos, a full unit of Repentia (plus extras), a Stormlord I use for them in the rare times I play Apoc and 2 Avengers.

So you have all the diversity there is. Now if you want to encourage GW not to support Sisters as it only means you will buy even more models from them, well, do as you want . I know I am more happy with Warmachine.

I bought all of that outside of like 10 models direct from GW. And this means in blister packs. And I paid the ridiculious prices. I can't show anymore support unless I show up at Kirby's place and then light myself on fire in protest.

It's that lack of diversity that has me looking at a second army. I'm half tempted to do Dark Eldar but knowing my luck that'll just lead to them not getting updated until 9th edition.

As for Warmachine, I've got the core rulebook around here. It's a bloody tome of stuff to learn and I just don't think I'm up for it right now. I'm just not that invested in it (as mentioned) because fantasy has always taken a back seat to sci-fi for me, so until GW pisses me off so bad that it taints my enjoyment of the game I'm not jumping systems, people trying to convert me or not. Why? Because I already tried getting into Warmachine but I was FAR less invested because I still had a game to fall back onto that I own stuff for right now, versus one that I need to buy a whole bunch of stuff for and learn on top of it.

Worse case scenario I'll likely shift over to Warmachine and a Convergence army, but for now at least, I haven't been pushed too far away from the game yet.

So you want to tell me that it is possible to support more then one system , while having no job , with just that Gi thing what ever it is . Yeah that is what I would call well above avarge income. When my sister went to university , she was send food every two weeks , because the cost of rend for one room , which she was sharing with 2 other friends .

Makumba wrote:

Worse case scenario I'll likely shift over to Warmachine and a Convergence army, but for now at least, I haven't been pushed too far away from the game yet.

So you want to tell me that it is possible to support more then one system , while having no job , with just that Gi thing what ever it is . Yeah that is what I would call well above avarge income. When my sister went to university , she was send food every two weeks , because the cost of rend for one room , which she was sharing with 2 other friends .

Yes it's possible, but I don't think people seem to understand that I don't want to right now. As I said earlier (twice) I am much more strongly attracted to sci fi over Fantasy. As long as I have a game to fall back onto I'm just not the kind of person to pick up another one and start learning/paying for/playing it too. As long as I don't get a bitter taste in my mouth thinking about 40k or what-have-you I just won't have the desire to find something to replace the game nor will I bother picking anything else up. It's just who I am, so can we please [i[kindly[/i] stop trying to badger me into playing another game already? As I've said, I tried getting into it but because 40k is at a scale I enjoy more I prefer more that instead and in the end just wasn't that excited to jump into a game that, to me, wasn't as interesting as the one I already play. So can we move on now?

Christ, people who want you to play Warmachine are a good second reason to not care about the game so much. Mention one word of the game and it's like you covered yourself in catnip and walked into a cat show: you just can't get them to stop apparently. Sometimes "No" or "I'm just not that interested" means just that. We're not playing hard to get people, we just want to play the games we want to play and don't need to be badgered into it.

And the Montgomery GI Bill is a government provided allotment of money for college tuition costs. The 9/11 GI Bill covers cost of living and books on top of that too but I'm not using that yet because if I use up the 3 years I'm alloted of the first one I'll be given a year of the 9/11 one. And that's calendar years, counted by months I'm in school for even part of the month.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

But seriously, the game mechanic part is very very different, and quite interesting. 40k is mostly about killing stuff with brute force. The way Warmachine is done, even if by turn 2, 90% of your army is gone, and the enemy army is still completely untouched, you may still be in a very, very good situation if you have set the perfect situation for an assassination on the enemy warcaster. That makes the game feel more like some kind of puzzle and less like brute force.

This is the very thing that turned me off from Warmachine (besides the aesthetic). The fact that most of your army was entirely inconsequential made it boring for me. It smacked of hero-hammer which I loathe (and is why I gave up on fantasy).

As for the original topic, being a consumer of a product doesn't require you to love the producing company. Quite honestly, GW is no more callous and uptight than any other consumer product producing company that is publicly traded. Its just made more pronounced by the lack of peers in the industry and the smaller scale of a niche market. Their closest competitor is still much smaller and has far less market share. GW is the proverbial big fish in the small pond, so when they do things that a company like Toyota or Coca-Cola wouldn't bat an eye lash over, a small portion of GWs consumer base lose their mind. However, because the consumer base is so much smaller, those few dissenting voices sound much louder.

I personally never understood the purpose of hate-spewing for a game of all things. What's stranger still is that the more dedicated haters are constantly posting on forums dedicated to the game they hate so much, to the point that one has to wonder if that is all they do with their day. If other games are so superior, why don't they just hang out in those forums and discuss the game like civilized folk?

I have one one game ever. ONE. and I thoroughly enjoy every game I play. I will be the first to admit I get a mildly creepy grin on my face when I see my models on the field. I have been angry at GW at times (I play chaos marines after all) but the good massively out ways the bad.

Simple answer.... Buy from chines offsellers.
Fixes how expensive it is, and shows GW they dont rule the world

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Simple answer.... Buy from chines offsellers.
Fixes how expensive it is, and shows GW they dont rule the world

They have no way of knowing how many people are doing that, so I don't think it'll help them understand the point any better honestly.

Hollismason wrote:
Uh Games Workshop is a successful company, and probably does at least twice the volume of sales of any miniature company out there. I don't even have to look it up, unless Privateteer Press suddenly exploded without notice and who ever owns it is now a millionaire.

Of course it's a privately owned company.

No its not, it has a publicly traded stock, one that fell a lot in value recently

BTW sales have fallen and GW is shutting down portions of its operations in order to survive

That is not the sign of a successful company

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Uh Games Workshop is a successful company, and probably does at least twice the volume of sales of any miniature company out there. I don't even have to look it up, unless Privateteer Press suddenly exploded without notice and who ever owns it is now a millionaire.

Of course it's a privately owned company.

No its not, it has a publicly traded stock, one that fell a lot in value recently

BTW sales have fallen and GW is shutting down portions of its operations in order to survive

That is not the sign of a successful company

GW was also very over bloated, even after realizing they had to trim down in 2007 when they actually lost money (and I mean they had a net loss year) and have been stripping things down for a few years now.

I still think their brick and mortars are still likely losing them more money than they're gaining but part of it might be the reputation they have because of a rather ruthless sales department.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Worse case scenario I'll likely shift over to Warmachine and a Convergence army, but for now at least, I haven't been pushed too far away from the game yet.

So you want to tell me that it is possible to support more then one system , while having no job , with just that Gi thing what ever it is . Yeah that is what I would call well above avarge income. When my sister went to university , she was send food every two weeks , because the cost of rend for one room , which she was sharing with 2 other friends .

Yes it's possible, but I don't think people seem to understand that I don't want to right now. As I said earlier (twice) I am much more strongly attracted to sci fi over Fantasy. As long as I have a game to fall back onto I'm just not the kind of person to pick up another one and start learning/paying for/playing it too. As long as I don't get a bitter taste in my mouth thinking about 40k or what-have-you I just won't have the desire to find something to replace the game nor will I bother picking anything else up. It's just who I am, so can we please [i[kindly[/i] stop trying to badger me into playing another game already? As I've said, I tried getting into it but because 40k is at a scale I enjoy more I prefer more that instead and in the end just wasn't that excited to jump into a game that, to me, wasn't as interesting as the one I already play. So can we move on now?

Christ, people who want you to play Warmachine are a good second reason to not care about the game so much. Mention one word of the game and it's like you covered yourself in catnip and walked into a cat show: you just can't get them to stop apparently. Sometimes "No" or "I'm just not that interested" means just that. We're not playing hard to get people, we just want to play the games we want to play and don't need to be badgered into it.

And the Montgomery GI Bill is a government provided allotment of money for college tuition costs. The 9/11 GI Bill covers cost of living and books on top of that too but I'm not using that yet because if I use up the 3 years I'm alloted of the first one I'll be given a year of the 9/11 one. And that's calendar years, counted by months I'm in school for even part of the month.

I find that I absolutely have to agree with this. Privateer Press fans are borderline insufferable. In my experience they all, almost without exception, are incredibly vocal about the game and will brook no criticism of Warmachine whatsoever. It was a huge hindrance to me finally starting to play the game, and frankly continues to hinder my enjoyment of the game. In a lot of cases it comes across as insecurity, like you MUST acknowledge that Privateer Press is the greatest thing to happen to tabletop gaming ever.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I find that I absolutely have to agree with this. Privateer Press fans are borderline insufferable. In my experience they all, almost without exception, are incredibly vocal about the game and will brook no criticism of Warmachine whatsoever. It was a huge hindrance to me finally starting to play the game, and frankly continues to hinder my enjoyment of the game. In a lot of cases it comes across as insecurity, like you MUST acknowledge that Privateer Press is the greatest thing to happen to tabletop gaming ever.

From my experiences a lot of them are former 40k/WFB players who act in a manner similar to someone trying to persuade you out of a cult.

Well, you could alter your comments to be less insulting to the regular players of WM/H who don't do that. Or, you know, just be rude and don't care. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of obnoxious players from any game system, be it a sci fi one, a historical, a fantasy, or whatever.

Davor wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I looked at this thread the other day and i have to admit i really agree with you. I don't hate gw, not that i love them either but they aren't horrible all the time.

Then i faced my tau friend who as usual sits in the corner of the map behind an aegis defense line, going to ground and pulling marker lights as needed for 5 turns.

I'm sorry but my nids really have very little to defend themselves against this. Assaulting gets overwatched by the entire army, my range isn't enough to out shoot him and while mawlocs are great for this situation they like to scatter off the board from time to time.

After games like these all i can think is feth you gw. My codex just came out and they didn't give my army a way to deal with the type of ranged firepower most armies are bringing these days.

Okay, end of my rant

So instead of your friend being a douche, you blame GW? Then again, you reserve the right not to play your friend until he changes his play style.

Yes I agree GW makes unbalanced rules and codices, but GW DOESN'T force people into making lists that they "have to win with plastic toy soldiers". How is it's GW fault when people are Richards?

So his friend is the problem because he uses a strategy that takes advantage of his forces strength and his opponents weakness?

 motyak wrote:
Well, you could alter your comments to be less insulting to the regular players of WM/H who don't do that. Or, you know, just be rude and don't care.

And if I ever meet enough of them that aren't like that, I'll happily adjust any future comments about Privateer Press fans.

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:


So his friend is the problem because he uses a strategy that takes advantage of his forces strength and his opponents weakness?

Or maybe he's just using models he likes with a force that appeals to his tastes and play style.

Either way, judging someone or labeling them based on the list they play without any additional information is patently absurd. For all we know, he could be the sweetest, kindest, most easy-going gamer in the world who just happens to play a strong Tau list because its what he enjoys. He could, alternatively, be a giant dick holster, but I don't think a 40k army list is any real grounds for judging someone's personality.

 motyak wrote:
Well, you could alter your comments to be less insulting to the regular players of WM/H who don't do that. Or, you know, just be rude and don't care.

If anyone feels insulted by my comment they might be in the group of people I'm specifically describing: former 40k players who moved onto a new game and are trying to force that new game onto current 40k players, that or they're reading too far into what I said and are taking it as a personal insult regardless.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:


So his friend is the problem because he uses a strategy that takes advantage of his forces strength and his opponents weakness?

Or maybe he's just using models he likes with a force that appeals to his tastes and play style.

Either way, judging someone or labeling them based on the list they play without any additional information is patently absurd. For all we know, he could be the sweetest, kindest, most easy-going gamer in the world who just happens to play a strong Tau list because its what he enjoys. He could, alternatively, be a giant dick holster, but I don't think a 40k army list is any real grounds for judging someone's personality.

You're right about that,

but even if he is a jerk, a well balanced game would mean he still has a good chance of losing to an equally skilled player regardless of army

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Well, you could alter your comments to be less insulting to the regular players of WM/H who don't do that. Or, you know, just be rude and don't care.

If anyone feels insulted by my comment they might be in the group of people I'm specifically describing: former 40k players who moved onto a new game and are trying to force that new game onto current 40k players, that or they're reading too far into what I said and are taking it as a personal insult regardless.

It was directed at the other bloke, who said that PP fans are insecure, insufferable, unable to take any criticism of the game, etc. What you said wasn't too bad, you don't like being pressured into a game, that's perfectly normal. There is nothing stopping someone liking both PP and some GW games.

I only responded about it because you said "comments" (as in plural) when he only made one post about it so I felt like I was being thrown into the spotlight too.

Or maybe PP fans just love their game.
I think GW fans just don't know what it's like to play a game they actually like.

(I'm playing devil's advocate, I just think it's ignorant to label a whole fan base like that. I know plenty of PP fans that are great people.)