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 Swastakowey wrote:

Only time will tell, but if GW dies, and 40k dies with it, I will take my wife to (hungary sorry, interesting...) and hunt you down to tell you I was right. If you are correct, you have permission to do the same but it will be unlikely I assure you.

Uhm... But what if 40k dies but GW lives on (as it now stands, this is an increasingly plausible scenario IMHO)? Should we meet on neutral ground (my vote is for Crimea ) and do a gentlemen's duel with pistols and everything?

Sounds like a plan. However if I am elderly by that time I demand an walk frame mounted weapon for duel purposes.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Uhm... But what if 40k dies but GW lives on (as it now stands, this is an increasingly plausible scenario IMHO)?

Huh? I'm pretty sure that if it gets to the point where 40K dies, GW would defininetely not be any shape to go on.

 Troike wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Uhm... But what if 40k dies but GW lives on (as it now stands, this is an increasingly plausible scenario IMHO)?

Huh? I'm pretty sure that if it gets to the point where 40K dies, GW would defininetely not be any shape to go on.

Hence why i agreed to duel.

My guess for why the more than usual hate is that GW started sponsoring tournaments and really encouraging the idea that 40k is a strategy game even though it blatantly isn't.

Then those people started complaining when 6th ed came out and made a lot of people realise just how blatantly 40k isn't a strategy game, and then all their stuff they've done over the last several months has REALLY ground it in that 40k isn't a strategy game.

But some of those people are still desperately clinging on, and believe that by self-righteous whining that 40k will suddenly be exactly what they want, and it will introduce a new golden era of blissful gaming ecstasy if only Evil Incarnate would just listen to them.

They're slowly getting shaken out, but some are more stubborn than others. Their nerdrage swan songs will slowly die down back to their normal levels. It will never really go away, though, so long as people approach the game desiring it to be something that it isn't.

Hate the management, respect the game.

Without trying to sound too harsh, management makes specious choices in the best of times.

* The fact they don't consider the rules an essential part of their brand every bit as important as the models speaks for itself.

* Their business model is built around hooking kids when they are young and letting them walk away when they learn the value of money.

* They handle partnerships and licensing in an adversarial way.

* They treat their employees like spies.

To their credit, it takes effort to build a company that size. It just seems like they put so much effort into keeping it that way. The moat and wall described in their annual reports stinks of the immaturity that characterizes the highest levels of management.

-Well if you don't like it, don't play that list-
The thing about that is, as what we dont like becomes the norm, we are no longer given the option to pick and chose what lists we do and dont play against. Take fliers for example, when they first came out, people had lists made where fliers were not a part of them at all and they had been playing those lists. So when they bring fliers, you could ask them not use them, and it would be fine, because they had their old army ready. But now everyone has fliers in their lists, and it is only on the rare occasion that somebody actually brought enough of their army to make the changes. So once something has been made official, people start making their army using it, and don't bring the models they dont plan on using, and devote some of their other models to countering these new things. It becomes so hard to pick and chose when everyone is using them and building their lists with them in mind.

-Can we give GW a break??... they're trying. So please, back off.-
Really? Reaaaaally? You act like we are hurting their feelings. Like we aren't paying them millions of dollars. Like they aren't shoving out new rules to just make money on codex, models, and dataslates. They are a company, and they are made to make money, and they dont mind screwing their loyal fans by half-assing so many of their new rules.

-If you REALLY cannot get on... don't play until you get a new rules set you can live with.-
Thing is they arnt going to take out what they put in, not soon, and not when people spend $150 for a single model for the rules they just tossed out. Besides, I've payed thousands of dollars into GW, I expect them to respect their customers, something in my opinion, they are not doing.

-Not everything is screwed up. 40k is supposed to be fun, so have fun!-
Not everything? I would say hardly anything is screwed up. Most of it is great and I think people just need time to digest everything. However I do feel kinda pissed about how all these things have been thrown out, especially the way they are doing the dataslates, $5 for a pdf file with a page of rules is a ripoff and an insult to customers. If they would have done all of this in a way that was a lot cleaner, it would have been great, and I am guessing the hate wouldnt be anywhere close to the current level.

 Troike wrote:
I do worry sometimes what all of the negativity on sites like this could be doing to the hobby as a whole. New players might get caught up in it all and have their enjoyment of the game impeded. There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of GW, but sometimes I think it goes a bit far, and things get viewed an overly negative mindset. .

I couldn't agree with this more.

I have played 40k since 1994. GW is a bunch of financial Bullies that shoot themselves in the foot. From Raising their prices to shutting down retailers. Stores can't even sell their product online that uses shopping cart. Games Workshop is making this game almost unaffordable to its fan base and unprofitable to it retailers.

Rules are rules. I'm glad they changed, and the majority of people crying are probably CSM, or SM players that a reaching out for that Rule Nipple that made marines the dominating force for almost 2 decades.

I've been seriously involved with 4 companies that were retailers for 40k. I was part one of the major pioneering teams for bits off the sprue industry. These companies were moving MASSIVE amounts of product out their doors everyday. The company I worked for would put orders totaling well in the thousands every week, not to mention what we sold online. GW is trying to corner the market for online sales and specific units. Now, even retailers can not order specific units to sell in their stores.

"Want a Necron Monolith? have to go to GW. You want a Tau Commander, you will have to go to GW. I am a retailer that can't sell retail, I'm sorry, but after you spend your money at the GW's store/Online site, you can come play it on my tables, using my terrain, in my store, for free. Have A Great Day!"

Now, stock is stagnant, the mark up is out of control, and 40k just is not that profitable anymore. Thank the gamer Gods for MTG, the main source keeping our local stores open.

After years of dealing with Games Workshop, I've come to one conclusion; they don't care about their customers or its retailers.

Pretty crappy business practices from company that sells plastic for outrageous prices.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying.

No, and this is the heart of the problem: GW isn't trying. Their entire company attitude is summed up accurately by "we don't give a anymore". They don't bother investing the effort to write better rules, they don't bother testing anything adequately, they don't bother with silly things like marketing or community building, and they don't see a problem with any of it. And then when anyone complains they fall back on "we're a model company, not a game company" and "forge the narrative" as excuses for why their laziness and incompetence is something to be proud of. Don't make excuses for that kind of behavior.

Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k. So please, back off.

No, without GW someone else buys the IP and it's almost guaranteed that they'd do a better job with it.

pm713 wrote:

 Troike wrote:
I do worry sometimes what all of the negativity on sites like this could be doing to the hobby as a whole. New players might get caught up in it all and have their enjoyment of the game impeded. There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of GW, but sometimes I think it goes a bit far, and things get viewed an overly negative mindset. .

I couldn't agree with this more.

Spot on right there. Sadly new players see the web and see the malcontents barking the loudest. They make the game out to be miserable and not worth the money. What's sad is that in real life. The malcontents are a small minority. They may give up before ever playing. Hell GW can't even have a internet presence because they get blasted for so much. Yet it is the minority of gamers doing this. Its a great game and I think their is alot of truth that we lose new gamers because they don't see a positive internet gaming community generally. Go to BOLs or Faiet 212 and read the comments its like a troll war there. Dakka is hardly better.
Lastly before anyone blasts me about using the word malcontent please read the definition. It is not an insult rather a description

http://m.dictionary.com/definition/malcontents

... if GW needs to file for bankruptcy, or close its doors, its IPs will be placed on the block for sale to the highest bidder. That's how corporate bankruptcy works. They don't go "welp, guess we gotta shut 'er down and roll on to the house!", shut the lights off and call it done.

There's creditors to pay, payroll to cover, contracts to buy out and all that sort of thing. In order to pay its bills, the company is forced to liquidate its assets (including the Intellectual Properties) to whoever has the highest bid.

I guarantee you that the 40K and Warhammer Fantasy titles will sell, and both titles will continue without GW. Despite what many people think, the company isn't *that* big. According to their half-yearly report released 16 January 2014, the company appears to make about 15 million pounds a year, before taxes. That's a decent income, but it's not "zomg massive monehs!!" when it comes down to businesses.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Ok, I'm the first to admit that there are things about 40k I don't like (IK, LotD as a supplement etc). But when I look at all the hate on here, all I think to myself is;
-Well if you don't like it, don't play that list e.g. If there's a Taudar monster player and you think it's spammy, don't play it if you can (this is particularly easy with the expansions)
-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying. Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k. So please, back off.
-If you REALLY cannot get on with the game at all, take a break. Keep up with the hobby, expand your forces maybe, but don't play until you get a new rules set you can live with.
-Not everything is screwed up. 40k is supposed to be fun, so have fun! Play to the fluff, make custom games, whatever. Just enjoy the game, or at least the aspects you love.

Look up cycle of abuse and battered house wife syndrome, I think you'll find your picture there.

If its such horrible cycle and you are aware of it, then try to break the cycle instead of going along with it. You will feel better afterwards. Just like a victim in the situation you mentioned will feel much better when they break their cycle.

But I still dont see how GW is at fault for how people act.

 Troike wrote:
I do worry sometimes what all of the negativity on sites like this could be doing to the hobby as a whole. New players might get caught up in it all and have their enjoyment of the game impeded. There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of GW, but sometimes I think it goes a bit far, and things get viewed an overly negative mindset. .

Yeah, new players might find out before wasting thousands of dollars what GW is like, they might find out that there are a ton of alternatives in the table top gaming scene. They might discover that other companies make good rules and good models at a fraction of the price and often of higher quality.

What a terrible world that would be!

/sarcasm

But seriously, I don't think it's bad for the hobby to point out the negatives of GW and 40k given GW and 40k are not the entirety of the hobby. How many people start 40k and become disenchanted in a matter of months? Wargaming is a huge investment of time and money, most the people who are complaining are people who have already spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours on 40k and are either simply wanting something better and/or are disappointed by their investment.

 Psienesis wrote:
... if GW needs to file for bankruptcy, or close its doors, its IPs will be placed on the block for sale to the highest bidder. That's how corporate bankruptcy works. They don't go "welp, guess we gotta shut 'er down and roll on to the house!", shut the lights off and call it done.

There's creditors to pay, payroll to cover, contracts to buy out and all that sort of thing. In order to pay its bills, the company is forced to liquidate its assets (including the Intellectual Properties) to whoever has the highest bid.

I guarantee you that the 40K and Warhammer Fantasy titles will sell, and both titles will continue without GW. Despite what many people think, the company isn't *that* big. According to their half-yearly report released 16 January 2014, the company appears to make about 15 million pounds a year, before taxes. That's a decent income, but it's not "zomg massive monehs!!" when it comes down to businesses.

This^^ GW is a small player in the game market, every thing they do from C&D letter to sub-par rule book to paid for e-pamphlet is to keep that very small piece of the pie they have.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But seriously, I don't think it's bad for the hobby to point out the negatives of GW and 40k given GW and 40k are not the entirety of the hobby. How many people start 40k and become disenchanted in a matter of months? Wargaming is a huge investment of time and money, most the people who are complaining are people who have already spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours on 40k and are either simply wanting something better and/or are disappointed by their investment.

Of course not. As I said, there are valid criticisms to be made. What I'm seeing as a potential problem is the negativity becoming more the near-enough the only outlook, to the point where things can be made to seem worse than they are. This is why that Digital Editions Facebook page was so nice to see, as it was somewhere that one could see a more positive side to it all.

Also, to clarify, I'm referring to 40K specifically in this, rather than wargaming in general. The idea that people might be put off of 40K specifically when they might otherwise enjoy it.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Ok, I'm the first to admit that there are things about 40k I don't like (IK, LotD as a supplement etc). But when I look at all the hate on here, all I think to myself is;
-Well if you don't like it, don't play that list e.g. If there's a Taudar monster player and you think it's spammy, don't play it if you can (this is particularly easy with the expansions)
-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying. Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k. So please, back off.
-If you REALLY cannot get on with the game at all, take a break. Keep up with the hobby, expand your forces maybe, but don't play until you get a new rules set you can live with.
-Not everything is screwed up. 40k is supposed to be fun, so have fun! Play to the fluff, make custom games, whatever. Just enjoy the game, or at least the aspects you love.

- I play mostly pickup games or small tournament, I do not usually get to be picky and choose.
- GW has not released a single new model for my army for ten years. There was zero new release since I started the game. Models regularly become unavailable anymore, and every new version of the codex has removed units. One of them was split between two white dwarf articles, none of which feature the army on the cover, and the second one was digital only, with no translation. How is that trying ? Well then, I guess I must be somehow trying to give them a break, by constantly moaning about them.
- Very bad idea. I say switch to another game system. Personally, trollbloods for Warmachine/Horde.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Ok, I'm the first to admit that there are things about 40k I don't like (IK, LotD as a supplement etc). But when I look at all the hate on here, all I think to myself is;
-Well if you don't like it, don't play that list e.g. If there's a Taudar monster player and you think it's spammy, don't play it if you can (this is particularly easy with the expansions)
-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying. Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k. So please, back off.
-If you REALLY cannot get on with the game at all, take a break. Keep up with the hobby, expand your forces maybe, but don't play until you get a new rules set you can live with.
-Not everything is screwed up. 40k is supposed to be fun, so have fun! Play to the fluff, make custom games, whatever. Just enjoy the game, or at least the aspects you love.

1. We shouldn't have to handicap ourselves. If GW actually did their jobs well Taudar wouldn't be the taboo faction that they are. People wouldn't have to refuse games to people just because they brought their favorite models. Consider the other side of the board. What if a person really likes Riptides and wants to bring a lot of them? Why should they be shunned for what they enjoy?

2. Why shouldn't we criticize a company for it's failings? Any good company listens to it's consumers and knows when they are unhappy. Not only are Games Workshop ignoring it's customers but they are acting as if their horrible practices are for our own good. Why should we give the company that screws over LFGS, sues it's fans and charges it's Australian players unfairly a break? They are dicks and should be regarded as such.
3. I really like 40k's story, models and the idea of it's gameplay. I want to see it improved. I don't hate it out of spite. I hate it out of love.
4. The game is screwed up and, ultimately, this is a wargaming we are playing. Not a RPG.

 lobbywatson wrote:
They may give up before ever playing.

And your point is? I don't see why we should pretend that GW is a well-run company with competent employees just so that GW doesn't lose new customers. If they don't want to give up before every playing then how about they try making products that don't suck?

Hell GW can't even have a internet presence because they get blasted for so much.

No, GW can't have an internet presence because they think it's still 1990, the internet doesn't exist, and everyone's only source of information is what their local GW store employee tells them. Even companies that get a lot more hate than GW have an internet presence, because they understand that it's 2014 and an internet presence is an important marketing element.

Its a great game

Best joke I've heard all week. Please, tell me exactly how 40k is a great game? And please answer based on the game, not the background fiction or the modeling/painting hobby.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying.

No, and this is the heart of the problem: GW isn't trying. Their entire company attitude is summed up accurately by "we don't give a anymore". They don't bother investing the effort to write better rules, they don't bother testing anything adequately, they don't bother with silly things like marketing or community building, and they don't see a problem with any of it. And then when anyone complains they fall back on "we're a model company, not a game company" and "forge the narrative" as excuses for why their laziness and incompetence is something to be proud of. Don't make excuses for that kind of behavior.

Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k. So please, back off.

No, without GW someone else buys the IP and it's almost guaranteed that they'd do a better job with it.

What Peregrine said^

GW doesn't deserve a pass for doing a shoddy job.

And no, 40k is not a good game - you can have some good games playing it but IMO it is a game with lots of wasted potential and could be a great game if effort was put into trying to make it so. GW doesn't have any interest in doing this. But GW does have an interest in gouging more and more money out of their customers for their subpar products (rules-game, not referring to models here). I would not not shed a tear if GW ever collapsed because then there would be a chance that the IP would get bought up and 40K could be re-made into a great game.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Ranting about all the ranting people are doing is hypocritical.

So it's only okay to complain as long as its aimed at GW then?

No, but you don't see anyone making a thread complaining about people for *not* venting.

Peregrine is blunt, sometimes a tad too blunt perhaps, but he is not wrong.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Peregrine is blunt, sometimes a tad too blunt perhaps, but he is not wrong.

Arguably. I dont think anybody can factually say something isnt fun and be right. What he should say is he doesnt like the game and he doesnt think so on. Instead of talking like he speaks for the masses. Which he very clearly does not.

 lobbywatson wrote:
You know why its great because I always see different stuff.

Lol, no. You see different stuff in spite of it being a bad game. Game balance is laughably bad, so the only reason you see any interesting diversity is that the players in your area have collectively said "GW's version of this game sucks, let's fix it ourselves" and made a conscious effort to avoid playing good lists.

Variety, variety, variety.

No. First of all, you don't actually have much variety. When the FOC and army identity are replaced by lots of formations/expansions/etc you end up with a bunch of very similar armies with only slight variations. Tau with Eldar allies, Eldar with Tau allies. IG with a Warhound titan and inquisitor, space marines with a Warhound titan and inquisitor. If you want real variety you need to get rid of GW's idiotic new release policies and go back to a game where each army has a coherent identity with its own strengths and weaknesses, and you can't just take the best units from 3-4 other armies to compensate for those weaknesses. Second, variety is one of the game's biggest problems right now: new releases are just thrown out without any concern for quality or balance, just so that GW can sell a few more books to the last customers gullible enough to buy them.

With the addition of dataslates the game will be more balanced then it has ever been because it will become a crap shoot. I love it.

This is a joke, right? Did you seriously just claim that having the game be random and unpredictable because there's too much stuff to keep track of is good for balance?


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 Swastakowey wrote:
Arguably. I dont think anybody can factually say something isnt fun and be right. What he should say is he doesnt like the game and he doesnt think so on. Instead of talking like he speaks for the masses. Which he very clearly does not.

I didn't say the game isn't fun, I said it's a bad game. You can have fun playing a bad game, but that doesn't make the rules any less awful. GW's design decisions with 40k are as close to objectively wrong as you can get in the game design industry.

40K is extremely reliant on good company to have fun. Good company is all-but mandatory for this kind of games anyway, but it really is the crutch for 40K gaming.

True, but bad rules are also subjective. I think the rules are amazing for variety and friendly play. So you cant say a movie is bad and be correct. Because i am very certain someone out there will love that movie. Same with 40k. You can say its bad all you want but at the end of the day its 100% opinion.

Also number 1 rule seems to be something you resort to a lot. Maybe you need to have a think about how you come across if its becoming an issue for you.

 Swastakowey wrote:
True, but bad rules are also subjective. I think the rules are amazing for variety and friendly play.

On that, I am actually with Peregrine. We in my meta tend to not really think about how good the units we pick are, we do not play übercompetetively etc. Even then, we notice that this game has issues. We have written down a massive word document with fixes, but it became too clunky and eventually we just gave up.

 Swastakowey wrote:
True, but bad rules are also subjective. I think the rules are amazing for variety and friendly play. So you cant say a movie is bad and be correct. Because i am very certain someone out there will love that movie. Same with 40k. You can say its bad all you want but at the end of the day its 100% opinion.

Also number 1 rule seems to be something you resort to a lot. Maybe you need to have a think about how you come across if its becoming an issue for you.

No, the rules are objectively bad.

You can love or hate a movie, but rules that don't function when called on to interact with each other aren't a matter of opinion, doubly so when those issues are left unaddressed for years at a time.