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Icculus, here is how I see it.

Haywire is done instead of Armour Penetration.
Holo-fields occurs before Armour Penetration.

Therefore in order to get to Armour Penetration (which gets swapped for Haywire) you must pass through Holo-fields.

The way i see it:

Holo-field states it happens before armour pen steps.
Now, the step previous to that is rolling to hit.

Haywire takes place between the 2.

You still need to hit with haywire like any normal weapon, which is what the field is triggered by.

I dont see why people think the pen roll is the trigger as this happens after both events have taken place.
So the way i see it is that the shields work as normal against haywire.
Just because it swaps out the pen table for its own, does not mean it skips the previous step.

I see how you guys are seeing it. you are laying it out on a timeline with an "armor penetration phase." But the way the rule is worded does not set it up to follow timelines, It gives specific triggers. "armor penetration rolls" and "destroyer weapon rolls" are the only triggers. So you make the holo-field before making those rolls.

So if the haywire weapon hits, I move on to the damage results phase. I see that instead of rolling armor penetration, I roll haywire effects. The holo-field says to only roll before armor penetration rolls and destroyer weapons.

That being said, I see how this could be RaI to mean that holo-field works for haywire, and I could easily see a FAQ that comes out adding haywire to the explicitly listed tables. I'm sure they forgot about haywire when they wrote it. But that gets in to speculation, and to play RaW we can't make any speculation. So we read the rule as is, and it does not say anything about haywire. they took the time to include destroyer weapons though, so that's clear.

The only reason they added Destroyer is to make it usable against D weapons, since normally, nothing can save you from D weapons.

A trigger cannot occur after the event as the trigger could no longer work (would have missed it)

To do this you would have to make the rolls, move forward a step to trigger the field, then go back again and re-roll.
You have moved on at this point and missed it, so a trigger after the event does not work.

Everything in 40k runs through a timeline system.
If it didnt, then alot of rules would fall flat.

 Jackal wrote:
A trigger cannot occur after the event as the trigger could no longer work (would have missed it)

A trigger can happen after the event itself. In fact, that's what the word "Before" does.

"Before being punched in the face, Bob ducks."
If we assume that a punch in the face is the same as any sort of attack, then he would duck after we determined he was going to be hit. So if the attack is a kick to the groin, is bob still going to duck? Because we can't have a trigger occur after the event right? So this would mean bob ducks before getting kicked in the groin. not very effective now is it. The only time bob would duck, would be
before he is punched in the face.

now swap bob with the guardian, the punch with an armor penetration roll, the kick with a haywire attack, and ducking with the holo-field.

edit: kind of a silly example, I know. maybe we should change it to "before being punched in the face, bob dodges." but he only dodges before a punch comes at him because that's all he is looking for. the statement doesnt cover what to do in case of a kick to the groin.

What does that Harbinger of the Storm rule say? I didn't catch that.
Does that have to roll to hit at all vs the Holo-fielded model?

If it doesn't roll to hit there would be no successful hits to be re-rolled, or if it hits automatically same deal.

If it does roll to Hit, then I think super strict RAW the Haywire hits would all get through the Holo-fields because of the limiting wordage of the Holo-field rule.

However, RAI, I would say the Haywire hits would need to be rerolled as they are vehicle damage effects resulting from hits, and to hit the Eldar Titan whatever is hitting still struggles with the whispy holographic false images.

viewfinder wrote:
that's how I see it. no Armor Pen roll means no Holo-Field trigger.

plus, I could see it working in fluff, too. a crackling, disruptive energy field would probably screw up a holo-field.

Just thought I would point this out that (fluff-wise) this is wrong. Holo-Fields are not just force fields like void shields, but actually make it seems like you are in a different place than you actually are.

 Icculus wrote:


Now this is the meat of the problem and is bein discussed in another thread via tank-hunters and haywire. So is haywire a form of armor penetration or is it it's own rule. I'm under the impression that haywire is completely separate from armor penetration. Because the rule says instead of rolling armor penetration.

You left out a key word on the end of "Instead of rolling on armour penetration". And that word was "normally". You're still rolling for armour penetration, you're just not doing it normally.

viewfinder wrote:
that's how I see it. no Armor Pen roll means no Holo-Field trigger.

plus, I could see it working in fluff, too. a crackling, disruptive energy field would probably screw up a holo-field.

I can't actually see it in the fluff. A holo-field is basically like a huge image projector to cloak or distort the image of the equipped entity so that it becomes invisible or difficult to discern its precise location. The saving throw, like a jink cover save, is intended to simulate the unit being hard to hit. Not a shield blocking the attack.

RAW, like I mentioned earlier, the haywire rule uses the term "normally" which implies that you're still rolling for armor penetration; just not in the normal manner. Thus I don't agree with some of the interpretation in this thread from a RAW standpoint but also from a HYWPI standpoint as well. So, to me, it wouldn't matter if the rule didn't include "normally" in it as I would still view it as a gross oversight and RAW shenanigans.

I mean, there are people who believe that because grav weapons don't use the vehicle damage chart that they're not permitted to use their invuln saves or cover saves. Consider that for a second; these are defences that are worded to make clear that they can survive a volley from a D weapon but a lowly cryptek can pop out with his staff and pierce his shields and defences with ease. Why wouldn't the necrons just strap these weapons en masse to their super-heavies if that was the case?

It doesn't make sense from a narrative point of view, I don't believe it makes sense from a RAW point of view and even if you could interpret it to work this way RAW, I'd still not play it that way without an explicit wording in the rules or FAQ telling me that's how the weapon works.

The Cryptek has the Voltic Staff a Assault 4 haywire weapon. to answer a question from above.

sonicaucie wrote:

viewfinder wrote:
that's how I see it. no Armor Pen roll means no Holo-Field trigger.

plus, I could see it working in fluff, too. a crackling, disruptive energy field would probably screw up a holo-field.

I mean, there are people who believe that because grav weapons don't use the vehicle damage chart that they're not permitted to use their invuln saves or cover saves. Consider that for a second; these are defences that are worded to make clear that they can survive a volley from a D weapon but a lowly cryptek can pop out with his staff and pierce his shields and defences with ease. Why wouldn't the necrons just strap these weapons en masse to their super-heavies if that was the case?

They wouldnt bring them en masse because the Haywire attack does almost nothing to infantry or monstrous creatures. Think of it as an overcharged electrical attack. Sure it can shock infantry, but it really screws with vehicles and machines, kind of like an EMP. So the attack is a distorted energy field, that would mess with whatever holo-field was being projected. Its like a Magnetic Field attack.

And in response to the normally thing, that just means that you are doing something different than you normally would. So, normally you roll on the armor penetration table, instead you roll on the haywire effects table.

It is an EMP in fact. That's how it is described in the fluff.

 Icculus wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:

viewfinder wrote:
that's how I see it. no Armor Pen roll means no Holo-Field trigger.

plus, I could see it working in fluff, too. a crackling, disruptive energy field would probably screw up a holo-field.

I mean, there are people who believe that because grav weapons don't use the vehicle damage chart that they're not permitted to use their invuln saves or cover saves. Consider that for a second; these are defences that are worded to make clear that they can survive a volley from a D weapon but a lowly cryptek can pop out with his staff and pierce his shields and defences with ease. Why wouldn't the necrons just strap these weapons en masse to their super-heavies if that was the case?

They wouldnt bring them en masse because the Haywire attack does almost nothing to infantry or monstrous creatures. Think of it as an overcharged electrical attack. Sure it can shock infantry, but it really screws with vehicles and machines, kind of like an EMP. So the attack is a distorted energy field, that would mess with whatever holo-field was being projected. Its like a Magnetic Field attack.

And in response to the normally thing, that just means that you are doing something different than you normally would. So, normally you roll on the armor penetration table, instead you roll on the haywire effects table.

Thats the point though. Normally you would do armor penetration, INSTEAD roll on the hay wire chart. You are not given permission to skip the normal sequence of (1) roll to hit, (2) roll for holofields, then (3) roll armor penetration/haywire effects.

Yikes, I didn't realize some people would ignore order of operations so much just to get an advantage.

As has been clearly said, you never get to the point of Armor Penetration if a successful Holofield save is made, so the Haywire rule never comes into play.