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I don't understand why they are separate factions. Can someone fill me in? Sorry I haven't read much of the books and I know little lore.

To the extent they work together in the fluff, it is usually by some temporary pact. Daemons are as lokely to attack Chaos Marines as aid them.

^ Not true. They are more likely to work together than not. Daemons mostly fight themselves in the Warp as part of the 'great game' but outside of it, or in the presence of the CSM in the Eye of Terror, they usually don't.

They were the same faction until GW saw how lucrative several separate SM codicies had already been, and split em into 2 factions.

Personally I miss the days when they were one codex. Daemons felt way less cartoony when they were these rare packs of monsters fighting alongside the traitor legions. The made Chaos really stand out from regular Space Marines and made up for the lack of options they get compared to the loyalists.

Making them their own faction meant having to throw together terrible fluff for these immortal beings that are supposed to be the ultimate evil.

Daemonic incursions are supposed to be rare without external help. The thing I like before was that they were these eternal monsters that could be summoned by corrupted men. However by giving them their own faction, took away the jeopardy in a game. Who cares if the daemons lose, they'll don't really die, they'll all reform in the warp again. When they were simply part of a Chaos Lord's plan of attack, they felt like they actually mattered. As a stand alone they are my least favourite faction. Not least because it really irks me to play mixed god armies when the gods supposedly hate each other, but it's almost the only way to play with any variety in you options. When they were one book you could do a Khorne warband with a mix troops from both armies and still have interesting combinations.

The reason they are two separate books is because that way daemons can be allied to more than just CSM's.

Except in 2nd you had daemons in the same army as CSM and could ally with other destruction factions just fine.

 ThatEdGuy wrote:
The reason they are two separate books is because that way daemons can be allied to more than just CSM's.

That would make more sense if the Codex wasn't split in 4th and the allies rule was introduced in 6th edition.
Few other races (in the most extreme cases DE) would ally to Daemons anyway.

Re-introduced**

2e had allies.

The point still stands; at the time of the split GW was still 6 or 7 years away from using that mechanic so I doubt it factored in to the change.

Well, also remember Chaos Space Marines are the true Champions of Chaos and prizes of the Gods. They feel they are superior to daemons and everyone else in the galaxy. Most CSM Lords are still hesitant to make deals with Daemons. I mean, a traitor trusting a daemon? Hell, even their Daemon Weapons rebel.

Why are the Imperial Guard and SM not fighting together?
I don't understand why they are separate factions. They should totally be in a single Codex. With the Sisters of Battle and the Adeptus Mechanicus and Arbites and the Inquisition.

And what about putting Tau and Tyranids in the same Codex? They are both xenos. And Necrons! And Orks! And both Eldar!

This way we would get only three Codexes/Codices: Xenos, Empire and Chaos.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
^ Not true. They are more likely to work together than not. Daemons mostly fight themselves in the Warp as part of the 'great game' but outside of it, or in the presence of the CSM in the Eye of Terror, they usually don't.

Chaos is not a unified force. The Legions can work together, but it is rare. If they meet inside or outside the eye, they should tend to attack each other, unless there is a bigger enemy near.

After entering the Eye, the Legions started fighting each other. It is called the Legion Wars: the Sons of Horus were destroyed, the World Eaters disbanded in small groups after a brutal defeat in Skallathrax, Fabius cloned Horus, and so much stuff. They are also called the Slave Wars, because it all started when the Emperor´s Children, who were almost at full strength after the Siege of Terra, attacked the other legions to get slaves to party with.

I love this part of the background.

If the pre-6th edition fluff, Khorne and Slaanesh (like Nurgle & Tzeentch) hate each other with a passion. In game, they should be Desperate Allies or, even better, Come the Apocalypse. After all, the Great Crusade was an Apocalypsis event for the Chaos Daemons: for the first time since forever they risked destruction. The Codex: Chaos Daemons should be divided in at least 5 parts (or, even better, it should give us generic stats for all kinds of daemons and then select an allegiance as a "chapter trait" equivalent).

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
(...)

Daemonic incursions are supposed to be rare without external help. The thing I like before was that they were these eternal monsters that could be summoned by corrupted men. However by giving them their own faction, took away the jeopardy in a game. Who cares if the daemons lose, they'll don't really die, they'll all reform in the warp again. When they were simply part of a Chaos Lord's plan of attack, they felt like they actually mattered. As a stand alone they are my least favourite faction. Not least because it really irks me to play mixed god armies when the gods supposedly hate each other, but it's almost the only way to play with any variety in you options. When they were one book you could do a Khorne warband with a mix troops from both armies and still have interesting combinations.

This is right too.

I really like Daemons like a faction, but the Codex forces you to choose between a boring army and an unfluffy army.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, also remember Chaos Space Marines are the true Champions of Chaos and prizes of the Gods. They feel they are superior to daemons and everyone else in the galaxy. Most CSM Lords are still hesitant to make deals with Daemons. I mean, a traitor trusting a daemon? Hell, even their Daemon Weapons rebel.

According to the CSM, perhaps. There are many Chaos Champions that are not Astartes and they also feel superior to everyone else.

 da001 wrote:
Why are the Imperial Guard and SM not fighting together?
I don't understand why they are separate factions. They should totally be in a single Codex. With the Sisters of Battle and the Adeptus Mechanicus and Arbites and the Inquisition.

And what about putting Tau and Tyranids in the same Codex? They are both xenos. And Necrons! And Orks! And both Eldar!

This way we would get only three Codexes/Codices: Xenos, Empire and Chaos.
To be fair Daemons didn't have enough variety to justify a codex until they were rehauled. I think in an ideal world we could have had 2 Interchangeable ones, or maybe like a supplement for extra Daemon forces/ a standalone army. I don't think Chaos has ever been as interesting as it was in 3.5. I know the codex had it's flaws but I wish they had worked on it instead of scrapping virtually all choice for 4th

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

To be fair Daemons didn't have enough variety to justify a codex until they were rehauled. I think in an ideal world we could have had 2 Interchangeable ones, or maybe like a supplement for extra Daemon forces/ a standalone army. I don't think Chaos has ever been as interesting as it was in 3.5. I know the codex had it's flaws but I wish they had worked on it instead of scrapping virtually all choice for 4th

It lacks variety indeed. Which is the reason why they should redo / expand the Codex. But I still think they are ok as two different armies. Oh, and I want Lost and the Damned too (beastmen, traitor guard, mutants, heretics...).

I don´t know, perhaps it is true that we will soon get mixed supplements such as "The book of Khorne". There was a rumor about it for a while.

 da001 wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

To be fair Daemons didn't have enough variety to justify a codex until they were rehauled. I think in an ideal world we could have had 2 Interchangeable ones, or maybe like a supplement for extra Daemon forces/ a standalone army. I don't think Chaos has ever been as interesting as it was in 3.5. I know the codex had it's flaws but I wish they had worked on it instead of scrapping virtually all choice for 4th

It lacks variety indeed. Which is the reason why they should redo / expand the Codex. But I still think they are ok as two different armies. Oh, and I want Lost and the Damned too (beastmen, traitor guard, mutants, heretics...).

I don´t know, perhaps it is true that we will soon get mixed supplements such as "The book of Khorne". There was a rumor about it for a while.

The L&D book is basically covered by the Siege of Vraks Forge World books, or by using the IG Codex.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

The L&D book is basically covered by the Siege of Vraks Forge World books, or by using the IG Codex.

About using the IG Codex, that´s like using Codex: SM as C:CSM, or using Codex: Chaos Space Marines instead of Codex: Space Wolves. Try it once and you will see it is not enough.

Siege of Wracks is great... but it is just 15 pages long. No mutants, no marks, no beastmen... and most of it is taken (copy&paste) from the IG book. And it is Traitor Guard. Which is not L&D. Traitor Guard could be easily done by adding some rules for marks and the like to IG.

 da001 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

The L&D book is basically covered by the Siege of Vraks Forge World books, or by using the IG Codex.

About using the IG Codex, that´s like using Codex: SM as C:CSM, or using Codex: Chaos Space Marines instead of Codex: Space Wolves. Try it once and you will see it is not enough.

Siege of Wracks is great... but it is just 15 pages long. No mutants, no marks, no beastmen... and most of it is taken (copy&paste) from the IG book. And it is Traitor Guard. Which is not L&D. Traitor Guard could be easily done by adding some rules for marks and the like to IG.

That's my point. I never understood why marines had to have so many Codices, just call it C:SM and have everything boshed into it, they're all essentially the same. Then splash out on one or two more Xenos armies.
Also, Siege of Vracks is basically what you're asking for, you can model your guys as mutants or beastmen if you want. Also, not sure what you're expecting. It'd be incredibly hard to encompass mutants, beastmen, traitor guardsmen, all four gods and everything in the IG codex into one single army book, and I imagine there would be many a hark of 'dude that's so OP'. You could always use C:IG allied with Siege of Vraks if you really wanted to, and Vraks gives you access to Chaos Space Marines as well which is handy, and the Siege of Vraks book can take stuff like Plague Ogryns (omg no marks), Ogryn Berserkers (pff just undivided) etc.

 da001 wrote:
...

I really like Daemons like a faction, but the Codex forces you to choose between a boring army and an unfluffy army.

I run an all Slaanesh daemon army with traitor guard allies. I'm pretty much 1:1 in terms of win/loss ratio, against players who are largely more experienced than I am. Monogod is definitely workable, and far from boring, but allies are really essential if you want to make it work. Rules and fluffwise I like Daemons (obviously, since I play them), but they really do work better as an allied faction than an independent army. I happen to be happy with the current allies rules because it lets me field the type of LATD army I want to without having to buy the FW book or use house rules. Plus the Siege of Vraks lists were all Nurgle and Khorne. With the current rules, I don't think a LATD army is very necessary, because between the return of Cultists to the Chaos Space Marine army and the allies list making IG allies of convenience with both CSM and Daemons, you can pretty much build any type of LATD army you want with a bit of creativity.

Daemons make for a nice change of pace from the mustache twirling supervillains that are the Chaos Space Marines. Daemons are an evil force of nature that is the darkest parts of your psyche given form. Like everything else, the fluff from the Daemon codex is all in-universe, and I choose to look at it as a set of myths and allegories the worshipers of Chaos tell each other as they interpret the actions of daemonic entities in a "human" way.

 fallinq wrote:

 da001 wrote:
...

I really like Daemons like a faction, but the Codex forces you to choose between a boring army and an unfluffy army.

I run an all Slaanesh daemon army with traitor guard allies. I'm pretty much 1:1 in terms of win/loss ratio, against players who are largely more experienced than I am. Monogod is definitely workable, and far from boring, but allies are really essential if you want to make it work. Rules and fluffwise I like Daemons (obviously, since I play them), but they really do work better as an allied faction than an independent army. I happen to be happy with the current allies rules because it lets me field the type of LATD army I want to without having to buy the FW book or use house rules. Plus the Siege of Vraks lists were all Nurgle and Khorne. With the current rules, I don't think a LATD army is very necessary, because between the return of Cultists to the Chaos Space Marine army and the allies list making IG allies of convenience with both CSM and Daemons, you can pretty much build any type of LATD army you want with a bit of creativity.

I didn´t mean they were weak, I mean they were boring to play. No options. You have one compulsory Troop "choice", one Elite choice, and so on. Daemons are supposed to be chaotic, every single one different to any other. Yet we have only one single way to play them.

To quote myself: "The Codex: Chaos Daemons (...) should give us generic stats for all kinds of daemons and then select an allegiance as a "chapter trait" equivalent). ". So you have a basic, say, Horror entry. Once you have finished your army, you stay undivided or pick a mark, giving a "chapter trait" equivalent to your army so they have an unifying theme. With a few changes in the rules section, you could get four different Troop choices: Horrors, Warriors (Bloodletters equivalent), Daemonettes and Bearers. All of them touched by Slaanesh. Fun for all.

Of course, I know this is never gonna happen. It would multiply the entire Daemon range of models by four.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
(...)
Also, Siege of Vracks is basically what you're asking for, you can model your guys as mutants or beastmen if you want. Also, not sure what you're expecting.

More than a 15 pages Codex. Sure, it is fine. But there are lots of things out there that could be added...

The OP is talking about joining two different armies into one. Since I like both of them, I would expand them, mostly by adding stuff from previous editions that I liked.

Things I miss from LATD that are not in the Siege of Vraks list:
1) Mutants. I played them (well mostly against them) in Rogue Trader, and they were in the Eye of Terror Codex. I would even accept one of those awful random tables.
2) Beastmen!! All of them! They were in 40k before and I would like to see them back.
3) A way to mark my army, some form of global rule to separate, say, a Tzeentch army from a Khorne army.
4) Since you asked... Chaos Squats. Love the hats. And they (sort of) featured in Space Marine, the book.
5) A generic SM unit & Leader. I am not fond of taking SM with my LATD, but it would be helpful to do a Fallen army
6) Sabathiel, Morghur, Xaphan, Magister equivalents, Charybdia, Teturact...

It'd be incredibly hard to encompass mutants, beastmen, traitor guardsmen, all four gods and everything in the IG codex into one single army book, and I imagine there would be many a hark of 'dude that's so OP'.

Why OP?
Traitor Guard could be a bunch of rules in the IG Codex. And the rest would fit just fine in the standard 104 pages book. The "all four gods" is only a handful of sentences regarding marks.

You could always use C:IG allied with Siege of Vraks if you really wanted to, and Vraks gives you access to Chaos Space Marines as well which is handy, and the Siege of Vraks book can take stuff like Plague Ogryns (omg no marks), Ogryn Berserkers (pff just undivided) etc.

Yes, but we are coming back to "count as".
I could get an imperial soldier and claim that it is a beastman but... it is just not the same.

You see, there is a force far greater and more powerful than all the gods, armies, fleets, and heroes of the forty first millenium combined. A force that even Chaos quails in limitless terror of. A force so mighty that to placate it, the former whole that was Daemonkind and the Chaos Space Marines went their separate ways; and the lost and the damned was smote into ruin and obscurity.

This force you see, is GW's greed.

 Kain wrote:
You see, there is a force far greater and more powerful than all the gods, armies, fleets, and heroes of the forty first millenium combined. A force that even Chaos quails in limitless terror of. A force so mighty that to placate it, the former whole that was Daemonkind and the Chaos Space Marines went their separate ways; and the lost and the damned was smote into ruin and obscurity.

This force you see, is GW's greed.

Exalted. So much.

Oh I couldn't agree more on Lost and the Damned. I mean these are the bulk of the Chaos forces. Chaos Marines are a Millenia old force, a finite resource, The "Legions" of old don't exist, Abaddon and his like have a handul of Traitor marines but billions of corrupted humans, mutants and outcasts fighting for them. Most Imperial guard will never see a Chaos Marine or Daemon but unless on a protracted campaign against Xenos, would almost definitely see service against the mortal followers of Chaos.

What really bugs me is that they don't even need a major release. Give us a pdf codex like SOB and we can can go away and convert our own armies. Using WFB models, Guard, Forgeworld and our own kitbashes and conversions. I would love to do a LATD army, they don't need any big unique models; their vehicles would be guard with spikey bits, there infantry could be made from a myriad of ranges. Just release the codex, a couple of mutation sprues and we have a whole new codex. Even if people just used one or two units to compliment their existing Guard, Chaos Marines or Chaos Daemon armies. Even regular Marines would be a good mix to represent a fallen Chapter. Their vehicles and wargear still reflecting their only recent betrayal, but their mutated human allies giving them the Chaotic look to show their new allegiance.

So many people would get on board with this, it's money for the taking for GW, it would cost virtually nothing to get off the ground but would flesh out the setting so well. Seeing as GW are moving us towards the digital age of fast releases, it seems like their has never been a better time to bring them back.

Oh I couldn't agree more on Lost and the Damned. I mean these are the bulk of the Chaos forces. Chaos Marines are a Millenia old force, a finite resource, The "Legions" of old don't exist, Abaddon and his like have a handul of Traitor marines but billions of corrupted humans, mutants and outcasts fighting for them. Most Imperial guard will never see a Chaos Marine or Daemon but unless on a protracted campaign against Xenos, would almost definitely see service against the mortal followers of Chaos.

Abbadon actually has the largest amount of Traitor Marines in his force so it's kinda a bad thought, not to mention they use gene-seed stolen from pure chapters to make more, many are ressurected in some manner by the gods, others are created as daemonic gifts, the Warsmith Honsou had an..interesting way to make more, Bile is quite willing to make you into that as a price...

But yes, you'd most likely see far more traitors still, just like you'd see far more imperium besides Space Marines...But guess what sells and has several snowflake codex?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
But guess what sells and has several snowflake codex?

Now if only CSMs had several snowflake codexes. Well, I guess they got Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter but that's no where near what the loyalists got, despite how Chaos is supposed to be so infinitely diverse that pondering on it could literally explode your mind.

I think adding cultists was a step in the right direction, as in canon Chaos Marines don't fight in large groups, they mostly drive thousands or millions of cultists forwards and then strategically do work themselves.
If only Aspiring Champions could lead cultists like in DoW... That would actually make a lot of sense.

 herpguy wrote:
I think adding cultists was a step in the right direction, as in canon Chaos Marines don't fight in large groups, they mostly drive thousands or millions of cultists forwards and then strategically do work themselves.
If only Aspiring Champions could lead cultists like in DoW... That would actually make a lot of sense.

Not every group, there's plenty of warbands that think using humans is below them, then you have the vast well trained armies like the Blood Cult that even features Xenos Mercenaries and highly trained specialists.

And then you have the groups that just sacrifice cultists, make daemons, feed them to daemon engines for food and ammo and are basically less slightly armed warrior and more useful squig.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
he "Legions" of old don't exist, Abaddon and his like have a handul of Traitor marines but billions of corrupted humans, mutants and outcasts fighting for them.

Wrong.

The BL supplement says the BL now outnumber the other legions combined. I'd say that's quite a few more traitors than 'a handful', they may even outnumber loyal marines at this point.

they may even outnumber loyal marines at this point.

With Fabius cloning them and more chapter turning to the Corsairs as well as the Iron Warriors stealing all that Gene Seed.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

they may even outnumber loyal marines at this point.

With Fabius cloning them and more chapter turning to the Corsairs as well as the Iron Warriors stealing all that Gene Seed.

Going by the stories they feature in, this seems to have made them suffer tremendously from the conservation of ninjitsu as loyalist marines and gaurdsmen gun them down like well armored mooks in BL book after BL book with increasingly casual ease.

In other stories Talos, Uzas, Mercurtion, Cyrion, and Xarl butcher everything from Eldar, to guard, to tech priest, to ultramarines, to other Night Lords like their sheep.