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I have a 2000pt single force org tournament coming up next month. Usually there is a lot of tau and eldar but now there are two 4- imperial knight players. Normally my white scars can kill Riptides and Wraithknights no problem but I had my ass handed to me by Knights as 1/6 grav hits for a pen they have 50/50 chance to save just didn't cut it. They normally all have melta bombs but that also didn't cut it as between being MSU 5 man squads, and having to live through D attacks + stomps it was no longer efficient.


WS primary
Khan on moondrakkken -150
Command squad 4 melta, apothecary, bikes - 190

Troop -
5 bikes, 2 grav - 135
5 bikes, 2 grav - 135
5 bikes, 2 grav - 135
5 bikes, 2 grav - 135
5 bikes 2 grav - 135


Imperial fists allies
Librarian (psychic shriek) - 65
Command squad, 5 melta drop pod - 185


Troop
5 scouts, camo cloaks, 3 snipers - 68

Heavy
8 devastators 4 lascannons - 192

Inquisitor
Coteaz - 100

Knight Detatchment
Knight Paladin - 375



The basic strategy is have 2 melta pod come down and surround a knight to avoid its shield. Coteaz joins the devs, and 4 twin linked tank hunter lascannons help as well.

25 scouting bikes and a Knight press forward with a volley of ap2 and SD. The concussive rule allows the Knight to assault MCs with impunity. 6 scoring units should be good for obj games as well.

Thoughts? Any other suggestions on how SM can beat Taudar and 4-5 Knight lists with a TAC build?

I am not aware of any rule set in 40k in which the above list would be legal. How exactly does one take two allied detachments? Is this allowed by the rule book? I mean it could just be the way I read it.

Knights and Inquisitors have their own detachment that doesn't count as an ally slot.

Truely? If so I find that baffling. Why do they get to cheat?

To sell models? Your guess is as good as mine but as GW currently stands the list is legal. This doesn't even use dataslates which add on further detachments.

Well then... As to the lists viability, I doubt you will have any issue with knights, but holding objectives looks like it will prove very difficult for you.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Truely? If so I find that baffling. Why do they get to cheat?

Didn't you know??? This is Tablehammer-Who-Needs-an-FOC 40K!

For your amusement a legal list might look something like this nowadays:

PRIMARY: Ultramarines

Tigurius
2x 5 man scouts
Stormraven

ALLIED: Tau Empire

Buffmander
10x Kroot
Riptide
3x Broadsides

INQUISITION DETACHMENT:

Coteaz
3x Henchmen

KNIGHT DETACHMENT:

Knight Paladin

LORD OF WAR:

Warhound Titan

FORTIFICATION:

Aquila Strongpoint

And that's not even double FOC. . .

He has six troop choices, he should have no problem with objectives.

Your original list should be fine, you just can't be aggressive with the bikes against the knights. You need to use the cover and line-or-sight blocking terrain to hide until turn 5 and then get on the objectives. The problem with the Knights is, they don't deny objectives... so they may put 4 knights on 4 objectives, but if you turbo boost a bike squad onto each of them the last turn, you will end with 4 and he with 0.

Try for bottom of turn, and just try to hide your MSU bikes until that last turn. Also, I don't think it's worth it to throw away multiple pods of units turn 1 to try and surround a knight... (Sternguard for instance) even if you do take out 1 at the start, you're gonna give up almost the same or double the points when they get stomped next turn...

I think the best way to kill them is long-range boosted devs or air units. I like Coteaz on lascannon devs for some prescience. Also, a Knight Errant would better suit you, as they provide pretty good anti-Knight weaponry too. Perhaps put khan's command squad on bikes with melta, try dropping the other command squad in pod for a dev squad?

Just some thoughts...

Thanks man, really solid advice. The knight player at the 1500 FOB qualifier that stomped me tabled everyone else and hardly took damage. I was able to win the secondary (objectives) while he won the primary (kill points) using the exact tactics you described.

I normally run two command squad on bikes w/ 4 grav and apothecary woth Khan and a Captain w/ powerfist but they just performed so poorly against knights I wanted to try the melta, but switching from grav to melta and staying on bike w can be just as good I agree.

I have a huge Tau army I could ally with but I am trying to beat the top lists using marines. Should I even include the Knight? I was thinking the rapid fire battle cannon against regular lists would be strong and the drop pods can killtheir anti tank and let the Knight roam unimpeded.

Khan has to have a bike to make Bike units troops, so your list is illegal. So you need to dig up 25 points somewhere.

Personally, I'd take a tooled up Chapter Master instead of two of the Bike squads, but with Knights and all that running around, you might be better off as it is now. Worth thinking about, though.

The only reason I don't like the Knight Paladin right now as much, is you really wanna hit bike units with it... but, there is probably a 2+ armor character at the front... and since it's not barrage, it's not really worth it. I'd say the Paladin is good b/c the extra heavy stubber is useful for grounding FMCs, but your bikes' bolters are just as good, if not better.

I think a melta command squad can still get work done, but definitely not as efficiently as a grav squad can against most targets; it's a tough call.

The big problem I foresee is that a list geared to kill knights will be easily out-maneuvered by eldar... so finding a list to take both will be very tricky. Be careful you don't end up in a situation where you build a "jack of all trades" list because those types of lists that can't do any 1 thing really well, but do a lot of things just ok... often don't last.

You have the right idea, and use a set of Chapter Tactics like White Scars where you can use Outflank and Scout to get close to Tau, but stay far from the Knights.

Ah, true.

Took the advice and dropped some of pods to have less reliance on suicide squads who would just die in a str or s:8/ap3 explosion. Added back a command squad on bikes and switched them to melta.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The knight is mainly there to duel MCs and be a threat against most "fair" lists. There is a mono khorne player who brings 5 FMCs, a couple tyranid players, plus the regular use of Riptides/Wraithknights.

On the one hand, I don't want to totally tailor my list to Knights because only two players use them, but at the same time if I plan on winning first place I will eventually play them (judging by their dominating performance last tournament).

Perhaps I drop some of the anti-tank, and can go back to bikes spam with Khan and captain on bike, and just turbo boost around the board with 3+ jink save, and hop on all the objectives at the end of the game.

I would like to table them and give them a taste of their own medicine, but stealing a win at the last moment can be satisfactory as well.