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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
They already are "standard", because Escalation is part of the standard game. Refusing to play against it is no different than refusing to play against orks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
And anyone who drops a Lord of War or Knight on the table without warning needs a good bricking.


You have warning. GW said "LoW are now legal".

Right and I've got a brick on it that says "Spirit of the Game". You know, that little paragraph everyone ignores at the front of the rulebook that talks about how the game should be played in a way that is fun for -both- players? The same one that allows you to house rule and homebrew because the core rules are only a framework for an enjoyable experience? That one? Yeah, that's why you should be slapping LoW on the table without at least a warning to your opponent.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be legal, I'm arguing that acting like a tosspot and not giving your opponent any warning you're bring them is the most dickish thing you can do in the game (right now).


This is generally why competitive players don't play pick up games unless they're trying to get a rise out of tabling people.

But, honestly, one imperial knight is not a big deal. If I decide to play some casual games for fun and someone dropped a knight without informing me, I wouldn't be mad because I would have taken necessary steps to make sure my army has a dedicated anti-armor wing for those kind of situations.

The meta has changed and thus so must your armies. Adapt or lose.

If the above is not your idea of fun, you're not my kind of opponent and we shouldn't play together.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

I'd just like to pont out that nothing in the Rulebook says you can select units from Supplements when making your army, only Codices.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

It's not that I am worried about how to oppose fliers, I just don't play 40K for a game with fliers and stuff because I don't think they work in the scale of the game and the table size, etc. I think fixed fortifications are stupid in most cases in a skirmish level game, outside of special scenarios.

I reckon that kind of stuff fits much better in an "Epic" scale of game.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

I don't classify 40k as a "skirmish" level game, there are just too many models on the table. I think "squad level" is a better description as that is how you purchase most units, but the squad (unless your Guard, then you buy platoons and put squads inside of your new nested FOC chart).
   
Made in au
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Perth

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd just like to pont out that nothing in the Rulebook says you can select units from Supplements when making your army, only Codices.


and if that were the end of the argument then there would never be a pro/con FW debate.... infact the "supplements" errata stuff into your codex. eg this model can be taken in that slot as per codex.... time to just accept it and move on, or dont.. and dont play aginst people that want to use these models either way, dont pretend your way is the only way...

in short based on my intrepretation of the rules ill play with my toys and you can watch, because your interpretation of them says i cant... im good with that

CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






The Supplements say you can, GW says you can, etc.

Forgeworld, Supplements and such are all legal ways to use an army, that do not need any explicit permissions from your opponent.

Meaning if you just ask for 'a game', expect anything.

If you're going to ask for 'a 1500pt game with no forgeworld or supplements', then that's up to you, and you're changing the game.

Like people who still want to play 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 5th ed games.
That's up to them, but it isn't the current, legal 40K that you should expect when going for Pick Up Games.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't classify 40k as a "skirmish" level game, there are just too many models on the table. I think "squad level" is a better description as that is how you purchase most units, but the squad (unless your Guard, then you buy platoons and put squads inside of your new nested FOC chart).


It is a skirmish game by the standard definition that a single figure represents a single man. Obviously it's a large skirmish, designed for platoon to company sized forces, so squad level is a good description.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't classify 40k as a "skirmish" level game, there are just too many models on the table. I think "squad level" is a better description as that is how you purchase most units, but the squad (unless your Guard, then you buy platoons and put squads inside of your new nested FOC chart).


It is a skirmish game by the standard definition that a single figure represents a single man. Obviously it's a large skirmish, designed for platoon to company sized forces, so squad level is a good description.


Fair enough. I associate "skirmish" as to refer to games like Warmachine were you have a much smaller model count and the game itself is smaller. Like the old Patrol Missions or Kill Teams.
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

Something I don't get is that people keep talking about 7th, even though it has not been confirmed yet.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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On the Internet

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Something I don't get is that people keep talking about 7th, even though it has not been confirmed yet.

Because they hope the 3 or 4 things they don't like about this edition will go away, and soon.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Something I don't get is that people keep talking about 7th, even though it has not been confirmed yet.


People always talk about rumors that haven't been confirmed, what's different? People speculate on what it could fix/break or how it could change up the game, it's just due to GW being GW it's more often "Oh god what will they feth up this time" than "I wonder what new things will be added"

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Rapid City, SD

I hope super heavy's become part of the "normal game" (normal according to people who don't like escalation/stronghold assault) because maybe people will have to up the point value of their games to keep their TAC lists and still be able to deal with a titan. Then we might actually start getting to real war game rather than a skirmish game.

At 2000 points I have a hard time dealing with certain titans even when I commit 100% of my 2000 points to killing it. Maybe if we upped the point values there might be something else we could do.

Time to take off the 2000 or less points blinders people have on.

Successful trades/sales: tekn0v1king 
   
Made in us
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Catskills in NYS

Skirmish game? Don't make me laugh.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Why do you say that?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Xerics wrote:
I hope super heavy's become part of the "normal game" (normal according to people who don't like escalation/stronghold assault) because maybe people will have to up the point value of their games to keep their TAC lists and still be able to deal with a titan. Then we might actually start getting to real war game rather than a skirmish game.

At 2000 points I have a hard time dealing with certain titans even when I commit 100% of my 2000 points to killing it. Maybe if we upped the point values there might be something else we could do.

Time to take off the 2000 or less points blinders people have on.


Not sure if serious... the game falls completely to pieces at above 2,000 points, more so than any other time. Not to mention the absolutely huge investment that would be. Tell you what, I'd support 3,000 points minimum if GW prices were like they were back in the RT days, or even 1999. Until then, I'd love to see them push a game that requires a thousand dollars minimum to get into.

I find this laughable that instead of dealing with titans by abandoning this "If you buy it, you can use it" like of gak, let's just up the point cost so people don't get stomped by TFG who shows up with a $500 titan and tries to pay to win a tabletop game.

Actually on second though, I do want them to do this just because it'd make them collapse faster.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 18:47:54


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why do you say that?

I find most games are entire armies vieing to win, to me a skirmish would be 500-1000 points. Just my personal experence though.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why do you say that?

I find most games are entire armies vieing to win, to me a skirmish would be 500-1000 points. Just my personal experence though.


Remember, this is 40K. In the background, millions of combatants in one battle is not entirely uncommon.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why do you say that?

I find most games are entire armies vieing to win, to me a skirmish would be 500-1000 points. Just my personal experence though.


OK, I see.

Well, the usual definition of a skirmish game is one in which a single model represents a single man, so they move and shoot individually, which is what happens in 40K.

That is why 40K does not scale well at larger point values. If you double the number of troops, you double the time taken to work out the results of shooting. At some point, the time needed to roll all the dice will exceed the time available to play the game. It is already a problem with horde armies at the 1,800 point level.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Shade of Despair and Torment







Whoops, meant Johnson in WD...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 22:02:38


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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Rapid City, SD

WayneTheGame wrote:
 Xerics wrote:
I hope super heavy's become part of the "normal game" (normal according to people who don't like escalation/stronghold assault) because maybe people will have to up the point value of their games to keep their TAC lists and still be able to deal with a titan. Then we might actually start getting to real war game rather than a skirmish game.

At 2000 points I have a hard time dealing with certain titans even when I commit 100% of my 2000 points to killing it. Maybe if we upped the point values there might be something else we could do.

Time to take off the 2000 or less points blinders people have on.


Not sure if serious... the game falls completely to pieces at above 2,000 points, more so than any other time. Not to mention the absolutely huge investment that would be. Tell you what, I'd support 3,000 points minimum if GW prices were like they were back in the RT days, or even 1999. Until then, I'd love to see them push a game that requires a thousand dollars minimum to get into.

I find this laughable that instead of dealing with titans by abandoning this "If you buy it, you can use it" like of gak, let's just up the point cost so people don't get stomped by TFG who shows up with a $500 titan and tries to pay to win a tabletop game.

Actually on second though, I do want them to do this just because it'd make them collapse faster.


If you look at my signature I already have quite a bit of points so I am dead serious. Also the game does not completely fall to pieces above 2000. It only falls to pieces when elitists play the game at any point value. I have just about every single model in my army except for Illic and Shining Spears.

Also if you spend $500 on a titan you need to be laughed at. Necrons have a transcended Ctan which is not $500. Also you can pick up an Eldar titan or imperial Titan from e-bay for under 200. As a matter of fact i got an armorcast revenant titan for the same price as an imperial knight. Many other superheavys can be gotten from games workshop for orcs, chaos space marines, necrons, and imperial guard with their baneblades. None of them cost $500. Tau are the only ones with the short end of the stick because the only superheavies they have are from forgeworld and crazy expensive, but after all their SMS, riptides, markerlight and farsight crap i don't feel too bad for them.

Also it only costs $1000 if you buy it brand new out of the box. Try e-bay. Patience is your best friend to good deals (also alot of time searching for exactly what you want). But thats how i got alot of my stuff. I got 4 rogue trader wraithlords for the same price as a new plastic wraithlord.

Successful trades/sales: tekn0v1king 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 Xerics wrote:
It only falls to pieces when elitists play the game at any point value.


Define 'elitist'.

Because, in all sincerity, I have no clue what is intended by that.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in ca
Scuttling Genestealer



Canada

 Xerics wrote:
I hope super heavy's become part of the "normal game" (normal according to people who don't like escalation/stronghold assault) because maybe people will have to up the point value of their games to keep their TAC lists and still be able to deal with a titan. Then we might actually start getting to real war game rather than a skirmish game.

At 2000 points I have a hard time dealing with certain titans even when I commit 100% of my 2000 points to killing it. Maybe if we upped the point values there might be something else we could do.

Time to take off the 2000 or less points blinders people have on.


If the "average" game use more points, you'll have less new players, that's for sure. At the moment, most games are 1500 to 1999+1. That's already about 300$-400$. If you up the points, the players need to invest even more to just start being able to play.

-Hive Fleet Wyvern, yay for nids! (around 1000 points) 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Xerics wrote:
I hope super heavy's become part of the "normal game" (normal according to people who don't like escalation/stronghold assault) because maybe people will have to up the point value of their games to keep their TAC lists and still be able to deal with a titan. Then we might actually start getting to real war game rather than a skirmish game.

At 2000 points I have a hard time dealing with certain titans even when I commit 100% of my 2000 points to killing it. Maybe if we upped the point values there might be something else we could do.

Time to take off the 2000 or less points blinders people have on.
I'd be happy enough for 40k to be tiered and super heavies being "normal" in games of 3000+ pts and below that not allowed except for a few rare exceptions.

You might like games above 2000pts, I personally find games above 2000pts painful. I typically collect an army to 1500-2000pts and then start a new army because I have little to no desire to play above that level anyway. Too many models, too unbalanced.

2000pts and less, probably even 3000pts and less to be honest, super heavies/apoc/escalation are NOT well balanced, both in rules and in units. There's wildly varying imbalance in the units themselves, some being terrible and others being awesome. The rules are clearly not designed for them. We are still using the same basic rule set we had, what is it now, 15 years ago? Back when a standard game most certainly did not include big massive things. The game does not scale well to big things. That's obvious in the fact the maximum strength we have is Strength 10, then when you realise that's not enough you have to go "err, ok, Strength D", it's so obviously tacked on to make big things fit in to a rule system for which they aren't suited.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/04 01:14:56


 
   
Made in au
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Perth

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Xerics wrote:
I hope super heavy's become part of the "normal game" (normal according to people who don't like escalation/stronghold assault) because maybe people will have to up the point value of their games to keep their TAC lists and still be able to deal with a titan. Then we might actually start getting to real war game rather than a skirmish game.

At 2000 points I have a hard time dealing with certain titans even when I commit 100% of my 2000 points to killing it. Maybe if we upped the point values there might be something else we could do.

Time to take off the 2000 or less points blinders people have on.
I'd be happy enough for 40k to be tiered and super heavies being "normal" in games of 3000+ pts and below that not allowed except for a few rare exceptions.

You might like games above 2000pts, I personally find games above 2000pts painful. I typically collect an army to 1500-2000pts and then start a new army because I have little to no desire to play above that level anyway. Too many models, too unbalanced.

2000pts and less, probably even 3000pts and less to be honest, super heavies/apoc/escalation are NOT well balanced, both in rules and in units. There's wildly varying imbalance in the units themselves, some being terrible and others being awesome. The rules are clearly not designed for them. We are still using the same basic rule set we had, what is it now, 15 years ago? Back when a standard game most certainly did not include big massive things. The game does not scale well to big things. That's obvious in the fact the maximum strength we have is Strength 10, then when you realise that's not enough you have to go "err, ok, Strength D", it's so obviously tacked on to make big things fit in to a rule system for which they aren't suited.


a 3000pt+ normal game... you go to a game store and say i want to play 3000 pts and see if you ever get a game... the game is only unballanced above 2k points due to TFG stacking 6 riptides in and that kind of rubbish... see how the average army goes filling 4000pts or maybe even 5 into a dbl force org... you run out of slots and then start needing to make choices (unless your BA) thing is 2k isnt an issue at that point level the big titans dont even get in, a reaver is 3/4 of your points.... with only 25% of your points your going to struggle to win... people dont like playing 2k points because of an inate fear of what COULD be put down in front of them... they have all heard of the silly lists... but you need to ask yourself, who at your gaming store owns 6 helldrakes, or riptides or wraithknights.... the list is going to be reeeeeaall short, superheavies are a point sink.

allseing your suggesting that we keep superheavies to apoc... thats all really... pretty sure this is the same argument that was used for flyers.... again give it time and the tears from people will stop. they will see the superheavies being used in tournaments and ZOMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT will happen and well there we go problem solved (sadly adepticon hasnt got them this year due to the recent release of the book, though there is a section where they are running them as well)

but yes GW have upped the anti, bigger armies more models, OR dont buy 2000+ pts and take a 1500 army + superheavy... points made up and it could cost as little as what 100$.

CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
Made in au
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 ausYenLoWang wrote:
a 3000pt+ normal game... you go to a game store and say i want to play 3000 pts and see if you ever get a game... the game is only unballanced above 2k points due to TFG stacking 6 riptides in and that kind of rubbish... see how the average army goes filling 4000pts or maybe even 5 into a dbl force org... you run out of slots and then start needing to make choices (unless your BA) thing is 2k isnt an issue at that point level the big titans dont even get in, a reaver is 3/4 of your points.... with only 25% of your points your going to struggle to win... people dont like playing 2k points because of an inate fear of what COULD be put down in front of them... they have all heard of the silly lists... but you need to ask yourself, who at your gaming store owns 6 helldrakes, or riptides or wraithknights.... the list is going to be reeeeeaall short, superheavies are a point sink.

allseing your suggesting that we keep superheavies to apoc... thats all really... pretty sure this is the same argument that was used for flyers.... again give it time and the tears from people will stop. they will see the superheavies being used in tournaments and ZOMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT will happen and well there we go problem solved (sadly adepticon hasnt got them this year due to the recent release of the book, though there is a section where they are running them as well)

but yes GW have upped the anti, bigger armies more models, OR dont buy 2000+ pts and take a 1500 army + superheavy... points made up and it could cost as little as what 100$.
Would you mind proof reading before you post and using some punctuation and capitals, your post is quite difficult to read (sorry if English isn't your first language, but your location says Australia so I kind of expected some level of English).

Yes, I am saying 40k is not well suited to above 2k pts just like super heavies aren't well suited to the 40k rule system in general.

Just because it's the same argument that was used for flyers doesn't mean it's a bad argument. I love things that fly, I was painting model aircraft before I ever started wargaming and I like buying the flyers for the armies I collect. But damn, it's bloody stupid having high speed fighter aircraft dancing over a tiny skirmish of less than 50 dudes per side. IMO, flyers should have been implemented in the same fashion as the old epic rules, they make a pass over the battlefield, attacking some things along the way, then exit the other side of the battlefield to return a couple of turns later. With close support aircraft like the Valkyrie or FMC's still being able to hover over the battlefield.

40k is not a good rules system for flyers. You know what is a good rules system for flyers? Aeronautica Imperialis. Before GW axed it, it was a great game for playing with flyers. Flyers and ground troops work on different scales of time and space, you'll usually end up compromising one for the other if you want a system that works well.

But anyway, this isn't a discussion about flyers. Superheavies might become standard, IMO it won't be for the benefit of the game, at the moment in a lot of circles they are not standard and despite what the rules say I think people who want to bring superheavies should treat them as something non-standard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/04 02:15:49


 
   
Made in au
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Perth

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
a 3000pt+ normal game... you go to a game store and say i want to play 3000 pts and see if you ever get a game... the game is only unballanced above 2k points due to TFG stacking 6 riptides in and that kind of rubbish... see how the average army goes filling 4000pts or maybe even 5 into a dbl force org... you run out of slots and then start needing to make choices (unless your BA) thing is 2k isnt an issue at that point level the big titans dont even get in, a reaver is 3/4 of your points.... with only 25% of your points your going to struggle to win... people dont like playing 2k points because of an inate fear of what COULD be put down in front of them... they have all heard of the silly lists... but you need to ask yourself, who at your gaming store owns 6 helldrakes, or riptides or wraithknights.... the list is going to be reeeeeaall short, superheavies are a point sink.

allseing your suggesting that we keep superheavies to apoc... thats all really... pretty sure this is the same argument that was used for flyers.... again give it time and the tears from people will stop. they will see the superheavies being used in tournaments and ZOMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT will happen and well there we go problem solved (sadly adepticon hasnt got them this year due to the recent release of the book, though there is a section where they are running them as well)

but yes GW have upped the anti, bigger armies more models, OR dont buy 2000+ pts and take a 1500 army + superheavy... points made up and it could cost as little as what 100$.
Would you mind proof reading before you post and using some punctuation and capitals, your post is quite difficult to read (sorry if English isn't your first language, but your location says Australia so I kind of expected some level of English).

Yes, I am saying 40k is not well suited to above 2k pts just like super heavies aren't well suited to the 40k rule system in general.

Just because it's the same argument that was used for flyers doesn't mean it's a bad argument. I love things that fly, I was painting model aircraft before I ever started wargaming and I like buying the flyers for the armies I collect. But damn, it's bloody stupid having high speed fighter aircraft dancing over a tiny skirmish of less than 50 dudes per side. IMO, flyers should have been implemented in the same fashion as the old epic rules, they make a pass over the battlefield, attacking some things along the way, then exit the other side of the battlefield to return a couple of turns later. With close support aircraft like the Valkyrie or FMC's still being able to hover over the battlefield.

40k is not a good rules system for flyers. You know what is a good rules system for flyers? Aeronautica Imperialis. Before GW axed it, it was a great game for playing with flyers. Flyers and ground troops work on different scales of time and space, you'll usually end up compromising one for the other if you want a system that works well.

But anyway, this isn't a discussion about flyers. Superheavies might become standard, IMO it won't be for the benefit of the game, at the moment in a lot of circles they are not standard and despite what the rules say I think people who want to bring superheavies should treat them as something non-standard.


sorry if you have trouble comprehending what i have to say. the lack of capitilisation is i am busy and writing this in my spare time between doing other things. if you would like i can get someone else to do it all for me. i am an aussie, i am a perth lad and i speak perfect english. just tend to type fast and forum boards dont do text editing like other software i have.
now in YOUR area they arent accepted, in others they are... thats ok for you. the ENTIRE ruleset for 40k isnt great or tightly written so dont expect perfection or tournament levels of rules for it in any way shape or form. now to add to this its NOT a skirmish. having a model come in fly over then be sideboarded for another couple of turns when you only have MAYBE 6? waste of time... so just get rid of it... dont make a model, and just make it a wargear option for an airstrike. saves time money and effort... look ahead and realise this is how the game WILL be, nothing thats been added will be taken away.

if you want a true skirmish style game thats small squad based and tight rules, play warmachine, because thats what it is. now in WM just remember a half inch muckup and game over turn 2.

the setting for 40k is MASSIVE battles, if it helps you consider the marines you field at a 1:10 ratio, a representation of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/04 02:34:58


CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
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Chicago, Illinois

Honestly I don't have any problems with fortifications if they were evenly distributed across the races.

Why are my Necrons buying a Aegis Defence Line and who in the Imperium is selling Military hardware to them?

Sorry but it's bs that they couldn't be bothered to make some race specific terrain.

That said if they force Escalation and City of Death it will ruin the game and tournaments will specifically have to disallow Lords of War.

They're to powerful without some sort of Caveat or point restriction

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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Rapid City, SD

 Blacksails wrote:
 Xerics wrote:
It only falls to pieces when elitists play the game at any point value.


Define 'elitist'.

Because, in all sincerity, I have no clue what is intended by that.


Elitist as in has to use only certain units. WAAC players. Internet list players who only play those lists. I have a hard time finding theory crafters out here where I am. Everyone uses a net list and if you don't you are laughed at. I'm working on a 2k list to beat a Revenant without using a super heavy but its rough and I don't get to play test it much.

Elitists are also people who play the flavor of the month. I have played Eldar since I started before I even knew how powerful they were. My first units were 4 howling banshees and a wraithlord (which I still have today) and that was back in 2007. I didn't start really playing the game until 2011 but I chose Eldar back in 2007 with those models. I know a lot of people who dumped Blood Angels after they no longer became a top tier army. Same goes for Imperial Guard. I like to call these people "Flavor of the Month" people because not only do they use the lists that other people come up with and post on the internet but they also abandon an army when it isn't the best army like it was making them unpopular or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
a 3000pt+ normal game... you go to a game store and say i want to play 3000 pts and see if you ever get a game... the game is only unballanced above 2k points due to TFG stacking 6 riptides in and that kind of rubbish... see how the average army goes filling 4000pts or maybe even 5 into a dbl force org... you run out of slots and then start needing to make choices (unless your BA) thing is 2k isnt an issue at that point level the big titans dont even get in, a reaver is 3/4 of your points.... with only 25% of your points your going to struggle to win... people dont like playing 2k points because of an inate fear of what COULD be put down in front of them... they have all heard of the silly lists... but you need to ask yourself, who at your gaming store owns 6 helldrakes, or riptides or wraithknights.... the list is going to be reeeeeaall short, superheavies are a point sink.

allseing your suggesting that we keep superheavies to apoc... thats all really... pretty sure this is the same argument that was used for flyers.... again give it time and the tears from people will stop. they will see the superheavies being used in tournaments and ZOMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT will happen and well there we go problem solved (sadly adepticon hasnt got them this year due to the recent release of the book, though there is a section where they are running them as well)

but yes GW have upped the anti, bigger armies more models, OR dont buy 2000+ pts and take a 1500 army + superheavy... points made up and it could cost as little as what 100$.
Would you mind proof reading before you post and using some punctuation and capitals, your post is quite difficult to read (sorry if English isn't your first language, but your location says Australia so I kind of expected some level of English).

Yes, I am saying 40k is not well suited to above 2k pts just like super heavies aren't well suited to the 40k rule system in general.

Just because it's the same argument that was used for flyers doesn't mean it's a bad argument. I love things that fly, I was painting model aircraft before I ever started wargaming and I like buying the flyers for the armies I collect. But damn, it's bloody stupid having high speed fighter aircraft dancing over a tiny skirmish of less than 50 dudes per side. IMO, flyers should have been implemented in the same fashion as the old epic rules, they make a pass over the battlefield, attacking some things along the way, then exit the other side of the battlefield to return a couple of turns later. With close support aircraft like the Valkyrie or FMC's still being able to hover over the battlefield.

40k is not a good rules system for flyers. You know what is a good rules system for flyers? Aeronautica Imperialis. Before GW axed it, it was a great game for playing with flyers. Flyers and ground troops work on different scales of time and space, you'll usually end up compromising one for the other if you want a system that works well.

But anyway, this isn't a discussion about flyers. Superheavies might become standard, IMO it won't be for the benefit of the game, at the moment in a lot of circles they are not standard and despite what the rules say I think people who want to bring superheavies should treat them as something non-standard.


Superheavies need to become the next standard thing. Here is Games workshop thinking. If there are superheavies in play you will need a superheavy to deal with them or buy more models designed to attack it. That means more money for them because now you have to buy more to deal with the dynamic direction of the game. So in reality all those people who every calls "TFG" because he has a Titan is actually helping keep GW in business as now everyone has to deal with it. People who are actual collectors and buy all the models (not just the ones to make that awesome 1500, 1750, 1850 and 2000 net lists) already have the tools to try and beat these monstrosities and the best part is we have been picking them up when they were still cheap (at least compared to today's prices). We had the foresight to get these models. Now that everyone is finally being forced to dealing with them they are going to cry foul at GW prices (which i will admit have gotten steep these last few years).

I feel like this is one of those times where people need to adapt. And while alot of people are going to resist there is no game like warhammer 40k Some might get attracted to warmachine and other games. But you will always have the itch in the back of your mind that those other games just can't fill. Its like playing world of warcraft for 5 years and then trying to quit and go to a different MMORPG. There is always that draw back to where you came from.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/04 04:43:12


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Flashy Flashgitz




Canberra, Down Under

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For starters, I look awful in tinfoil hats


For some reason this seemed quotable.

On topic though, I'm with Zion. I don't think Superheavies should be in 40K at all, and if you're enough of a gakbag to bring one then you should give your opponent forewarning. It's only fair. Nobody I know would even think of playing one without telling their opponents, because games are supposed to be enjoyable for both parties. Who likes crushing their friends?

I don't play in a tournament setting though, so I can't speak for the hardcore/angry/egotistical crowd. Maybe that is their jam.


Current Proposed Rules Project: Orkish AC-130 Spekta Gunship!

WAAAGH Sparky!
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Kommander Sparks DKoK
1000 (ish) - Now on the backburner

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On the Internet

 Sparkadia wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
For starters, I look awful in tinfoil hats


For some reason this seemed quotable.

On topic though, I'm with Zion. I don't think Superheavies should be in 40K at all, and if you're enough of a gakbag to bring one then you should give your opponent forewarning. It's only fair. Nobody I know would even think of playing one without telling their opponents, because games are supposed to be enjoyable for both parties. Who likes crushing their friends?

I don't play in a tournament setting though, so I can't speak for the hardcore/angry/egotistical crowd. Maybe that is their jam.


I think people misunderstand, I think EVERYTHING belongs in 40k, but people need to be respectful enough of each other's time to warn them when they're bringing something like a Super Heavy in a list. I know what Peregrine likes to say that I've "been warned" but I still want enough respect out of my opponent to tell me about it before we set the table up, get everything ready and then he slaps it on the table, maybe even ask me if I'll need to change things to handle the new threat because my pre-drafted list was made for a different meta that largely involved dealing with gunlines.

I just don't want to feel like my time has been wasted, and I don't think anyone else does either.
   
 
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