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A lot of people mention them having a Catholic origin, yea definitely have the symbols with the Rosary and stuff, I think also a big televangelist thing going on too with the state broadcasts in hive cities and the mentioning of getting poor people to give up what little money they have, a lot of new age stuff, so basically a bad mix of Medieval Catholic, Ted Haggard, and Jim Jones.

I'd say medieval to renaissance christianity, rather than catholicism specifically - since the church didn't really split until the 16th century, so for most of the period from which 40K draws its inspiration the Catholic Church was to all intents and purposes just THE Church.

We associate it more with Catholicism now as that branch has held onto more of the structures and iconography of the era.

I'd say televangelism (and cult leaders like Jim Jones) would be closer to the workings of chaos cults - they're more a distinctly american phenomenon than something that had a lot of pop cultural impact in the UK at the time when 40K was being conceived.

So yeah, the Ecclesiarchy in most of its workings is the medieval church brought into a sci-fi setting. I've always felt that 'The Name of the Rose' would only need a few boltguns to make it a 40K novel/fim.

A lot of people mention them having a Catholic origin, yea definitely have the symbols with the Rosary and stuff, I think also a big televangelist thing going on too with the state broadcasts in hive cities and the mentioning of getting poor people to give up what little money they have, a lot of new age stuff, so basically a bad mix of Medieval Catholic, Ted Haggard, and Jim Jones.

Not really. Televangelism is a near-uniquely American Protestant thing, in the main, and is not really seen elsewhere in the world. Heck, Fundamentalist Evangelicals are almost uniquely American as a whole.

40K being a very British thing, the Ecclesiarchy is based on the Catholic and Anglican Churches of the Dark Ages (obv. not the Anglicans of this era, as there weren't any) on through the 19th/early 20th centuries. That the Church is strongly in control of the state-run media is an aspect of the totalitarian nature of the Imperium, not a megachurch seeking more donations and converts (there's no one to convert in the Imperium, you're either already a member of the congregation, or you're a heretic.).

I've always seen them as being based partially on the Dark Age Catholic Church with a healthy addition of crusade-era religious intolerance.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I've always seen them as being based partially on the Dark Age Catholic Church with a healthy addition of crusade-era religious intolerance.

Definitely. The tele-evangelism comparisons are interesting too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the entire Age of Apostasy seems like a play on the protestant reformation.

That is exactly what the AoA is based on.

I would think they are based more on the Renaissance Catholic Church than the Dark Age one, altough it does have a lot of Dark Ages elements as well (with the making of "Christian" versions of local religions and traditions etc.)

And is the Nova Terra Interregnum based on the Great Schism? With the rebelling world named Constantinium, that seems kinda obvious.

Also, televangalism? Never heard of that before. From the little I have read about it just now, it doesn't seem Christian at all. Megachurches? Lots of money? Sounds more like some commercialist ripoff to me.

They are based off the Dune series for the most part.

Sisters of Battle - Fish Speakers
Ecclesiarchy - The Shining Truth/Orange Catholic Bible
Space Marines - Sardaukar
Navigators - Navigators
Padishah - Pre-Unification
Leto II - God Emperor

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, televangalism? Never heard of that before. From the little I have read about it just now, it doesn't seem Christian at all. Megachurches? Lots of money? Sounds more like some commercialist ripoff to me.

Welcome to the United States.

Anyone claiming to be faithful while televangelising is a con artist and nothing more. Despicable perversions of priesthood that give real clerics a bad name.

Spoken as someone who is neither Christian nor religiously intolerant, feth those guys.

Getting way off-topic here but... several versions of American Protestantism have a "Gospel of Plenty", based on some theological writings by A.C. Campbell and other religious leaders in the early 20th century, wired into them, which basically preaches that, the wealthier you are, the more-blessed by God you are.

Most of the congregations that follow these groups are in extremely poor parts of the country, and so they devote money to the church (making it wealthy), I suppose in the hope that some of that blessing will "rub off" onto them.

It's... kind of sad, actually.

 Psienesis wrote:
Getting way off-topic here but... several versions of American Protestantism have a "Gospel of Plenty", based on some theological writings by A.C. Campbell and other religious leaders in the early 20th century, wired into them, which basically preaches that, the wealthier you are, the more-blessed by God you are.

Most of the congregations that follow these groups are in extremely poor parts of the country, and so they devote money to the church (making it wealthy), I suppose in the hope that some of that blessing will "rub off" onto them.

It's... kind of sad, actually.

That seems illogical.
If the sermon is that the more money one has, the more blessed one would be, wouldn't it be more prudent to not give money away?
This just leaves me scratching my head.

I'm not a member of such a congregation, so I can not attempt to explain the logic behind it, but neither can I explain the logic behind any system of religious belief, so I'm not really going to try.

The basic gist of it all is that a lot of these groups (and these groups are the bulk of American Fundamentalist Evangelicals) believe that God wants you to be rich, to have a lot of money, and so forth and so on.

The words of Jesus, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" seems entirely lost on them.

The Eye of the Needle was supposedly a narrow gate into Jerusalem, by which Jesus entered the city. >>

Also, that particular phrase was, I believe, coined during the King James rewrite of the Bible to encourage people to give their wealth to the king and the church in a primitive form of socialism.

The Ecclesiarchy aren't really based on anything other then the stereotypical big bad church.

Its a relatively common theme in sci-fi/fantasy books, and it's really hard to nail its origin.

It's kinda like the Imperium is humanity at its worst natural progression.

The Ecclesiarchy is religion at its worst natural progression.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Eye of the Needle was supposedly a narrow gate into Jerusalem, by which Jesus entered the city. >>

Also, that particular phrase was, I believe, coined during the King James rewrite of the Bible to encourage people to give their wealth to the king and the church in a primitive form of socialism.

So than why is it in Russian and Dutch Bibles as well? They weren't copied from the King James Bible. The phrase must already have been present at least in the Septuagint.

 Psienesis wrote:
The basic gist of it all is that a lot of these groups believe that God wants you to be rich, to have a lot of money, and so forth and so on.

It's the American Dream with a religious twist - if you're rich and succesful it's because you have divine favor. So by hanging out with you maybe some of that favor will rub off?

People have always had opinions on money and religion, ranging from one extreme to the other. The Catholic church even branded one of the larger "be poor" sects as heretics and destroyed them with extreme prejudice because they dared suggest the church was too focused on accumulating wealth.

For the younger members / those who aren't as geekily endowed:

The Inquisition / Ecclesiarchy are based on the Sci-Fi comic 'Nemesis the Warlock'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_the_Warlock

This in turn gave rise to tongue-in-cheek characters such as Torquemada Coteaz
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Torquemada_Coteaz

Originally based on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada_(comics) from the aforementioned Nemesis the Warlock.



Much of the humor has been forgotten to the mists of time - there are other characters in the W40K universe who are inside jokes, have fun finding them ^^

 Psienesis wrote:
Getting way off-topic here but... several versions of American Protestantism have a "Gospel of Plenty", based on some theological writings by A.C. Campbell and other religious leaders in the early 20th century, wired into them, which basically preaches that, the wealthier you are, the more-blessed by God you are.

Most of the congregations that follow these groups are in extremely poor parts of the country, and so they devote money to the church (making it wealthy), I suppose in the hope that some of that blessing will "rub off" onto them.

It's... kind of sad, actually.

Actually, the idea that wealth indicates diestic favor is NOT new nor uniquely American. Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity have all favored that idea at various points (if you've ever spent much time in the Middle East, it is very much one law for the regulars and one law for the rich/powerful, and it isn't even that hidden or disguised). The same is true for Hinduism (where the rich or famous may even be diefied and prayed to, I've seen people carrying the latest Boliwood film through the streets with people praying to images of the stars in the film), Buddism/Shintoism (where the higher caste did as they liked), State sponsored athiesm (both communist China and communist Russia allowed benifits and special perks for their top political party people).

From an American perspective, the Puritans believed this wholeheartedly (and believed it before they were Americans), so it isn't surprising to see.

That said, I see definite parallels to the Jesuit order and the Spanish/Portugese attempt at demarcating the world. The church being given a preeminant power that controlled expansion into new places. To the point of exterminating the local populations until they complied. Right down to the conquistadors leading armies of the faithful to fight for religion.

 Wulfmar wrote:
For the younger members / those who aren't as geekily endowed:

The Inquisition / Ecclesiarchy are based on the Sci-Fi comic 'Nemesis the Warlock'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_the_Warlock

This in turn gave rise to tongue-in-cheek characters such as Torquemada Coteaz
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Torquemada_Coteaz

Originally based on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada_(comics) from the aforementioned Nemesis the Warlock.

Spoiler:

Much of the humor has been forgotten to the mists of time - there are other characters in the W40K universe who are inside jokes, have fun finding them ^^

Yeah, you can clearly see the inspiration behind the IoM there.

Seems I was wrong about Coteaz too; I thought he was inspired by Tomas de Torquemada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada

What didn't 80s GW borrow from 2000AD?
Can't really blame them. It was a good comic.

Buddism/Shintoism (where the higher caste did as they liked)

You're missing the point. The Gospel of Plenty, in modern Fundamentalist Evangelicalism, teaches that you are rich because God wants you to be rich and has blessed you, and you're poor because you're a sinner. Thus, people give money to these churches as a form of absolution, in the hope that God will forgive them and make them rich.

Rather, that seems to be the underlying psychological explanations. It's obviously not stated quite that clearly, or it wouldn't be as popular as it is... but Fundamentalist Evangelicalism is something you have to see in action to believe. It all but requires a literal translation of the Bible, which is why so many of them are Young Earth Creationists. Even the early Catholics, Jews and the Gnostic cults knew that much of the Bible was meant as metaphor or illustrative parable, not to be read as if a given story happened *exactly* as was written down. They also fully understood that most books contained in either Testament were often written centuries after the events they describe. Many Evangelicals don't believe this, and think that the Old Testament was basically written as it happened... and thus believed that God created the world in 6 24-hour days, and then date the Earth from the ages listed for Adam to the modern age... giving you a total planet's age of roughly 6000 years.

This is preposterous... but this is the face of modern American Evangelicals.

Puritans *definitely* did not have this idea, as one of the largest blocks of Puritans in America were the Calvinists, who eschewed any sort of ostentation or display of wealth. Other Puritan groups later became Quakers or Mennonites, neither of which are particularly known for wealth (unlike, say, Mormons, the wealthiest of wealthy churches in the US.)

Islam has nothing to do with American Protestantism, either. Even historically, when we weren't launching crusades against it, the only interaction they had was on various inter-faith councils as PACs.

State sponsored athiesm (both communist China and communist Russia allowed benifits and special perks for their top political party people).

Isn't a religion, by any stretch of the word, and has nothing to do with the Gospel of Plenty.

State-sponsored atheism removes the tie of the populace from religious groups (which, historically, has caused political issues in Europe, from which the political philosophy of Communism arose) and thus in such states it is removed.

It should be noted that, of all the countries Marx believed would experience a Communist Revolution, Russia and China were *extremely* low on that list. He was expecting it to happen in countries with strong industrial economies, like the UK and Germany. Neither China nor Russia had such an economy when their Revolutions came. In fact, not a single country that has undergone a Communist Revolution meets Marx's criteria for it.

And, of course, with a resurgent Russian Orthodox Church dictating political policies, we see why Communist States banned religious practices (or tried to, at any rate).

In China, the Buddhists had, historically, been a dangerous foe to several various leaders. The Shao Lin Temple, specifically, had really fethed warlords and would-be Emperors and such up real bad a number of times. Removing them removed a potentially counter-Revolutionary element from society.

What didn't 80s GW borrow from 2000AD?

Inquisitor Sherlock Obi Wan Clouseau.

 Psienesis wrote:

What didn't 80s GW borrow from 2000AD?

Inquisitor Sherlock Obi Wan Clouseau.

Ha ha, good point.

I forgot about him ^^

 Psienesis wrote:

Buddism/Shintoism (where the higher caste did as they liked)

You're missing the point. The Gospel of Plenty, in modern Fundamentalist Evangelicalism, teaches that you are rich because God wants you to be rich and has blessed you, and you're poor because you're a sinner. Thus, people give money to these churches as a form of absolution, in the hope that God will forgive them and make them rich.

Rather, that seems to be the underlying psychological explanations. It's obviously not stated quite that clearly, or it wouldn't be as popular as it is... but Fundamentalist Evangelicalism is something you have to see in action to believe. It all but requires a literal translation of the Bible, which is why so many of them are Young Earth Creationists. Even the early Catholics, Jews and the Gnostic cults knew that much of the Bible was meant as metaphor or illustrative parable, not to be read as if a given story happened *exactly* as was written down. They also fully understood that most books contained in either Testament were often written centuries after the events they describe. Many Evangelicals don't believe this, and think that the Old Testament was basically written as it happened... and thus believed that God created the world in 6 24-hour days, and then date the Earth from the ages listed for Adam to the modern age... giving you a total planet's age of roughly 6000 years.

This is preposterous... but this is the face of modern American Evangelicals.

Puritans *definitely* did not have this idea, as one of the largest blocks of Puritans in America were the Calvinists, who eschewed any sort of ostentation or display of wealth. Other Puritan groups later became Quakers or Mennonites, neither of which are particularly known for wealth (unlike, say, Mormons, the wealthiest of wealthy churches in the US.)

Islam has nothing to do with American Protestantism, either. Even historically, when we weren't launching crusades against it, the only interaction they had was on various inter-faith councils as PACs.

State sponsored athiesm (both communist China and communist Russia allowed benifits and special perks for their top political party people).

Isn't a religion, by any stretch of the word, and has nothing to do with the Gospel of Plenty.

State-sponsored atheism removes the tie of the populace from religious groups (which, historically, has caused political issues in Europe, from which the political philosophy of Communism arose) and thus in such states it is removed.

It should be noted that, of all the countries Marx believed would experience a Communist Revolution, Russia and China were *extremely* low on that list. He was expecting it to happen in countries with strong industrial economies, like the UK and Germany. Neither China nor Russia had such an economy when their Revolutions came. In fact, not a single country that has undergone a Communist Revolution meets Marx's criteria for it.

And, of course, with a resurgent Russian Orthodox Church dictating political policies, we see why Communist States banned religious practices (or tried to, at any rate).

In China, the Buddhists had, historically, been a dangerous foe to several various leaders. The Shao Lin Temple, specifically, had really fethed warlords and would-be Emperors and such up real bad a number of times. Removing them removed a potentially counter-Revolutionary element from society.

What didn't 80s GW borrow from 2000AD?

Inquisitor Sherlock Obi Wan Clouseau.

Parts of which are out and out wrong, American Puritanism did espouse the richer the more favored. Something specifically captured in early American literature. Mormanism has long espoused, richer means more favored and holier. Studying it's long history is a page on the upper echelons abusing and rewriting their faith as a constant credo. Hell, even Arthur Conan Doyle, writing about them in the 1800s notes on this (which, outside of studying the faith from a historical perspective, which verifies this) indicating that at least internationally it was known that the Mormon faith favored wealth makes right (and the Mormons are not fundamentalist/protestant Christians, as they do not believe in the core concepts necessary to be classified as such, but that is another debate).

Islam has many problems, and to say us declaring crusades is a total misnomer, given that Islam invaded the west first. Spain spent hundreds of years in the reconquista driving out Muslim invaders, long before Pope Urban decried a crusade. Even back to this point, Emirs and potentates were known to skirt their own rules where it fit them (such as the concept that dates back at least that far of the children of the book, conveniently ignored when the faith wanted to expand). One of the great failings of middle eastern society has been this tendency of the wealthy/powerful to be allowed to do whatever while grinding their population under rules that don't apply to them.

Hindu philosophy espouses the caste system. India today still struggles with the untouchable caste system, or the fact that certain castes are able to abuse lower castes without regard (which I have watched happen first hand, when a salesman for our company talked down to lower caste employees, and then when in a meeting with a higher caste person had to take it like a chump in turn). When India had those major floods a few years back, whole groups of people were left to die when mostly open boats would not pick up the untouchables because a few other people not of that caste were on the boat. Openly murdered people without serious reprecussions or actions at the time.

Tsarist Russia, Medieval Europe (where if you were rich enough you could just buy indulgences and get out of any sin), Communist Controlled countries, etc. Wealth/power or the 'supposed' lack there of has long been used by all societies as a way to say the rules no longer apply to you or that you are somehow more favored (Roman/Greek religions, as an example, hell, the entire concept of 'kings' being divinely backed, which has been seen all over the planet). Stalin had his vacation house, the ruling powers of North Korea,....

To lay it at the feet of modern Christian fundamentalists is openly disingenuous. They have plenty of faults, but to imply that 'richer is righter' is beholden only to them is a lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
They are based off the Dune series for the most part.

Sisters of Battle - Fish Speakers
Ecclesiarchy - The Shining Truth/Orange Catholic Bible
Space Marines - Sardaukar
Navigators - Navigators
Padishah - Pre-Unification
Leto II - God Emperor

He nailed it. The original RT book had many many references to Dune almost to ther point where I thought it could be a prequel to Dune. Glow-globes, navigators, mind reading wires in the head, etc etc.

Islam has many problems, and to say us declaring crusades is a total misnomer, given that Islam invaded the west first. Spain spent hundreds of years in the reconquista driving out Muslim invaders, long before Pope Urban decried a crusade. Even back to this point, Emirs and potentates were known to skirt their own rules where it fit them (such as the concept that dates back at least that far of the children of the book, conveniently ignored when the faith wanted to expand). One of the great failings of middle eastern society has been this tendency of the wealthy/powerful to be allowed to do whatever while grinding their population under rules that don't apply to them.

I'm talking about the crusades that started in c. 2001 AD.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
They are based off the Dune series for the most part.

Sisters of Battle - Fish Speakers
Ecclesiarchy - The Shining Truth/Orange Catholic Bible
Space Marines - Sardaukar
Navigators - Navigators
Padishah - Pre-Unification
Leto II - God Emperor

Post Men of Iron stance on AIs - Butlerian Jihad

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm talking about the crusades that started in c. 2001 AD.

Wait, someone started a crusade in 2001 AD ? Who ?

Dick Cheney and George Bush.

 Psienesis wrote:
Dick Cheney and George Bush.

Hmm, I must have missed the part where Bush planted a flag in Iraq, forced all the muslims out and moved christians in, renamed all the cities and took complete political and religious control. Now I'm sure all the jews and christians in Iraq are happy and secure as the ruling.. whats that? The last Synagogue in Iraq closed in 2004? The US are withdrawing all military forces? Well we still have our hand picked minions running the government who will give us all the oil and gas contracts right? What do you mean the chinese got them!!!

If it really was a war for oil how come I'm paying 3x what gas cost in 2000?