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He knew this was the ultimate battle. Of course he's going to grab EVERYONE he can. Even a trooper with just a lasgun is better than NOTHING.

When you're about to fight the battle that could determine EVERYTHING, you take EVERYTHING. Thus the Emperor took Pious and a whole truckton of other Imperial army troopers with him, likely simply because they were THERE. A general's got to go to war with the army he's got even if it's a weak army (relatively), but that certainly beats not taking that army at all.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 da001 wrote:
It is still a tale. But a boring, lame one. One I am not interested in hearing how it ends. That is related to even worse stuff recently added to something many people thought it was a great story.

And here we have the crux of the issue “This is wrong because I don’t like it”. Wow such objectiveness, such argument.
(...)

And what did you expect? It is a fictional tale. At the end of the day, some people like it and some people don´t. Many people have already given the objective reasons why this version of the story is, in our opinion, worse. Read them up.

At the end of all the objective reasonings you just completely ignored (the many plot holes caused by perpetuals, the loss of drama due to nearly invulnerable and immortal characters in a story about conflict and war, the loss of one of the few human characters, the meaningless of the 'sacrifice', the overabundance of special snowflakes, the 'lost-effect' of having mystery after mystery added to the story while none is solved and coherence is lost, the simple fact that they are changing a story we loved into something new, ...) lays the true reason: personal, subjective opinion.

Opinion is the only thing you´ll get.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Ollanious Pious (at least the original version) represents the ultimate ideal of the imperial guard.

It represents imperial propaganda, would'nt the Emp take only space marines with him, why is he telephoning with Guardsmen.

Because he need every able body to crush his traitorous son... you slithering scion of chaos! (and because he knows that in truth, marines are the weaker and humble humans are the future and soul of the Imperium, the stronger ones...you abhorrent seed of evil!)

To OP: Because his perpetual body diminishes his sacrifice. Being just mere human in universe of demigods, see your Emperor-God beaten to pulp by mighty Warmaster powered by dark forces...and stand fast, defend your ruler, despite fact you know you die, its act of gigantic guts and balls. And its hell of a heroic and grimdark, because he is flayed alive, crushed to soup in matter of second. HE HELD HIS ONE MAN LINE!

By making him immortal its just losing what makes his story unique and loved by fans. Its just average sci-fi/ fantasy blabbering without guts and real strenght. "OK, Empy is in danger...time to make ultimate sacrifice...I wont be able to eat my dinner today...OK Horus, do your best...ouch...OK, time to reincarnate...such sacrifice...my dinner"

 Redcruisair wrote:
(...)
To be honest, the old story of a lonely imperial trooper somehow slipping past daemons and what not to miraculously save the Emperor at the last minute is truly even more fanciful of a tale than the new spin BL has put on Pius. Which reminds me, I’m still waiting for someone to respond to my three points about Pius.

1) He was lucky. An army can suffer massive casualties, and yet a given soldier may survive. He was not alone.
2) Teleported. The Emperor got a lot of people in the middle of a siege he was losing and send them. He couldn´t afford being picky. Also, humans were not that 'zero value' in the old background. That´s partly the reason why people do not like the change. Many human readers enjoy reading about humans doing interesting things, not just superheros doing superhero stuff.
3) He was lucky. All loyalist knew how the Vengeful Spirit was built, yet they got lost due to the changes done by chaos. Yet a single soldier may appear at any given moment at any point in the ship. And they were all looking for the Empeor.

And:
4) Most probably it is just an in-universe legend.
5) He didn´t save the Emperor by acting noble. He just was there and died horribly.
6) The full story was supposed to be something of a tale. There are many odd things, starting with the Emperor allowing his son to rip off his lungs, among other things, before reacting.
7) The old story worked as a legend. The new story still doesn´t make sense, for the many reasons given. Attacking the old story doesn´t make the new version any better.

 Redcruisair wrote:
The way I see it, there are three major problems with Pius old story.

1) How did he manage to stay alive on Horus ship? Pius surviving all the horrors inside a chaos infested ship filled to the brim with mutants, chaos marines and daemons defies all logic.

2) How did he even end up in Horus ship to begin with? Why did a normal imperial army soldier accompany the Emperor and his bodyguard on such a crucial boarding mission? That on seat was better used for another superhuman warrior I say.

3) How could a normal guardsman even navigate the halls of Horus ship without some special gimmick to help him out? We are talking about a humongous ship here with enough space within it to house millions of souls.


Just admit it already, Ollanius Pius story of old has more plot holes in it than Swiss cheese.

1) Because he's walking beside the Emperor.
2) Because he was standing in the room when the Emperor stood up and said "Now's our chance! Let's go!"
3) Because he was simply following the Emperor and the rest of the boarding party.

Ollanius Pius has hate? I am disappoint.

On a serious note: You really think anyone would shoot or manipulate a guardsmen when the emperor was there? See a 10 pound note in a street and you probably will pick in up, get offered a choice between that or a gold bar and you will go for the gold pretty much every time. Besides - luck.

Funny thing is people acting like the Ollanius Pious story should be inspected with laws of physics (and busted in that case, because it couldnt work)...in WH40K world )

 Psienesis wrote:
1) Because he's walking beside the Emperor.

Citation please.

 Psienesis wrote:
2) Because he was standing in the room when the Emperor stood up and said "Now's our chance! Let's go!"

Citation please.

 Psienesis wrote:
3) Because he was simply following the Emperor and the rest of the boarding party.

Citation please.

Nowhere in the fluff has there been any mentioning of imperial army personal accompanying the Emperor to Horus throne room. Even the official artwork (both new and old) shows that it was genetically altered warriors, who along with their master confronted Horus.

When Oll is informed of his mission by John (if I remember right) doesn't he take his knife and cut a hole in reality with it and walk through? My memory truly sucks balls can't even remember the bloody book it was in..

It stands to reason that when he came through the 'other side' it was right into the belly of the beast exactly when he needed to be there to influence the fight between the big boys.

Remus Ventanus wrote:
perpetual

Awful concept that has no place in 40k.

On a slightly related note, I argue the same reasoning behind the original Ollanius Pius sacrifice (whether or not Ollanius was originally conceived to be a real person or just a moral tale invented later) lies behind Sanguinius falling before Horus.

Later Blood Angels would believe Sanguinius accomplished something material like opening up a gash or weakness in Horus's armor (and I sincerely hope GW doesn't retcon this to be so), but I much prefer the original where Sanguinius knows full well the futility of fighting yet still refuses to join Horus, and gets cut down without accomplishing anything material. Sangunius actually accomplishing something takes away the whole point of moral strength in the face of hopelessness, because if he actually does something it was not truly hopeless. What Sanguinius accomplishes through his death was not anything material but a spiritual effect upon the Emperor.

Ollanius Pius being some sort of special snowflake immortal detracts from the sacrifice because there is the possibility however slight that he might return or not have really died, and because he was already so much more than your average human. Sanguinius actually doing something to Horus other than dying detracts from his sacrifice because Primarchs accomplishing martial heroics before breakfast is yawn inducing run of the mill stuff but a Primarch actually facing truly hopeless circumstances requiring moral strength is a lot more rare. The point about the nobility of the sacrifice is that even when things were hopeless Sanguinius did the right thing, even when logically it might seem the irrational choice. If there was any chance of actually doing anything by fighting, then fighting would still have been a rational choice and less of a struggle to make. It's easy to decide to fight if you think you have a chance. It's another thing to do so knowing you have none but still refusing to turn traitor and compromise morals and ideals.

 da001 wrote:

1) He was not alone.

No? How do you know? How do you know who was on the ship and what groups they were divided into? Do you have list with the names of the people boarding Horus flagship? If so I can I see it?

 da001 wrote:

2) Teleported. The Emperor got a lot of people in the middle of a siege he was losing and send them. He couldn´t afford being picky. Also, humans were not that 'zero value' in the old background. That´s partly the reason why people do not like the change. Many human readers enjoy reading about humans doing interesting things, not just superheros doing superhero stuff.

There is a limit to how many people you can cram inside a teleporter, and given how it was a ‘do or die’ situation, chances are only the most fit warriors were picked for this duty, imperial army personal are simply not good enough.

Also you need to learn the distinction between superhuman and immortal beings. Space marine falls under the former category, while Pius belongs in the latter one.

 da001 wrote:

3) He was lucky. All loyalist knew how the Vengeful Spirit was built, yet they got lost due to the changes done by chaos. Yet a single soldier may appear at any given moment at any point in the ship. And they were all looking for the Empeor.

They were all looking for Emperor while being lost in a maze filled with chaos taint, chaos marines and daemons. Lucky does not even begin to explain how a human could survive something like that, let alone traverse such an environment and still remain uncorrupted by chaos.

 da001 wrote:
7) Attacking the old story doesn´t make the new version any better.

I’m attacking you and other people’s attempt at glorifying a old tale that was nothing more than a propaganda story, designed to encourage billions of guardsmen worldwide to become martyrs. No matter how hard you try da001, you just can’t polish a turd (even if Mythbusters likes to claim otherwise.) And yes the last comment was meant to be taken as a joke.

I am really not sure why this whole hate-on for the idea of the Perpetuals exists.

I mean, I get that yeah it's irksome having individuals "working behind the scenes" to influence events...but isn't that really no different than the Emperor himself?

Well, how are the Perpetuals any different from the Sensei, or the Illuminati? Both of whom were written out as contributing nothing to the setting.

I still think oll is the emperors true son. And he obviously will know he has no chance of killing horus and that his spirit and body will be completely destroyed( not allowing him to be reborn). Also to the people saying perpetuals don't belong in 40k and what not, there are only 6 or 7 in the entire universe. I really don't see how there any worse the librarians or psykers.

because he is flayed alive, crushed to soup in matter of second.

That does'nt sound bad, you'd be dead before your nerves knew what happened.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I am really not sure why this whole hate-on for the idea of the Perpetuals exists.

For me at least the Perpetuals feel like something Hollywood would do in order to push characters who have 20th/21st century perspectives and points of reference into the setting - so what we end up with reads like A Connecticut Yankee in the God Emperor's Court.

Secondly, there's no need for them. I could have seen the point if the HH had been such a long conflict that mortal protagonists wouldn't have lived long enough to see it from beginning to end, but it's already been established that the Heresy took place over the course of only a few years.

Finally, as others have said, most of the main characters of the setting can't die already - because we know that many of the named traitor characters, and almost all of the primarchs, survive the Heresy. Throwing in another layer of unkillable characters on top of that only further diminishes any sense of tension, drama or real danger.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 da001 wrote:

1) He was not alone.

No? How do you know? How do you know who was on the ship and what groups they were divided into? Do you have list with the names of the people boarding Horus flagship? If so I can I see it?

 da001 wrote:

2) Teleported. The Emperor got a lot of people in the middle of a siege he was losing and send them. He couldn´t afford being picky. Also, humans were not that 'zero value' in the old background. That´s partly the reason why people do not like the change. Many human readers enjoy reading about humans doing interesting things, not just superheros doing superhero stuff.

There is a limit to how many people you can cram inside a teleporter, and given how it was a ‘do or die’ situation, chances are only the most fit warriors were picked for this duty, imperial army personal are simply not good enough.

Also you need to learn the distinction between superhuman and immortal beings. Space marine falls under the former category, while Pius belongs in the latter one.

 da001 wrote:

3) He was lucky. All loyalist knew how the Vengeful Spirit was built, yet they got lost due to the changes done by chaos. Yet a single soldier may appear at any given moment at any point in the ship. And they were all looking for the Empeor.

They were all looking for Emperor while being lost in a maze filled with chaos taint, chaos marines and daemons. Lucky does not even begin to explain how a human could survive something like that, let alone traverse such an environment and still remain uncorrupted by chaos.

 da001 wrote:
7) Attacking the old story doesn´t make the new version any better.

I’m attacking you and other people’s attempt at glorifying a old tale that was nothing more than a propaganda story, designed to encourage billions of guardsmen worldwide to become martyrs. No matter how hard you try da001, you just can’t polish a turd (even if Mythbusters likes to claim otherwise.) And yes the last comment was meant to be taken as a joke.

1) Calm down, mate, calm down.
2) If I use your logic: Citation? Do you have actual data to Standard Imperial Teleporter used by Emperor? If not, what are you talking about?
3) It does
4) Im attacking you about trying to make made up fluff to hobby model game as real world and real history...case closed, you are wrong...

 Redcruisair wrote:

 da001 wrote:

1) He was not alone.

No? How do you know?

Logic. How can you think he was alone? He was part of a strike force

Also you need to learn the distinction between superhuman and immortal beings. Space marine falls under the former category, while Pius belongs in the latter one.

You need to check the definition of "superhuman". It includes immortals. Check it up.

 da001 wrote:
7) Attacking the old story doesn´t make the new version any better.

I’m attacking you and other people’s attempt at glorifying a old tale that was nothing more than a propaganda story, designed to encourage billions of guardsmen worldwide to become martyrs.

I am aware of that. Let me quote myself:
"4) Most probably it is just an in-universe legend.
(...)
6) The full story was supposed to be something of a tale. There are many odd things, starting with the Emperor allowing his son to rip off his lungs, among other things, before reacting."

No matter how hard you try da001, you just can’t polish a turd (even if Mythbusters likes to claim otherwise.) And yes the last comment was meant to be taken as a joke.

I think it worked really well as a legend, or as a tale to encourage guardsmen. The new version IS a turd, and worth nothing. The old one was (in my opinion) in-game propaganda, but really inspiring nonetheless.

Also, the new version makes it a part of the Perpetuals´ class-A turd.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I am really not sure why this whole hate-on for the idea of the Perpetuals exists.

I mean, I get that yeah it's irksome having individuals "working behind the scenes" to influence events...but isn't that really no different than the Emperor himself?

I don´t think they are "working behind the scenes". Either they have been doing nothing for 30000 years or they have been low-level agents or assassins following someone else´s orders.

The reason I don´t like them is because I think it cheapens the epic of the setting. A few spoilers ahead.

The main problem with Perpetuals is they are yet another creation of Dan Abnett, whose writing I intensely dislike because he pretty much just runs roughshod all over canon with little if any attempt to stay within the boundaries of pre-existing background. In fact I seem to recall an audio interview where he pretty much showed his contempt for "sticking to existing background" as supposedly uncreative. However when writing within a consensual fictional universe, keeping to existing background as much as possible is part of what keeps things from degenerating into nonsense.

To break the rules one has to first know the rules and be capable of sticking to the rules. Generally I give leeway to author stretch of background and adding their own personal touch only if they can show they can keep to the existing boundaries most of the time. By contrast, I find Dan Abnett's attitude of contempt for existing background as giving himself carte blanche to spew whatever he wants for the sake of change or "plot twist", leading to such affronts as the Perpetuals or the Cabal.

ok Let's step back and examine both stories, while using a "likely to happen" POV with the HH perpetual stuff. You'll forgive me if I make a few assumptions but they have to be made (after all we're assuming Ollanius is indeed the one of legend, and BL won't pull a fast one on us and have it be some 16 year old kid who uses the guys driver's lisence to lie about his age and enlist)

Ok the inital story assumes that a mere guardsman travels up with the emperor and finds his way to Horus and the Emperor. the Emperor whom, despite Horus having killed his brother Sanguinus is apparently holding back, and it's only AFTER Horus kills a mere guardsman, (remember countless billions of guardsmen have proably died in this conflict already, thats not even including the crusade eaither. Guardsmen lives are cheap) That the Emperor realizes how far Horus has fallen and finishes him.

That's the story that's been told for awhile now, with the guy Horus kills being a guardsman, a spacemarine a custodes. stil at the end of the day you have the giant hole of "ok Horus commits Fratricide and the Emperor holds back, but he kills one of the troops and it's globes off? you gotta admit there's something a bit odd about that story. I suppose it's possiable Horus just killed them in such a terriable way but still... How come the gloves didn't come off after Sanguinus?

Now. let's assume it is indeed Ollinus is there and is the guy killed. Let us also assume for a moment that BL does want to keep the SACRIFICE there, (let's also assume he doesn't somehow lose his perpetual status before this event)
my guess is Horus kills him in a terriable soul destroying way that utterly means there's no coming back. but at the same time is such an obvious escalation of threat to the Emperor ("ohh crap if he kills me I'm not coming back!") as well as such a terriable "moral event Horizen" the Emperor realizes he MUST take the gloves off.

BrianDavion wrote:

That's the story that's been told for awhile now, with the guy Horus kills being a guardsman, a spacemarine a custodes. stil at the end of the day you have the giant hole of "ok Horus commits Fratricide and the Emperor holds back, but he kills one of the troops and it's globes off? you gotta admit there's something a bit odd about that story. I suppose it's possiable Horus just killed them in such a terriable way but still... How come the gloves didn't come off after Sanguinus?

Horus kills Ollanius, the Space Marine, or Custodes with complete overkill and gloats over it. Sanguinius by virtue of being a Primarch could still theoretically be argued to pose enough of a threat that the level of violence done to him by Horus was justifiable in the course of combat. However Horus was under no real threat from whoever interrupted him during his battle with the Emperor. Horus could have killed the interloper quickly and cleanly and I don't think that would have had any effect on the Emperor, however Horus did so in a deliberately cruel painful way that was excessive, while gloating. That behavior was what convinced the Emperor that the old Horus was gone beyond recovery.

@BrianDavion
Not sure of that. At this point Horus has:
1: Unleashed an all out civil war that has set the galaxy on fire for seven years, threatening to destroy everything the Emperor has achieved
2: Killed two of his sons, with the corpse of one of them nearby
3: Cut off the Emperor´s throat
4: Burnt his eyeballs
5: Ripped off his lungs
6: Severed one of his arms and rendered the other one useless. Then ripped off that arm too.
7: Broken his spine, as well as many bones.
8: It is even rumored that Horus made a devastating Yo Mama joke at this point that made the Emperor cry.

If he was able to destroy Horus in a single strike... why keeping the globes on? Why not blowing him up at first sight? The story as it is told doesn´t make any sense, so it needs substantial changes, that´s true.

On a second thought, your idea actually makes sense, nice theory... ... but at the cost of having the Perpetuals cheapen the whole setting. We are exchanging legendary tales of faith and demigods for unknown random powers coming out of nowhere and witty references to the current times. See my spoilers above...

 da001 wrote:
Logic. How can you think he was alone? He was part of a strike force

He needs to have been with either space marines or Custodes, if he was to stand any chance at staying living. And we know from multiple stories, both 40k and HH books, that SM and Custodes view humans with extreme contempt or indifference. No matter how fit a human is, it still cannot keep up with a space marine and precisely because of this, his companions would have left him behind early on in favor of accomplishing their mission quickly.

And before you accuse me of making gak up again (because that seems to be all your cable of doing,) I can actually provide sources of marines dismissing imperial army personal for the very reasons I just explained.

 da001 wrote:
You need to check the definition of "superhuman". It includes immortals. Check it up.

su·per·hu·man (so̅o̅′pər-hyo̅o̅′mən)
adj.
1. Above or beyond the human; preternatural or supernatural.

2. Beyond ordinary or normal human ability, power, or experience.

Superman is a superhuman. Is he also immortal? No, so try harder da001.

 da001 wrote:
I think it worked really well as a legend, or as a tale to encourage guardsmen. The new version IS a turd, and worth nothing. The old one was (in my opinion) in-game propaganda, but really inspiring nonetheless.

As a propaganda tale I like it as well, and you know what? The old tale is still alive and kicking. Just because Pius turned out to be a time traveling wizard, does not make the old legends all of sudden vanish. You and the small but very loud minority of people here on dakka crying foul about this, are actually just throwing a tantrum for no valid reason at all. So let me repeat: there is no reason to be upset.

 da001 wrote:
Also, the new version makes it a part of the Perpetuals´ class-A turd.

It’s fine if you don’t like the whole Perpetuals thing, no really it is ok. I mean it’s obvious that the HH writers got lazy and just copy pasted the highlanders into the 40k setting. However it is useful for one thing, namely explaining how Pius with the power of deus ex machina, could in the very last moment, step in between Horus and the Emperor. If Pius is not some time traveling wizard, then he has no business being on Horus flagship.

 Redcruisair wrote:
The way I see it, there are three major problems with Pius old story.

1) How did he manage to stay alive on Horus ship? Pius surviving all the horrors inside a chaos infested ship filled to the brim with mutants, chaos marines and daemons defies all logic.

2) How did he even end up in Horus ship to begin with? Why did a normal imperial army soldier accompany the Emperor and his bodyguard on such a crucial boarding mission? That on seat was better used for another superhuman warrior I say.

3) How could a normal guardsman even navigate the halls of Horus ship without some special gimmick to help him out? We are talking about a humongous ship here with enough space within it to house millions of souls.

Simple, there was no ship when Pius' story was told.

The central figure is an image of Ollanius Pius, the Guardsman who is supposed to have given his life by interposing his body between Horus and the Emperor during the assault on the Imperial Palace.

No ship, no sudden epiphany on the part of the Emperor, no Horus getting his soul smashed, this was all co-opted by Guard (Militarum?) fans from the later story of Horus and the Emperor's fight being interrupted by a Terminator.
Pius, while still heroically biting a bullet for the Emperor, was never quite what he was cracked up to be by the fans.
Having said that I still prefer his original iteration and the commonly held fan belief to this Perpetual dreck.

Da Butcha wrote:
But really? His last name was 'pious'? It's way too convenient

More convenient than Alpharius of the Alpha Legion? Or Common Raven of the Raven Guard? Or Iron Hands of the Iron Hands with his Iron Hands? Or Eldrad of the Eldar?
I don't think such names should really be held against 40k characters, least of all when "Pius" is replaced with "Oll Persson the Old Person."

 Redcruisair wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Logic. How can you think he was alone? He was part of a strike force

He needs to have been with either space marines or Custodes, if he was to stand any chance at staying living. And we know from multiple stories, both 40k and HH books, that SM and Custodes view humans with extreme contempt or indifference. No matter how fit a human is, it still cannot keep up with a space marine and precisely because of this, his companions would have left him behind early on in favor of accomplishing their mission quickly.

And before you accuse me of making gak up again (because that seems to be all your cable of doing,) I can actually provide sources of marines dismissing imperial army personal for the very reasons I just explained.

Woah, chill out, dude. Nobody is accusing you of anything.

I am actually giving you reasonings. Lots of them. You may agree with them or not, but I never said you were just inventing stuff. You said Pius was alone and I pointed out that he was supposed to be a part of a strike force. You asked how it was possible for him to survive till that point and I pointed out that, as part of a powerful fighting force... why not?

 da001 wrote:
You need to check the definition of "superhuman". It includes immortals. Check it up.

su·per·hu·man (so̅o̅′pər-hyo̅o̅′mən)
adj.
1. Above or beyond the human; preternatural or supernatural.

2. Beyond ordinary or normal human ability, power, or experience.

Superman is a superhuman. Is he also immortal? No, so try harder da001.

Being immortal is above or beyond human, a supernatural power (first definition).
Being immortal is an ability or power beyond ordinary or normal (second definition).

It seems you are claiming that we have human beings, superhuman beings, subhuman beings, abhuman beings... and then immortals. Immortals are superhumans. They fit the definition you gave (both of them).

 da001 wrote:
I think it worked really well as a legend, or as a tale to encourage guardsmen. The new version IS a turd, and worth nothing. The old one was (in my opinion) in-game propaganda, but really inspiring nonetheless.

As a propaganda tale I like it as well, and you know what? The old tale is still alive and kicking. Just because Pius turned out to be a time traveling wizard, does not make the old legends all of sudden vanish. You and the small but very loud minority of people here on dakka crying foul about this, are actually just throwing a tantrum for no valid reason at all. So let me repeat: there is no reason to be upset.

I doubt someone here is "upset" by the changes on Pius´ story. In my case, I am at most "slightly irked" about the Perpetuals thing, with Pius being related to it.
Seriously, sometimes it seems that you are upset about people disliking the new version.

And I don´t think we are a "minority". This is a fallacy I keep seeing in some posts: that the people complaining about something on a forum are a "minority". Nowadays everyone have Internet, everyone can tell the rest of the world his/her opinion about anything. If the vast majority of the people writing in forums about 40k claim that, say, the tyranid codex is bad, or that the old version of the Pius´ story was better, then it is most probable that the vast majority of the people think the same. We are a non-biased sample.

 da001 wrote:
Also, the new version makes it a part of the Perpetuals´ class-A turd.

It’s fine if you don’t like the whole Perpetuals thing, no really it is ok. I mean it’s obvious that the HH writers got lazy and just copy pasted the highlanders into the 40k setting. However it is useful for one thing, namely explaining how Pius with the power of deus ex machina, could in the very last moment, step in between Horus and the Emperor. If Pius is not some time traveling wizard, then he has no business being on Horus flagship.

Good to see we agree in something: perpetuals are a really bad idea.

Posted this on reddit, but thought I might share it here.

I view Ollanius Pius's sacrifice now as a metaphor for the death of humanity. Ollanius is the human. He is extraordinary only in the fact that he is immortal. He was no great conquerer, no famous author, no influential politician. He was just a face in the crowd, ready to lay down his life again and again for the rest of us. His name drives this home for me: Oll Persson. Oll Persson = All Person(s). He is the average human, represented as an immortal. He has fought in nearly every major conflict in our history, seen every great discovery unfold before his eyes, but never participated in them. When he talks to the Emperor outside Ur, he says as much. He doesn't want to shape the world, he just wants to live a quiet life. And he gives up his life for what he believes in. Remember what the Cabal said would happen if the Emperor won? Humanity would die a slow death for 10000 years. Because Oll sacrificed himself, that future is the one the Imperium is heading towards. The death of Oll Persson will result in the deaths of All Persons.

On another level, his death represents the end of humanity as we know it. When he, Malcador, and the Emperor are killed (or close enough to it), everything is lost. Have you heard the saying "You never die until your name is spoken again for the last time."? Oll, Malcador, and the Emperor are the only people who know "your name". Everything that we have fought for, every life that has been lost in every war, every sacrifice we have made, is now meaningless. The only people who could tell you about it are dead or entombed on a Golden Throne. Civil Rights Movement? Never heard of it. Crusades? No one remembers. The Renaissance? Every painting and innovation is gone. Christianity? Oll was the last believer. "Forget the power of power and technology, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future..." This sentence became true the moment Oll stepped between Horus and the Emperor. If he hadn't died, a small memory of our times would have lingered on. Someone would know what we were once like, and how far our species has fallen.

With Oll's sacrifice, we are irreversibly trapped in the grim darkness, even though he did it for the noblest of reasons. Even if the Imperium does win against all odds, beating back the Orks, Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, and Eldar, we will never be able to get back to where we once were.

A good point I see in a bunch of posts here is that Oll stood up for what was right even though he knew there was absolutely no way he could ever hope to stop Horus. That still exists here. Oll is just a really long-lived human. He doesn't have vast psychic powers, he doesn't have a Primarch killing weapon in his pocket. His immortality wouldn't help him fight Horus unless the fate of the galaxy was decided by a game of Ancient History Trivial Pursuit.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on Oll Persson. The both versions of Oll have their merits, but I prefer this interpretation, because Oll's death is more than just an ordinary human standing up for what is right. It is the human, humanity, represented by a single man, giving up everything we ever fought for or believed in, so that the God Emperor could survive.

On another note, if Oll's reaction to getting hunted by a daemon is anything to go by, he is most likely as dead as Horus, or is being tortured by the Chaos Gods for all of eternity. Whichever you prefer.

Da Butcha wrote:
I have to admit, I'm weirded out that so many people read the 'classic' Ollanius Pius story as a real depiction of events.

I mean, I love that story. It is the sort of perfect fable that makes 40k seem real. I could definitely see ex-guardsmen telling that story to their kids. I could see the mothers of guardsmen embroidering it and hanging it on the wall. It seems like a real folk belief, just from a made-up universe.

But really? His last name was 'pious'? It's way too convenient to not be propaganda for the Imperial Cult. I always read it as a fable about the battle between Horus and the Emperor, and, though I assumed that lots of people in the Imperium thought that it was true, I never thought that we were supposed to believe it was true in the 'game universe'. It didn't even occur to be to think that it was an actual story of what actually happened.

I guess that's why it doesn't bother me to have a different version of events told within the HH series. The 'classic' Ollanius Pius was what devout Imperial citizens believed, and it is what devout Imperial citizens believed. Just now, behind that inspiring legend, we have 'what really happened', which almost none of them will ever know. I mean, 40K has a long history of Imperial Saints where the 'saint' and the 'actual person' are fairly divergent (or in which the ignoble origins or ending of the saint are overlooked).

Of course, I'm not claiming that my way of thinking about it was right. I'm just surprised that a story about a pious guardsman who stood up to impossible odds, named PIUS, didn't strike more people as a morality play or religious propaganda instead of war journalism. I mean, if the US announced they had caught a terrorist named Alvin Freedomhater, would most people just gloss over the surname?

I prefer the folk-legend interpretation too, but is Pius not a corruption of his actual name? Like, a name granted to him after he became a saint? Also, 40k is definitely, definitely not the setting to start having problems with puntastic names. If you're okay accepting that Angron is the actual name of the really angry guy, Pius is a pretty easy pill to swallow.

It would be most appropriate if he was a guy that never existed. Somehow, what Sanguinious and maybe some of the Emper's bodyguards did got attributed to him.

What stirs me most is why has people problem with the original story. Jesus, its not important for fluff, its even not important to the IG (and Im saying it as IG junkie), its just awesome fluffy story which in truth doesnt diminish anything and anybody.

But still, some people are getting into blind rage because it this and that But story like this gave WH40K unique flavor, much more specific, original, than current Khaldor Draigo idiocy and another Mayry Sue clichés. Or Perpetuals with Lost-like Vulkan twists (like...seriously?)