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Okay so I dont know if this has been discussed to death before, but what I don't understand is how GW can keep up this accelerated release schedule.

Are they really getting enough sales for all the new products they are releasing to still be making a profit? Lets be honest here. A couple years ago, GW was only putting out 25% of the stuff they are now on a monthly average. This means that their current production and distribution costs are 4 times as high as they used to be back in the day. Without 4 times as many purchases being made by people, they are only burning holes into their monetary assets.

So how can a company keep going strong when - honestly - it is offering more stuff right now than the wallet of an average consumer can afford? And I highly doubt that the worldwide GW fanbase has quadrupled since the arrival of 6th edition.

Is it just a matter of time till this company goes bankrupt (near future)?

Or have they been sitting on a mountain of profits for all these years and have now decided to give back something to the community?

I don't think we will realy find out unless they slow it down(or keep it going), or fail completely. But I know players around me don't keep up. A lot not even knowing about things until after they are out :0

The thing that might play into this if the player base is putting money they would normally put into other game systems into keeping up with the GW release scedule. Kind of like smothering the competition.
That being said, is there an accelerated release scedule in models? I havn't really been paying much attention.

there aren't 4 times as many models. Most of the releases are poorly tested, hardly changed codex and datasheets.

A lot of the new models are small changes to the existing models. That just means throwing some stuff on an already finished 3d model. Look at the Hydra/wyvern or Stalker/Hunter

And as to the completely new models (because of course there are some, and they are very high quality) the introduction of everything being 3d modeled on a computer rather than being molded has made production of new models significantly faster and cheaper.

No, I think the 4x calculation is WAY off the mark.

Its desperation after that last yearly report, they think producing more stuff will generate more profits but they are not fixing the core issues:

1) Kits cost too much and alot of people are refusing to pay retail prices for them.

2) Rules are a mess and you have to fork over £30 a time for super thin books that are mostly pictures.

3) They have alienated their players to the point they have left to play other games.

4) they have no good faith with people, they dont advertise and the players and sellers that used to get people into the game are now warning them away due to the price.

hobojebus wrote:
Its desperation after that last yearly report, they think producing more stuff will generate more profits but they are not fixing the core issues:

1) Kits cost too much and alot of people are refusing to pay retail prices for them.

2) Rules are a mess and you have to fork over £30 a time for super thin books that are mostly pictures.

3) They have alienated their players to the point they have left to play other games.

4) they have no good faith with people, they dont advertise and the players and sellers that used to get people into the game are now warning them away due to the price.

As I said in another thread, these complaints have been said with the same passion and frequency thoughout the years since I started playing this game in 1989, especially the alienated player and price comments. GW still seems to be plugging along for the past 25 years, so somebody is definitely buying the product and keeping them going.

Relapse wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Its desperation after that last yearly report, they think producing more stuff will generate more profits but they are not fixing the core issues:

1) Kits cost too much and alot of people are refusing to pay retail prices for them.

2) Rules are a mess and you have to fork over £30 a time for super thin books that are mostly pictures.

3) They have alienated their players to the point they have left to play other games.

4) they have no good faith with people, they dont advertise and the players and sellers that used to get people into the game are now warning them away due to the price.

As I said in another thread, these complaints have been said with the same passion and frequency thoughout the years since I started playing this game in 1989, especially the alienated player and price comments. GW still seems to be plugging along for the past 25 years, so somebody is definitely buying the product and keeping them going.

That doesn't make the complaints any less valid...

In fact, that reasoning seems to be GW's line of BS too - well people have complained for 25 years and we're still here, so everyone complaining can safely be ignored.

I don't know about you but I've played since 2nd and have seen GW slowly decline and turn hostile to the people that helped build it up. That doesn't sound like a company that is going ot stay successful forever, and ignoring the problems because they don't affect you right now is a surefire way to seal your fate. Have you ever watched Kitchen Nightmares? How many of those restaurants had been around for years but still doing everything wrong? I recall a few that had been in business like 10 or more years, so therefore felt they "had to be doing something right" even when they weren't. Eventually, it catches up to you.

GW is going to end up the same way.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Relapse wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Its desperation after that last yearly report, they think producing more stuff will generate more profits but they are not fixing the core issues:

1) Kits cost too much and alot of people are refusing to pay retail prices for them.

2) Rules are a mess and you have to fork over £30 a time for super thin books that are mostly pictures.

3) They have alienated their players to the point they have left to play other games.

4) they have no good faith with people, they dont advertise and the players and sellers that used to get people into the game are now warning them away due to the price.

As I said in another thread, these complaints have been said with the same passion and frequency thoughout the years since I started playing this game in 1989, especially the alienated player and price comments. GW still seems to be plugging along for the past 25 years, so somebody is definitely buying the product and keeping them going.

That doesn't make the complaints any less valid...

But it shows that there seem to be a sizable margin of people with differing opinions. Enought to keep GW confotably going as, I believe, the largest selling game company of it's type out there.

I don't think they are releasing Miniatures that much faster....

Remember things like the Dark Eldar or Necrons release.

There was only one Codex, but buckets of miniatures. For Dark Eldar alone, there were Wyches, Warriors, Incubi, Mandrakes, Archon, Lelith, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques, Ravagers, Reavers, Hellions, Scourges, Razor-jet-thingy, LE Portal, and a crapton of other stuff I probably forgot.

It just came in waves and waves. The difference was, it was only one Codex book (black-and-white, soft-bound, cheap too).

Now the same amount of miniature releases comes with 4 or 5 Codexes, Codex-supplements, dataslates, whathaveyou... but books are cheap (especially if you edit them as poorly as GW does these days) and the logistics of the miniatures aren't that different.

If GW managed to sell more of the (more or less same amount of released) miniature by throwing out more random over-priced paper with the word "Codex" printed on the outside, that can only be a good thing for them (from a short-term financial perspective).

If Zwei and I agree on something then you can take it to the bank, but he has the right of it, the release rate of items that require significant material investment is no higher, just more diffuse.

Also, I'll add that their turnover is massive, so while they aren't making as much profit as they were at this moment, the cash is still coming in all the time, which means they can keep paying the bills. There production costs are only a fifth (roughly) of their sale costs, so there is plenty of 'spare' cash from each sale. (A very simple view, but makes the point)

WayneTheGame wrote:

Relapse wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Its desperation after that last yearly report, they think producing more stuff will generate more profits but they are not fixing the core issues:

1) Kits cost too much and alot of people are refusing to pay retail prices for them.

2) Rules are a mess and you have to fork over £30 a time for super thin books that are mostly pictures.

3) They have alienated their players to the point they have left to play other games.

4) they have no good faith with people, they dont advertise and the players and sellers that used to get people into the game are now warning them away due to the price.

As I said in another thread, these complaints have been said with the same passion and frequency thoughout the years since I started playing this game in 1989, especially the alienated player and price comments. GW still seems to be plugging along for the past 25 years, so somebody is definitely buying the product and keeping them going.

That doesn't make the complaints any less valid...

GW can't keep players past a couple years. The game has always been marketed toward the younger crowd. It's all new players. If you never knew that you could pick up a full squad of Space Marines for $14.95, then you wouldn't even bat an eyelash for paying $40 for that exact same set now. So you pay $160 for four Space Marine Tactical Squads 'cuz that's about how many you will need, and you play the game for a couple years. Then you decide you want to start a new Space Marine army, and you suddenly discover that the squad you bought for $40 a couple years ago is now going for $60, and you suddenly go "wait a minute..." You either suck it up (a few do), or you quit playing (most do). Now a brand new player to the game? He has never seen Space Marines cheaper then $60, so he very happily gets into the game paying $240 for four Tactical Squads, then in a couple year decides to try a new Space Marine army, and finds out the Space Marines have jumped up to $80, and he goes "wait a minute..."

When I look at all the guys that I started playing 40K with back in 1997, I'm the only one still playing. Guess I haven't had my "wait a minute..." moment yet.

That's what's been happening for the last 25 years. There will be a breaking point- and this accelerated release schedule will bring it faster.

There may or may not be a breaking point...People could still play with their old models if they wanted to, for the most part at least. And even if that happens where you are, it doesn't mean that is what happens everywhere. There will always be naysayers. Always. It is the gift of the internet.

 Tamwulf wrote:

GW can't keep players past a couple years.

There's a lot of truth in this I think.

I started playing 40K just before the great 'lead sale' and that was how I afforded my Space Marine army at the time - £20 for a set of tactical marines was really, really expensive for me then and I only bought one such boxed set. When they brought out the new multi-pose plastic Marines in 3rd I must have bought ten boxes but they started at £10 for ten Marines...

The last kit I bought from Games Workshop, when it had just been released and I couldn't resist, was the Maulerfiend. I haven't bought anything since as the kits are far beyond my disposable income budget. That, and the fact I can never get what I want at a GW shop, which requires a special trip for me to get to. For instance, I have missed out on this weeks White Dwarf Weekly as my FLGS had sold out on Monday and, making a special trip to GW on the Tuesday found the shop shut! I could see through the window that they had shelves of WD Weekly though... I have no means by which to download or view GW's digital books so I can't buy them even if I do want them (I'd have got the Sisters of Battle Codex if it were not for that problem) and even thought I really like the hardback codexes I can only afford them once or twice a year as my books budget is generally spent on novels and since I only get codexes and the like for the background I can wait for them.

A lot of what Games Workshop puts out in terms of books is a big copy/paste job with a few new pages added on top. Its not that expensive to produce these books especially if they are digital only. Even if they are printed it is still not that pricey for a company their size. Despite what the price tag says it does not cost nearly that much to produce a codex. Id wager its probably a fifth of the asking price maybe less.

No, what really costs Gee Dubs money are the models. They are relatively expensive to produce, ship and stock. Notice how we arent getting all that many new models with each release.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A lot of what Games Workshop puts out in terms of books is a big copy/paste job with a few new pages added on top. Its not that expensive to produce these books especially if they are digital only. Even if they are printed it is still not that pricey for a company their size. Despite what the price tag says it does not cost nearly that much to produce a codex. Id wager its probably a fifth of the asking price maybe less.

No, what really costs Gee Dubs money are the models. They are relatively expensive to produce, ship and stock. Notice how we arent getting all that many new models with each release.

The models, and all those stores they operate. What other miniatures company has its own line of stores? GW likely has more personnel than all other wargaming miniature companies in the world combined. That costs them a lot of money.

But another question I want to ask: Do we really need a thread criticising GW yet again? Please there is more than enough existing threads.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A lot of what Games Workshop puts out in terms of books is a big copy/paste job with a few new pages added on top. Its not that expensive to produce these books especially if they are digital only. Even if they are printed it is still not that pricey for a company their size. Despite what the price tag says it does not cost nearly that much to produce a codex. Id wager its probably a fifth of the asking price maybe less.

No, what really costs Gee Dubs money are the models. They are relatively expensive to produce, ship and stock. Notice how we arent getting all that many new models with each release.

The models, and all those stores they operate. What other miniatures company has its own line of stores? GW likely has more personnel than all other wargaming miniature companies in the world combined. That costs them a lot of money.

But another question I want to ask: Do we really need a thread criticising GW yet again? Please there is more than enough existing threads.

Twas ever thus, bro.

Sir Arun wrote: A couple years ago, GW was only putting out 25% of the stuff they are now on a monthly average. This means that their current production and distribution costs are 4 times as high as they used to be back in the day.

That's a very, very dangerous assumption to make.

Not all things are as expensive to produce as others. Coming out with a new plastic kit involves paying designers, mould-makers, and plastic injection machines. And the plastic itself. And the packaging, and distribution. There's a lot of work that takes you from an idea to a multi-part plastic kit in your hands. Meanwhile, to create an e-book, you just need to sit someone down at a desk and have them write for an afternoon or two and then make a .pdf of the output and throw it up on the Apple Store.

And that's important. They came out with supplements for iyanden, and black legion, and crimson slaughter, and how many new models were released for them? None. Same with apocalypse and escalation.

It's also a dangerous assumption because of time. How do you know that something takes exactly the same amount of money to produce as it used go? 10 years ago, everything was sculpted with plasticard and greenstuff. Now, everything is quick thrown together with auto-CAD and everything after is taken care of automatically with robots and lasers.

My guess is that they're making more stuff for cheaper, for higher prices. All of which leads to more profits. If your question then is how long can GW afford to increase profits, well, the answer is forever, in theory.

An interesting thing to look at when the next report lands will be the "cost of sales."

This is the amount of money GW have spent on making what they have sold, and it includes all costs from design through production to getting it ready for sale . In the most recent report, which run up to early Dec 13, it was ~22%.

The next report will incorporate, theoretically at least, a larger number of digital sales, and all the weekly vs monthly schedule releases so far, so the cost of sales as a percentage of turnover will be telling, regardless of overall performance, as to whether Ailaros is correct.

I suppose the other thing to look at too is revenue. If the rate at which it is getting cheaper for them to produce is less than the rate at which they're pushing fewer units adjusted for the higher price, then it could both get cheaper for them to produce stuff AND they'd be losing money.

It may be cheaper to use slave labor than unionized labor to produce buggy whips and vacuum tubes, but that doesn't mean you can make a successful business trying to sell either.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A lot of what Games Workshop puts out in terms of books is a big copy/paste job with a few new pages added on top. Its not that expensive to produce these books especially if they are digital only. Even if they are printed it is still not that pricey for a company their size. Despite what the price tag says it does not cost nearly that much to produce a codex. Id wager its probably a fifth of the asking price maybe less.

No, what really costs Gee Dubs money are the models. They are relatively expensive to produce, ship and stock. Notice how we arent getting all that many new models with each release.

The models, and all those stores they operate. What other miniatures company has its own line of stores? GW likely has more personnel than all other wargaming miniature companies in the world combined. That costs them a lot of money.

But another question I want to ask: Do we really need a thread criticising GW yet again? Please there is more than enough existing threads.

I was speaking in terms of their releases but that is true as well. I can understand why they operate the stores but they seem like a money sink since they dont support the hobby properly.

The shops are basically the only marketing that GW does.

The only other type of promotion is word of mouth from veterans, which is independent and free. It's difficult to know how well that is working for GW nowadays.

 Purifier wrote:
there aren't 4 times as many models. Most of the releases are poorly tested, hardly changed codex and datasheets.
(...)

^This.

They have accelerated the making of the rules. Only that.

But most of the new releases are 95% copy paste of something already done. Play testing and even basic proof reading are minimal. No FAQs. And the prices have multiplied. A one-model Codex for how much?

I cannot imagine a "Dark Eldar" release equivalent nowadays, with lots of great, groundbreaking models and well thought, balanced rules. I hope I am wrong.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A lot of what Games Workshop puts out in terms of books is a big copy/paste job with a few new pages added on top. Its not that expensive to produce these books especially if they are digital only. Even if they are printed it is still not that pricey for a company their size. Despite what the price tag says it does not cost nearly that much to produce a codex. Id wager its probably a fifth of the asking price maybe less.

No, what really costs Gee Dubs money are the models. They are relatively expensive to produce, ship and stock. Notice how we arent getting all that many new models with each release.

The models, and all those stores they operate. What other miniatures company has its own line of stores? GW likely has more personnel than all other wargaming miniature companies in the world combined. That costs them a lot of money.

But another question I want to ask: Do we really need a thread criticising GW yet again? Please there is more than enough existing threads.

I think you're being too sensitive. This isn't so much criticising GW as asking a perfectly valid question which invites responses. The question is predicated on two things essentially, in the face of falling revenue (fact, not opinion) is it a good idea for GW to be spending more on making a larger number of products for release (not exactly fact, but a reasonable and logical extrapolation?)

There's no criticism here other than those that think it isn't a great idea. If you've or anyone else has got a suggestion as to why it is a good idea, by all means put it forward and balance the discussion out. If you're seeing none of that, it's fair to say that most people don't think its a good idea.

Not really sure exactly why it needs to be in 40K discussion mind, GW isn't just 40K. Yet, anyways.

Isn't GW adopting the model of, and hence the fate of, Infinity Ward, It seems to me that they are attempting to compete against that product, sort of???

 jasper76 wrote:
Isn't GW adopting the model of, and hence the fate of, Infinity Ward, It seems to me that they are attempting to compete against that product, sort of???

One could certainly make the argument that, rather than diversifying and giving people like me other things to spend cash on once they've got all they want for 40K, they're trying harder and harder to railroad people into buying more and more stuff.

The issue being, customers don't generally like being sold stuff they don't want to buy. I've said before, I'm happy at two 40K factions, and I'll keep them maintained as new releases occur etc, but I categorically will NOT be buying another faction for a variety of reasons outside the remit of the thread. If, however, they were to be putting the energy and investment into revitalising BFG, Blood Bowl, Necormunda, Mordheim or One of the two Fantasy factions I'd consider collecting (and getting the player base excited for WHFB in general) I'd have a lot more things if want to buy, and fewer reasons not to.

The price of a codex has doubled, just because it has a hard cover. It is not difficult to see how GW can afford to produce codex books.

GW? Go out of business? With what we're paying for miniatures?

 azreal13 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Isn't GW adopting the model of, and hence the fate of, Infinity Ward, It seems to me that they are attempting to compete against that product, sort of???

One could certainly make the argument that, rather than diversifying and giving people like me other things to spend cash on once they've got all they want for 40K, they're trying harder and harder to railroad people into buying more and more stuff.

The issue being, customers don't generally like being sold stuff they don't want to buy. I've said before, I'm happy at two 40K factions, and I'll keep them maintained as new releases occur etc, but I categorically will NOT be buying another faction for a variety of reasons outside the remit of the thread. If, however, they were to be putting the energy and investment into revitalizing BFG, Blood Bowl, Necormunda, Mordheim or One of the two Fantasy factions I'd consider collecting (and getting the player base excited for WHFB in general) I'd have a lot more things if want to buy, and fewer reasons not to.

Yeah, I hear you. I am building a KOSM army, and so much of that is in finecats for mediocre models with better base-metal builds. Now if Wanted to build the mutant squads I would just convert them out of the cheapest metla termies, and bits i got over the years, The air support is something I lack, and I wonder if its worth investing in, because everybody is prepared for heldrakes these days, but everyone swears up and down on them.

 jasper76 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Isn't GW adopting the model of, and hence the fate of, Infinity Ward, It seems to me that they are attempting to compete against that product, sort of???

One could certainly make the argument that, rather than diversifying and giving people like me other things to spend cash on once they've got all they want for 40K, they're trying harder and harder to railroad people into buying more and more stuff.

The issue being, customers don't generally like being sold stuff they don't want to buy. I've said before, I'm happy at two 40K factions, and I'll keep them maintained as new releases occur etc, but I categorically will NOT be buying another faction for a variety of reasons outside the remit of the thread. If, however, they were to be putting the energy and investment into revitalizing BFG, Blood Bowl, Necormunda, Mordheim or One of the two Fantasy factions I'd consider collecting (and getting the player base excited for WHFB in general) I'd have a lot more things if want to buy, and fewer reasons not to.

Yeah, I hear you. I am building a KOSM army, and so much of that is in finecats for mediocre models with better base-metal builds. Now if Wanted to build the mutant squads I would just convert them out of the cheapest metla termies, and bits i got over the years, The air support is something I lack, and I wonder if its worth investing in, because everybody is prepared for heldrakes these days, but everyone swears up and down on them.

What they swear by is taking 3, taking 1 isn't bad but taking 3 is kinda a dick move between vector strike and 360 ap 3 flamers not alot of armies can take two turns of that.

Time to out myself.

I really like the Heldrake!

Not a fan of the fiends, but I would acquire an HQ and small troop CSM unit to justify including one as allies to my Daemons, just for the model (plus I think it fits better aesthetically if you've got daemons alongside it.) this is bleeding over from some of the other discussions going on here right now, but knowing how hard to deal with they are, I'd never field more than one, even though I'd like to from a painting and modelling POV.