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I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Cyten wrote:

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Truly says something about the might of the Space Marines, if they are fewer than Baneblades and still instrumental to the Imperium's survival.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

 Ashiraya wrote:

Cyten wrote:

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Truly says something about the might of the Space Marines, if they are fewer than Baneblades and still instrumental to the Imperium's survival.

Except they're not instrumental

Space Marines' niche is that they're the only force that can give a rapid response to things without having to go through a ton of red tape first. Whether or not that's instrumental, I dunno, but no fluff source ever implied it wasn't.

Yes I think they could. Proof:

Solar Macharious. The man led a mostly imperial guard crusade for 7 years that brought 1000 worlds back to the Imperium.

Yes, there were some marines in the crusade but their numbers were minuscule.

A regular man, with great ideas and a sharp mind led an entire armada of regular humans on a crusade that was so successful it is compared to the original creation of the imperium.

The Imperial Guard/Navy/ Titan Legions can maintain the imperium of man without the Space Marines. Storm Troopers would probably have to take over thier roles, but with the release of materials, more storm troopers could equipped, rapid response fleets could be created. It would be different, but possible.

Sure, it may end up smaller, but they could keep the IoM alive.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Cyten wrote:

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Truly says something about the might of the Space Marines, if they are fewer than Baneblades and still instrumental to the Imperium's survival.

Except they're not instrumental

Huh, how strange, because my 6th ed rulebook here says differently.

I wonder who I shall believe, an IG player on a forum or an official GW publication?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Comrade wrote:

A regular man, with great ideas and a sharp mind led an entire armada of regular humans on a crusade that was so successful it is compared to the original creation of the imperium.

To my knowledge, the current Imperium consists of a million worlds. Most of these were conquered during the Great Crusade.

A thousand worlds is impressive but nowhere near that number.

 Comrade wrote:

The Imperial Guard/Navy/ Titan Legions can maintain the imperium of man without the Space Marines. Storm Troopers would probably have to take over thier roles, but with the release of materials, more storm troopers could equipped, rapid response fleets could be created. It would be different, but possible.

You don't know the numbers behind how many "materials" would be released if Space Marines were no longer funded. You don't know the exact expense of them either. In addition, there are several benefits that Space Marines have that storm troopers never could, such as much much longer life spans, less need to eat or drink, better regeneration abilities and less susceptibility to sickness, the ability to go for long periods without sleeping, etc etc etc.

Space Marines are expensive per marine, but one marine lasts a much longer time than one storm trooper on average, in addition to the other benefits. However, because we do not have exact numbers behind either the expense or the benefit (and I doubt GW is going to have the Imperium's accountants show us the Imperium's fiscal year financial statements any time soon), any statement regarding their "release of materials" allowing storm troopers to pick up their role is EXTREMELY speculative at best.

Less need to eat/drink/sleep is taken care of by the armor of the Marines, going by the new ST fluff, their mask have the same function, and they can go a long time without sleeping, they can also operate in the void and survive atmospherical entry (what? no yes really and without a drop at that)

A certain planet also breeds ST that are just about immune to most diseases and are more often than not sent out to deal with Nurgle stuff.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Less need to eat/drink/sleep is taken care of by the armor of the Marines, going by the new ST fluff, their mask have the same function, and they can go a long time without sleeping, they can also operate in the void and survive atmospherical entry (what? no yes really and without a drop at that)

A certain planet also breeds ST that are just about immune to most diseases and are more often than not sent out to deal with Nurgle stuff.

Man who can't survive being dropped from orbit these days?

It's like everyone in fiction is deciding that the best way to show you're a badass is to fall out of the sky and step out of your crater.

Fall out of space in this case, I cringed a little when I read that part, to be honest.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Fall out of space in this case, I cringed a little when I read that part, to be honest.

Idea: Drop Scions and their gear from orbit to both bombard the enemy with kinetic kill vehicles and deep striked soldiers.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

False. Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known. And there is nothing tainted about the Iron Men STC, it is the individual iron men who grew, over thousands of years, mind you, to hate humans. A new-built iron man with no experiences would have no reason to hate humans. How a design is ultimately used has no impact on its blueprint... which should be obvious.

Also, you realise STCs and Iron Men are different, yes? An STC would give you all the benefits of an iron man, without any of the potiential drawbacks. That's why finding a complete STC is the ultimate goal of the mechanicus, and dozens of Space Marine chapters. Considering every human planet and fleet had multiple thousands of STCs during the DAOT, finding a functional one is just a matter of time.

Once the Mentor Legion or Mechanicus or Explorators have recovered it, it's game over for Chaos Space Marines, Tau, and Nids. Necrons will still have better tech and Orks will always be around, but CSM, Tyranids, and Tau are history.

 Silverthorne wrote:

Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known.

Source?

I thought all AI were banned because they were bound to rebel against their creators.

Please elaborate

As a Black Templars player it pains me to say it, but I feel the main selling point of the Adeptus Astartes is the fact that their Librarians are obscenely powerful while not being as unstable as Sanctioned Psykers. A single of the more powerful Psykers (say Mephiston, Tigurius or, for the lulz, Draigo) can turn a war all on his own, and that sort of power just isn't possible for the Imperium to reproduce at will. I realize that there's a bunch of horrifically powerful A++ psykers out there that aren't Astartes, but like a light bulb on too much power they tend to burn out rather quickly.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

False. Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known. And there is nothing tainted about the Iron Men STC, it is the individual iron men who grew, over thousands of years, mind you, to hate humans. A new-built iron man with no experiences would have no reason to hate humans. How a design is ultimately used has no impact on its blueprint... which should be obvious.

Also, you realise STCs and Iron Men are different, yes? An STC would give you all the benefits of an iron man, without any of the potiential drawbacks. That's why finding a complete STC is the ultimate goal of the mechanicus, and dozens of Space Marine chapters. Considering every human planet and fleet had multiple thousands of STCs during the DAOT, finding a functional one is just a matter of time.

Once the Mentor Legion or Mechanicus or Explorators have recovered it, it's game over for Chaos Space Marines, Tau, and Nids. Necrons will still have better tech and Orks will always be around, but CSM, Tyranids, and Tau are history.

What?

The Tyranids outnumber everyone in the galaxy by a big margin, with Hive Fleet Leviathan in all of it's apocalyptic fury being at most, a tiny portion of the whole.

Much like how the awakened Necrons are only the tip of the Iceberg, the galaxy ain't seen nothing yet as far as the Tyranids are concerned.

Everyone who cares believes that if the galaxy isn't united under some cause that the Tyranids are going to sweep away this galaxy like the last thousand or so (sometimes it's just a dozen, other times it's "thousands", a swam that has stripped "thousands" of galaxies seems more in keeping with the theme that these are the end of days, so I prefer that interpretation) in an endless, ever adapting, and perfectly united tide of teeth and claws.

The main mass of Tyranids scared Szarekh to death when he encountered them, and Szarekh went through the whole of the war in heaven in all of it's solar system crushing, galaxy disrupting, warp fouling madness that made the Horus Heresy look like a slap fight between five year olds.

For the Imperium to survive it'd need the Emperor and the lost Primarchs to come back, complete and pure STCs to be found, an end to the Imperium and Craftworld Eldar's slapfights so the two can actually focus on the important enemies, and then shifting the whole of the Imperium to a total war footing.

And even then the chances of survival are merely desperate rather than "go down in a blaze of glory."

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

False. Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known. And there is nothing tainted about the Iron Men STC, it is the individual iron men who grew, over thousands of years, mind you, to hate humans. A new-built iron man with no experiences would have no reason to hate humans. How a design is ultimately used has no impact on its blueprint... which should be obvious.

Also, you realise STCs and Iron Men are different, yes? An STC would give you all the benefits of an iron man, without any of the potiential drawbacks. That's why finding a complete STC is the ultimate goal of the mechanicus, and dozens of Space Marine chapters. Considering every human planet and fleet had multiple thousands of STCs during the DAOT, finding a functional one is just a matter of time.

Once the Mentor Legion or Mechanicus or Explorators have recovered it, it's game over for Chaos Space Marines, Tau, and Nids. Necrons will still have better tech and Orks will always be around, but CSM, Tyranids, and Tau are history.

There were plenty of STCs, not all of which were universe-changing. The comparatively humble Rhino is an example. A new find like that, while certainly welcome, would not be enough to make any real difference.

In addition, if we are talking about the greater STCs, it is doubtful that it would end the CSM (They have a very safe place to retreat to if necessary, and not even godmode STCs will save you in the Warp) or the Tyranids (Who, if they are as numerous as it is implied, will wreck the Imperium, godmode STC or no) but the Tau will definitely have major problems.

Edit: What Kain said.

The Imperium's problems are not just limited to the big four (Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks) but also new and potent xenos are crawling out of the woodworks like sharks who smell blood, while xenos who used to either be kept in check are now getting bolder and more aggressive.

The first is exemplified by things like the Tau, Rak'Gol, Slaugth, and Qu'orl, while the latter is typified by the likes of the Fra'al, Thyrrus, and Hrud.

Minor xenos empires are springing up and carving out chunks of the Imperium as they start their own expansions and for each one the Imperium can crush, it seems that another gets into a position where it can enjoy a state of "not worth it" like the Tau.

And they won't stop coming.