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 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Out of curiosity, what is the cheapest strength D large blast template?

the eldar lynx gets a single, as does one of the imp guard tanks. thunderhawk CAN have one but... not as cheap as the other options
the warhound gets 4, reaver 8, revenant gets a few but some other nice survivability rules.. uuummmmmm that covers some of the bigger options,

So what 400 points, 500 points, 550?

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.

If someone brings a Revenant Titan to a game without any sort of warning, like, "Hey I might bring a Lord of War," or something similar, then in the current environment, what he is doing is worse than me bringing my beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game.

That individual is essentially asking you to be a punching bag for 5-7 rounds so he can play with his big toy. So I don't think refusing to play is in any way or form unreasonable.

Can't comment on that one man, I know nothing about the revenant.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.

Ok, how about I instead of asking him to play a more reasonable list I just immediately surrender and say "congratulations, you win, was that fun?"

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
So what 400 points, 500 points, 550?

500 ish for a single template.. pay more get more up to anything like 1700 points

So 500 points to kill one tank possibly 3-4 infantry models a turn if your opponent has any competence what so ever... And it can be one turned by deep striking melts, emp/haywire grenades, monstrous creatures, or a serious lance or lascannon barrage? Seems like a rip off to me considering an average accuracy of slightly less than 1/2...

And its a BS3 if i remember right.. yay IG

as iv said most are bad, some though are amazing points value for around 50% more you get more killy... but still 2 targets a turn... so not amazing but better...

still its new and people are afraid of them, like heldrakes people will get over them with 6months or so..

Not all D-weapons are utterly ridiculous, but some of them flat out ruin the game. Like the Revenant or the C'tan.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
So 500 points to kill one tank possibly 3-4 infantry models a turn if your opponent has any competence what so ever... And it can be one turned by deep striking melts, emp/haywire grenades, monstrous creatures, or a serious lance or lascannon barrage? Seems like a rip off to me considering an average accuracy of slightly less than 1/2...

People are mostly scared of stuff like the Revenant Titan, with holo-shields, 36" movement and the ability to delete any two of your units on the board every turn.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.

Curious here. So someone should play a game with someone that has "crap unblanced rules that make the game unenjoyable." to not be a jerk?
This is about tournaments though. I don't think they will adapt escalation or stonghold any time soon unless they make some major changes to them I just don't think they would attract as many players if they did. I could be way off but when our local monthly tourney allowed everything only a couple people showed up. Another store is doing a everything goes 2000 point league I am curious to see how that does it has a pretty steep buy in though so that might factor in.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
So 500 points to kill one tank possibly 3-4 infantry models a turn if your opponent has any competence what so ever... And it can be one turned by deep striking melts, emp/haywire grenades, monstrous creatures, or a serious lance or lascannon barrage? Seems like a rip off to me considering an average accuracy of slightly less than 1/2...

People are mostly scared of stuff like the Revenant Titan, with holo-shields, 36" movement and the ability to delete any two of your units on the board every turn.

QFT

it and the reaver are the 2 big bad boys, though the revenant is way cheaper..... then those as examples are wielded as though they are the norm for all SHV, and yeah thats where problems arise because the masses then think they are all like that, and ALL get banned.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Out of curiosity, what is the cheapest strength D large blast template?

An orkish kill-bursta tank can be bought for 400. It fires a single 7" destroyer blast at 36".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
So 500 points to kill one tank possibly 3-4 infantry models a turn if your opponent has any competence what so ever... And it can be one turned by deep striking melts, emp/haywire grenades, monstrous creatures, or a serious lance or lascannon barrage? Seems like a rip off to me considering an average accuracy of slightly less than 1/2...

People are mostly scared of stuff like the Revenant Titan, with holo-shields, 36" movement and the ability to delete any two of your units on the board every turn.

Apparently the "weak" warhound is enough to break the game.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/03/escalation-tournament-report-this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/

There also is another tournament report on that blog about a player having just one turbo-laser on his warhound because of WYSIWYG, with the same result.

 Jidmah wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Out of curiosity, what is the cheapest strength D large blast template?

An orkish kill-bursta tank can be bought for 400. It fires a single 7" destroyer blast at 36".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
So 500 points to kill one tank possibly 3-4 infantry models a turn if your opponent has any competence what so ever... And it can be one turned by deep striking melts, emp/haywire grenades, monstrous creatures, or a serious lance or lascannon barrage? Seems like a rip off to me considering an average accuracy of slightly less than 1/2...

People are mostly scared of stuff like the Revenant Titan, with holo-shields, 36" movement and the ability to delete any two of your units on the board every turn.

Apparently the "weak" warhound is enough to break the game.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/03/escalation-tournament-report-this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/

There also is another tournament report on that blog about a player having just one turbo-laser on his warhound because of WYSIWYG, with the same result.

That particular tank is not currently tournament legal though is it? That might get you to 4-5 infantry models per turn though, slightly better bang for your buck. I have yet to see a D weapon worth it's cost.

Please stick the the point of the thread.

These things about the moral wherefore and why of playing or not playing non-tournament games are being widely debated in other threads.

Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

How big are the blasts from the warhound?

Jidmah: It may be the "FW isn't legal" thing under a different name. Although considering that almost all the LOWs are from forgeworld, that's a pretty hard thing to claim.

I honestly know nothing about Lords of War, never seen one, or the book. So I honestly don't know what is and is not tournament legal.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
How big are the blasts from the warhound?

The Double-Barrelled Turbo-Laser Destructor is 96" S: D AP: 2 Primary Weapon 2, Large Blast
The other thing was a reply to Jidmah (you silly ninja).

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
That might get you to 4-5 infantry models per turn though, slightly better bang for your buck. I have yet to see a D weapon worth it's cost.

Seriously? Do you field nothing but bare-bones Guardsmen? If that's the case, good for you, D-weapons are nothing but point sinks.

But if you brought a Leman Russ? Gone on turn one. A Chapter Master? Ha! A squad of Terminators? Splat! You put your guys in cover? Lol, irrelevant. Invested in tougher guys with good armour? That's cute. You brought a kickass commander with some elite troopers to back him up? Congrats, you're basically playing at a severe points deficit now.

Again, with some of the d-weapon platforms (like the IG tanks) it's not the end of the world. It's one large blast a turn, and there are ways of killing it. But with the good super heavies, the game becomes a joke. You either kill it on turn one and play five turns of 1850 vs 950 points, or you go second and die horribly without being able to do anything about it. Not my idea of a good time.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I honestly know nothing about Lords of War, never seen one, or the book. So I honestly don't know what is and is not tournament legal.

According to the combined forces of FW and GW everything is legal. Everything.

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

FW released a download that says what is legal (of FW stuff).

Thud wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
That might get you to 4-5 infantry models per turn though, slightly better bang for your buck. I have yet to see a D weapon worth it's cost.

Seriously? Do you field nothing but bare-bones Guardsmen? If that's the case, good for you, D-weapons are nothing but point sinks.

But if you brought a Leman Russ? Gone on turn one. A Chapter Master? Ha! A squad of Terminators? Splat! You put your guys in cover? Lol, irrelevant. Invested in tougher guys with good armour? That's cute. You brought a kickass commander with some elite troopers to back him up? Congrats, you're basically playing at a severe points deficit now.

Again, with some of the d-weapon platforms (like the IG tanks) it's not the end of the world. It's one large blast a turn, and there are ways of killing it. But with the good super heavies, the game becomes a joke. You either kill it on turn one and play five turns of 1850 vs 950 points, or you go second and die horribly without being able to do anything about it. Not my idea of a good time.

I can't speak for all armies, or play styles, only my own, but as I hide crisis suits behind a wall of drones, 2 S D large blasts will kill just the drones if they get two direct hits, possibly one of the crisis suits. And I feel completely confident that my deep striking melta team could one turn most titans, assuming they have less than 8 hull points. To me spending 1000+ points on something to kill 131 points (one of my skyrays) or 72-130 points (one of my crisis teams) is simply stupid. A Farsight bomb would obliterate a titan of any kind. I am speaking only from a Tau player's perspective here, but titans are just jokes from where I am sitting.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Thud wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
That might get you to 4-5 infantry models per turn though, slightly better bang for your buck. I have yet to see a D weapon worth it's cost.

Seriously? Do you field nothing but bare-bones Guardsmen? If that's the case, good for you, D-weapons are nothing but point sinks.

But if you brought a Leman Russ? Gone on turn one. A Chapter Master? Ha! A squad of Terminators? Splat! You put your guys in cover? Lol, irrelevant. Invested in tougher guys with good armour? That's cute. You brought a kickass commander with some elite troopers to back him up? Congrats, you're basically playing at a severe points deficit now.

Again, with some of the d-weapon platforms (like the IG tanks) it's not the end of the world. It's one large blast a turn, and there are ways of killing it. But with the good super heavies, the game becomes a joke. You either kill it on turn one and play five turns of 1850 vs 950 points, or you go second and die horribly without being able to do anything about it. Not my idea of a good time.

I can't speak for all armies, or play styles, only my own, but as I hide crisis suits behind a wall of drones, 2 S D large blasts will kill just the drones if they get two direct hits, possibly one of the crisis suits. And I feel completely confident that my deep striking melta team could one turn most titans, assuming they have less than 8 hull points. To me spending 1000+ points on something to kill 131 points (one of my skyrays) or 72-130 points (one of my crisis teams) is simply stupid. A Farsight bomb would obliterate a titan of any kind. I am speaking only from a Tau player's perspective here, but titans are just jokes from where I am sitting.

A Revenant has 9HP, and after you hit it, you need to hit it again (3+ if it stood still, 4+ if it moved). And as for your deep strikers; for every turn they are delayed, that's another two of your units destroyed. And then you have to hope your opponent doesn't have a bunch of interceptor fire, or that he doesn't know how to block you from deep striking close enough, or that you don't scatter off, and that your fusion blasters can actually damage the thing.

As for its offensive capabilities; it puts out two D large blasts on one target, and another two on another target. It also has some S5 missiles, but whatever. So that'd be 260 points of Skyrays/Crisis suits every turn.

And whether or not a Farsight bomb obliterates a Revenant is up for debate, but for argument's sake; let's say it does. Now what? My 900 point units kills yours if I go first, your 900 point unit kills mine if you go first. After that it's mopping up, and hey what a great game we had!

They might seem like jokes to you, but it seems to me like you have absolutely no idea what they can do.

The Revenant Titan has 9 hull points and a 4+ pseudo-save, still think you can take it down that easy?

Edit: Deathleaper'd

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

FW released a download that says what is legal (of FW stuff).

Yeah, I'm planning on doing a 40k approved PDF for fielding various pets in standard games, like the Hamsterfex, Kitty Bio-Titan and, of course , Rending Pony.

Thud wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Thud wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
That might get you to 4-5 infantry models per turn though, slightly better bang for your buck. I have yet to see a D weapon worth it's cost.

Seriously? Do you field nothing but bare-bones Guardsmen? If that's the case, good for you, D-weapons are nothing but point sinks.

But if you brought a Leman Russ? Gone on turn one. A Chapter Master? Ha! A squad of Terminators? Splat! You put your guys in cover? Lol, irrelevant. Invested in tougher guys with good armour? That's cute. You brought a kickass commander with some elite troopers to back him up? Congrats, you're basically playing at a severe points deficit now.

Again, with some of the d-weapon platforms (like the IG tanks) it's not the end of the world. It's one large blast a turn, and there are ways of killing it. But with the good super heavies, the game becomes a joke. You either kill it on turn one and play five turns of 1850 vs 950 points, or you go second and die horribly without being able to do anything about it. Not my idea of a good time.

I can't speak for all armies, or play styles, only my own, but as I hide crisis suits behind a wall of drones, 2 S D large blasts will kill just the drones if they get two direct hits, possibly one of the crisis suits. And I feel completely confident that my deep striking melta team could one turn most titans, assuming they have less than 8 hull points. To me spending 1000+ points on something to kill 131 points (one of my skyrays) or 72-130 points (one of my crisis teams) is simply stupid. A Farsight bomb would obliterate a titan of any kind. I am speaking only from a Tau player's perspective here, but titans are just jokes from where I am sitting.

A Revenant has 9HP, and after you hit it, you need to hit it again (3+ if it stood still, 4+ if it moved). And as for your deep strikers; for every turn they are delayed, that's another two of your units destroyed. And then you have to hope your opponent doesn't have a bunch of interceptor fire, or that he doesn't know how to block you from deep striking close enough, or that you don't scatter off, and that your fusion blasters can actually damage the thing.

As for its offensive capabilities; it puts out two D large blasts on one target, and another two on another target. It also has some S5 missiles, but whatever. So that'd be 260 points of Skyrays/Crisis suits every turn.

And whether or not a Farsight bomb obliterates a Revenant is up for debate, but for argument's sake; let's say it does. Now what? My 900 point units kills yours if I go first, your 900 point unit kills mine if you go first. After that it's mopping up, and hey what a great game we had!

They might seem like jokes to you, but it seems to me like you have absolutely no idea what they can do.

This is entirely true, I have never fought one, and thus did not know that one needs to roll to hit twice. Why is that by the way, some kind of weird force field? I never assumed that was a rule, and how could I, I have never heard a rule like that in my life. Farsight Bomb costs ruffly 1007 points first off. Not that this is anything against your argument, just something I find funny as that is a rediculous amount of points to put into one unit. Assuming you give 4 of them two melta guns, that makes 8 melta shots twin linked with tank hunter. 6 hit the first time, 4.5 hit the second time. Tank hunter means there is a 4 or 5% chance one fails to pen. 4.5 HP right off the bat half cause explosions which do +D3 HP so 2.25 do that, assuming adverage rolls that makes 9HP average in a turn... That is ridiculous I know, but easy to do, and your interceptors would hit 16 drones with 4+ cover saves in the open two of which have 3+ invulnerable saves.

My deep strike unit I usually field would not fair that well if they need to hit twice. Only 2 hits resulting in an average of 4 HP on the turn they arrive, less impressive...

Needing to hit them twice is a hell of a thing.

PS: Farsight never scatters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as it's shooting it will average half an infantry squad a turn, and possibly a tank... I can live with that. Not to scary.

The Dsword on the Knight isnt bad, scary but not bad. I believed ranged D is where most of the hesitation comes from

Shame as those with the big toys do like dusting them off every so often.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

Oh, you mean the book full of models produced by forgeworld?

Also, keep in mind that you still have to deploy your cat in your deployment zone, so it would be much closer to your models than it would be to your opponent's. Not to mention the victory points it gives up if the cat's natural disregard for anything humans do kicks in and it just leaves the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
This is entirely true, I have never fought one, and thus did not know that one needs to roll to hit twice. Why is that by the way, some kind of weird force field? I never assumed that was a rule, and how could I, I have never heard a rule like that in my life. Farsight Bomb costs ruffly 1007 points first off. Not that this is anything against your argument, just something I find funny as that is a rediculous amount of points to put into one unit. Assuming you give 4 of them two melta guns, that makes 8 melta shots twin linked with tank hunter. 6 hit the first time, 4.5 hit the second time. Tank hunter means there is a 4 or 5% chance one fails to pen. 4.5 HP right off the bat half cause explosions which do +D3 HP so 2.25 do that, assuming adverage rolls that makes 9HP average in a turn... That is ridiculous I know, but easy to do, and your interceptors would hit 16 drones with 4+ cover saves in the open two of which have 3+ invulnerable saves.

My deep strike unit I usually field would not fair that well if they need to hit twice. Only 2 hits resulting in an average of 4 HP on the turn they arrive, less impressive...

Needing to hit them twice is a hell of a thing.

PS: Farsight never scatters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as it's shooting it will average half an infantry squad a turn, and possibly a tank... I can live with that. Not to scary.

Which is exactly what everyone is talking about. The game is not decided by who had the better strategy, codex or whatever, but rather by that single turn. Either farsight's party kills the titan right there (and hopefully is not killed by the explosion) and you proceed to wipe the enemy army of the board for the rest of the game, or you fail to do your average 9 hull points, the titan shoots your deathstar dead and then proceeds to wipe away your army.

Also replace "half and infantry squad and a tank" with "half of your best infantry squad and your best tank" and you'll quickly have a problem.