Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

Oh, you mean the book full of models produced by forgeworld?

Also, keep in mind that you still have to deploy your cat in your deployment zone, so it would be much closer to your models than it would be to your opponent's. Not to mention the victory points it gives up if the cat's natural disregard for anything humans do kicks in and it just leaves the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
This is entirely true, I have never fought one, and thus did not know that one needs to roll to hit twice. Why is that by the way, some kind of weird force field? I never assumed that was a rule, and how could I, I have never heard a rule like that in my life. Farsight Bomb costs ruffly 1007 points first off. Not that this is anything against your argument, just something I find funny as that is a rediculous amount of points to put into one unit. Assuming you give 4 of them two melta guns, that makes 8 melta shots twin linked with tank hunter. 6 hit the first time, 4.5 hit the second time. Tank hunter means there is a 4 or 5% chance one fails to pen. 4.5 HP right off the bat half cause explosions which do +D3 HP so 2.25 do that, assuming adverage rolls that makes 9HP average in a turn... That is ridiculous I know, but easy to do, and your interceptors would hit 16 drones with 4+ cover saves in the open two of which have 3+ invulnerable saves.

My deep strike unit I usually field would not fair that well if they need to hit twice. Only 2 hits resulting in an average of 4 HP on the turn they arrive, less impressive...

Needing to hit them twice is a hell of a thing.

PS: Farsight never scatters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as it's shooting it will average half an infantry squad a turn, and possibly a tank... I can live with that. Not to scary.

Which is exactly what everyone is talking about. The game is not decided by who had the better strategy, codex or whatever, but rather by that single turn. Either farsight's party kills the titan right there (and hopefully is not killed by the explosion) and you proceed to wipe the enemy army of the board for the rest of the game, or you fail to do your average 9 hull points, the titan shoots your deathstar dead and then proceeds to wipe away your army.

Also replace "half and infantry squad and a tank" with "half of your best infantry squad and your best tank" and you'll quickly have a problem.

I honestly would like to know in what world 4 large blast templates, even if they ignore every save could cause 25 models to die when they have a 1/2 chance of hitting and only get an average of 3-4 models under each template at a time. Even with perfect shooting the titan would manage only 16 kills. Congrats you killed some drones. Again I know this sensation isn't the same for Space Marine players who lose 40 point models every time they get shot at, or IG tanks which can cost over 200 points, but from a Tau perspective, and perhaps only from a Tau perspective, these things are not scary.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:


I honestly would like to know in what world 4 large blast templates, even if they ignore every save could cause 25 models to die when they have a 1/2 chance of hitting and only get an average of 3-4 models under each template at a time. Even with perfect shooting the titan would manage only 16 kills. Congrats you killed some drones. Again I know this sensation isn't the same for Space Marine players who lose 40 point models every time they get shot at, or IG tanks which can cost over 200 points, but from a Tau perspective, and perhaps only from a Tau perspective, these things are not scary.

It will likely be twin linked from psyker powers, and if you're having a gak day they can potentially roll guide/prescience, forewarning, and fortune. Being that the holo-field roll doesn't allow a re-roll for being twin linked (it's just like an extra save), your 8 melta shots do 6 hits, 3 thru the holo fields, and .75 though the invul save. That is what people are worried about. Most armies superheavies are at least somewhat internally balanced by points, but EVERY Eldar superheavy is broke as heck. (every one has at least 2 D blasts, and their superheavy flyers are just dumb, so lets not go there).

 gardeth wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.

If someone brings a Revenant Titan to a game without any sort of warning, like, "Hey I might bring a Lord of War," or something similar, then in the current environment, what he is doing is worse than me bringing my beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game.

That individual is essentially asking you to be a punching bag for 5-7 rounds so he can play with his big toy. So I don't think refusing to play is in any way or form unreasonable.

What's wrong with bringing beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game?

Who's WAAC, the guy with tournament list, guy with Revenant or a guy who refuses the game because he has an underdog list and doesn't want to loose?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, how about I instead of asking him to play a more reasonable list I just immediately surrender and say "congratulations, you win, was that fun?"

How about you play for fun? For story? For cinematics? For extreme challenge? I hear that crap all the time but it all seems to come down not to play fluffy story based games but to force everyone to handicap so you can win too. What is more 40kish than to fight a Titan against all odds, either for the Emprah or Khorne or greater good or sth, what loss is more cinematic than being blasted off the table with unstopable weapons? Sure if you already played 20 games like that then it is a good reason to refuse but just because Titan? I don't know.

I'm sorry GW broke the game with Escalation but it is not a fault of a player bringing a superheavy.

pepe5454 wrote:
Curious here. So someone should play a game with someone that has "crap unblanced rules that make the game unenjoyable." to not be a jerk?

It's not someone that has crap unbalanced rules. It's the game that has crap, unbalanced rules. Both players play the same game but one is punished despite building the list following the official rules, and if the shop/ club is full of "casuals" like the one refusing, he might not find anyone to play at all. That after buying the model for what, 300 pounds? Jesus.

GW didn't break the game by introducing Escalation. it allows the players who have those models to use them in a normal game. However, this thread is not discussing that. Remember, GW didn't invent this game for tournament play, they did it for fun.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

Oh, you mean the book full of models produced by forgeworld?

Also, keep in mind that you still have to deploy your cat in your deployment zone, so it would be much closer to your models than it would be to your opponent's. Not to mention the victory points it gives up if the cat's natural disregard for anything humans do kicks in and it just leaves the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
This is entirely true, I have never fought one, and thus did not know that one needs to roll to hit twice. Why is that by the way, some kind of weird force field? I never assumed that was a rule, and how could I, I have never heard a rule like that in my life. Farsight Bomb costs ruffly 1007 points first off. Not that this is anything against your argument, just something I find funny as that is a rediculous amount of points to put into one unit. Assuming you give 4 of them two melta guns, that makes 8 melta shots twin linked with tank hunter. 6 hit the first time, 4.5 hit the second time. Tank hunter means there is a 4 or 5% chance one fails to pen. 4.5 HP right off the bat half cause explosions which do +D3 HP so 2.25 do that, assuming adverage rolls that makes 9HP average in a turn... That is ridiculous I know, but easy to do, and your interceptors would hit 16 drones with 4+ cover saves in the open two of which have 3+ invulnerable saves.

My deep strike unit I usually field would not fair that well if they need to hit twice. Only 2 hits resulting in an average of 4 HP on the turn they arrive, less impressive...

Needing to hit them twice is a hell of a thing.

PS: Farsight never scatters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as it's shooting it will average half an infantry squad a turn, and possibly a tank... I can live with that. Not to scary.

Which is exactly what everyone is talking about. The game is not decided by who had the better strategy, codex or whatever, but rather by that single turn. Either farsight's party kills the titan right there (and hopefully is not killed by the explosion) and you proceed to wipe the enemy army of the board for the rest of the game, or you fail to do your average 9 hull points, the titan shoots your deathstar dead and then proceeds to wipe away your army.

Also replace "half and infantry squad and a tank" with "half of your best infantry squad and your best tank" and you'll quickly have a problem.

I honestly would like to know in what world 4 large blast templates, even if they ignore every save could cause 25 models to die when they have a 1/2 chance of hitting and only get an average of 3-4 models under each template at a time. Even with perfect shooting the titan would manage only 16 kills. Congrats you killed some drones. Again I know this sensation isn't the same for Space Marine players who lose 40 point models every time they get shot at, or IG tanks which can cost over 200 points, but from a Tau perspective, and perhaps only from a Tau perspective, these things are not scary.

You do know that you dont get to allocate wounds to your drones if your suits get hit. D weapons roll for the models hit not the units hit. So if your crisis suit takes 3 wounds he can't transfer them to drones. On the follow up though any overkill of a model is not transfered to the unit either. So I may very well kill your drones and your suit. With BS4 its not hard to get your templat on or nearby the target and thats without guide and such from my farseer. If you think a revenant titan is no big deal think of it this way. I can fit my titan in an army of 1250 points and still have the required HQ and 2 troops. It will single handedly destroy anything you plop on the field that isn't a flier. The only reason it cant kill the flier is because templates can't target fliers. I crush triptide Tau on a regular basis the minute my Rev hits the field.

Edited to show the titans. (BTW i run the armorcast version for 2 reasons. I like my titans to not look like giant guardians and i got both of them for under $300 combined.

It's best to think of it as apocalypse that doesn't take as long. (ninjaed)

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 gardeth wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.

If someone brings a Revenant Titan to a game without any sort of warning, like, "Hey I might bring a Lord of War," or something similar, then in the current environment, what he is doing is worse than me bringing my beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game.

That individual is essentially asking you to be a punching bag for 5-7 rounds so he can play with his big toy. So I don't think refusing to play is in any way or form unreasonable.

What's wrong with bringing beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game?

Who's WAAC, the guy with tournament list, guy with Revenant or a guy who refuses the game because he has an underdog list and doesn't want to loose?

If I bring my tournament list to a pickup game against a casual player, we end up with a game that last 3 turns. My opponent has a gak time as all he is doing is picking up models, and I have learned 0 about my army, so the exercise is pointless. In casual play the key focus is fun so its important that both players be on the same page going in.

And being an underdog and being a clay pigeon for someone to shoot are two different things. I often "stress test" my tournament lists by deliberately playing the worst matchups, letting my opponent pick psychic powers and warlord traits AND whether they go first or 2nd. That makes for a tough game and teaches you a LOT about your army. Getting blown off the table by an extrememly unbalanced model teaches me nothing, EVEN if I manage to get lucky and destroy it somehow.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I honestly would like to know in what world 4 large blast templates, even if they ignore every save could cause 25 models to die when they have a 1/2 chance of hitting and only get an average of 3-4 models under each template at a time. Even with perfect shooting the titan would manage only 16 kills. Congrats you killed some drones. Again I know this sensation isn't the same for Space Marine players who lose 40 point models every time they get shot at, or IG tanks which can cost over 200 points, but from a Tau perspective, and perhaps only from a Tau perspective, these things are not scary.

Four large blasts, BS4, twin-linked from psychic powers, removes your models on a 2+.

You're saying that will end up with a bunch of dead drones, no big deal. I'm sure you're aware that you start with removing the closest models, right? Right. So, you'll just put the drones closest to it, so those suckers go first. No problemo. Or, wait, hang on... How far can this thing move before shooting all of its weapons? Go on, guess. (Hint: it's 36" and it's a jump move, so it just skips over terrain)

And if you're deep striking your bomb... It has a massive footprint, so it's relatively easy for the Eldar player to sit the Revenant in a corner, surround it with units spread out enough for you to stay out of melta range when you come in, making it more likely for the bomb to fail to kill it. Hell, I'm sure it'd be possible to keep your meltas out of range altogether. And then your bomb dies.

But again, that's still not the point. The point is that it makes for a horribly boring game. It's like a Wild West duel, where the duelers roll off with dice to see who gets to shoot first. Winner kills the other guy. Back in tabletop terms that makes for the most boring game of all time. I don't know what you're in the hobby for, but I'm not in it for that.

 gardeth wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 gardeth wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Personally, I consider showing up to a pickup game with a Revenant Titan to be more of a jerk move.

It's at best the same level of jerk move that you make refusing him a game. In my opinion yours is worse because GW released him a supplement that states it's a part of base rules, then offered him a model and then he meets you with some stick in the ass pretentious I don't play this don't play that attitude and you punish the guy for a crap unbalaned rules that can make the game unenjoyable.

Also your no consent argument is irrelevant to the discussion and is not a solution for a game. You have time and low standards to fix $100+ rules then fine but don't present it as something workable or universal.

If someone brings a Revenant Titan to a game without any sort of warning, like, "Hey I might bring a Lord of War," or something similar, then in the current environment, what he is doing is worse than me bringing my beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game.

That individual is essentially asking you to be a punching bag for 5-7 rounds so he can play with his big toy. So I don't think refusing to play is in any way or form unreasonable.

What's wrong with bringing beat-stick, tweaked tournament list to a pickup game?

Who's WAAC, the guy with tournament list, guy with Revenant or a guy who refuses the game because he has an underdog list and doesn't want to loose?

If I bring my tournament list to a pickup game against a casual player, we end up with a game that last 3 turns. My opponent has a gak time as all he is doing is picking up models, and I have learned 0 about my army, so the exercise is pointless. In casual play the key focus is fun so its important that both players be on the same page going in.

And being an underdog and being a clay pigeon for someone to shoot are two different things. I often "stress test" my tournament lists by deliberately playing the worst matchups, letting my opponent pick psychic powers and warlord traits AND whether they go first or 2nd. That makes for a tough game and teaches you a LOT about your army.

It might be pointless in some situations but how crap the other player's army has to be for him to do nothing but pickup models and for you to learn nothing. Also if it really is that bad then you can put yourself at disadvantage, tweak the terrain etc. It's all better than straight refusing the game because it makes no sense or sth.

 gardeth wrote:
Getting blown off the table by an extrememly unbalanced model teaches me nothing, EVEN if I manage to get lucky and destroy it somehow.

It teaches you nothing, ok but that's a so called tourney/ competitive player attitude. There's still the fun and wackyness and fluff that casual players are speaking about and I don't know why should they ever refuse the game against a Titan. Why not be laid back about it and let the fellow wargamer have his fun, or maybe, just maybe score win against a Titan and have a story for next 2 months.

Anyway, I was reffering mainly to the attitude that someone bringing a superheavy is making a jerk move or sth. Seriously this game.

btw funny how self appointed casual players are in fact the least laid back ones.

Thud wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I honestly would like to know in what world 4 large blast templates, even if they ignore every save could cause 25 models to die when they have a 1/2 chance of hitting and only get an average of 3-4 models under each template at a time. Even with perfect shooting the titan would manage only 16 kills. Congrats you killed some drones. Again I know this sensation isn't the same for Space Marine players who lose 40 point models every time they get shot at, or IG tanks which can cost over 200 points, but from a Tau perspective, and perhaps only from a Tau perspective, these things are not scary.

Four large blasts, BS4, twin-linked from psychic powers, removes your models on a 2+.

You're saying that will end up with a bunch of dead drones, no big deal. I'm sure you're aware that you start with removing the closest models, right? Right. So, you'll just put the drones closest to it, so those suckers go first. No problemo. Or, wait, hang on... How far can this thing move before shooting all of its weapons? Go on, guess. (Hint: it's 36" and it's a jump move, so it just skips over terrain)

And if you're deep striking your bomb... It has a massive footprint, so it's relatively easy for the Eldar player to sit the Revenant in a corner, surround it with units spread out enough for you to stay out of melta range when you come in, making it more likely for the bomb to fail to kill it. Hell, I'm sure it'd be possible to keep your meltas out of range altogether. And then your bomb dies.

But again, that's still not the point. The point is that it makes for a horribly boring game. It's like a Wild West duel, where the duelers roll off with dice to see who gets to shoot first. Winner kills the other guy. Back in tabletop terms that makes for the most boring game of all time. I don't know what you're in the hobby for, but I'm not in it for that.

No one said it had a jump move... One thing I never understand about dakka, every conversation I get into about something I know little about, I ask what they can do, what weapons they have, what they cost. And people give me information piecemeal, in such a way that I am unable to make any judgement at all.

Anyway I doubt he would get anything other than drones as there are enough drones to surround your unit. He can't both turtle, and move to engage my unit, this is an impossibility. You can limit it's available movement by simply spreading out your own infantry all over. And I know zero players, other than myself, out of some 43 or so I regularly game with that would think of using their own units to deny melta range. I have done this to many other people and for some reason they never learn from my example. It has been my experience in 40k, as in my many other pursuits, that people are just stupid, make mistake after mistake, and attribute all losses or failures to the cheating of others and not a lack of skill on their part. It is if people like you begin to use such models that I will begin to be upset, but as bad players tend to favor boring armies that win easy, and good players tend to enjoy playing on hard mode, I doubt this will be an issue.

That being said the very fact the thing requires you to hit it twice, the second time denying twin-linked rolls, and gets an invulnerable save makes this thing so broken it is ridiculous. If I was told that when I first asked how scary these things were, I would have conceded the ridiculousness of these things right away.

 Xerics wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why shouldn't it? It's on the LoW list from forgeworld.

Because it's not in the Escalation book? I I guess it depends when you draw the line between core rules only and fielding a cat bio-titan with a 40k approved sticker on it.

Oh, you mean the book full of models produced by forgeworld?

Also, keep in mind that you still have to deploy your cat in your deployment zone, so it would be much closer to your models than it would be to your opponent's. Not to mention the victory points it gives up if the cat's natural disregard for anything humans do kicks in and it just leaves the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
This is entirely true, I have never fought one, and thus did not know that one needs to roll to hit twice. Why is that by the way, some kind of weird force field? I never assumed that was a rule, and how could I, I have never heard a rule like that in my life. Farsight Bomb costs ruffly 1007 points first off. Not that this is anything against your argument, just something I find funny as that is a rediculous amount of points to put into one unit. Assuming you give 4 of them two melta guns, that makes 8 melta shots twin linked with tank hunter. 6 hit the first time, 4.5 hit the second time. Tank hunter means there is a 4 or 5% chance one fails to pen. 4.5 HP right off the bat half cause explosions which do +D3 HP so 2.25 do that, assuming adverage rolls that makes 9HP average in a turn... That is ridiculous I know, but easy to do, and your interceptors would hit 16 drones with 4+ cover saves in the open two of which have 3+ invulnerable saves.

My deep strike unit I usually field would not fair that well if they need to hit twice. Only 2 hits resulting in an average of 4 HP on the turn they arrive, less impressive...

Needing to hit them twice is a hell of a thing.

PS: Farsight never scatters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as it's shooting it will average half an infantry squad a turn, and possibly a tank... I can live with that. Not to scary.

Which is exactly what everyone is talking about. The game is not decided by who had the better strategy, codex or whatever, but rather by that single turn. Either farsight's party kills the titan right there (and hopefully is not killed by the explosion) and you proceed to wipe the enemy army of the board for the rest of the game, or you fail to do your average 9 hull points, the titan shoots your deathstar dead and then proceeds to wipe away your army.

Also replace "half and infantry squad and a tank" with "half of your best infantry squad and your best tank" and you'll quickly have a problem.

I honestly would like to know in what world 4 large blast templates, even if they ignore every save could cause 25 models to die when they have a 1/2 chance of hitting and only get an average of 3-4 models under each template at a time. Even with perfect shooting the titan would manage only 16 kills. Congrats you killed some drones. Again I know this sensation isn't the same for Space Marine players who lose 40 point models every time they get shot at, or IG tanks which can cost over 200 points, but from a Tau perspective, and perhaps only from a Tau perspective, these things are not scary.

You do know that you dont get to allocate wounds to your drones if your suits get hit. D weapons roll for the models hit not the units hit. So if your crisis suit takes 3 wounds he can't transfer them to drones. On the follow up though any overkill of a model is not transfered to the unit either. So I may very well kill your drones and your suit. With BS4 its not hard to get your templat on or nearby the target and thats without guide and such from my farseer. If you think a revenant titan is no big deal think of it this way. I can fit my titan in an army of 1250 points and still have the required HQ and 2 troops. It will single handedly destroy anything you plop on the field that isn't a flier. The only reason it cant kill the flier is because templates can't target fliers. I crush triptide Tau on a regular basis the minute my Rev hits the field.

Edited to show the titans. (BTW i run the armorcast version for 2 reasons. I like my titans to not look like giant guardians and i got both of them for under $300 combined.

Are you sure you are not confusing D weapons with barrage weapons? D does not mean the units directly under the template die, it is a strength. The weapon type, which I have been told is Heavy 2 Large blast not barrage. My information could be wrong, I am relying entirely on information given to my by others here on dakka.

The wording for D weapon damage is against models hit.

Now I know, and knowing is half the battle. singing/ GI JOE!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Based on that no I think strength D as it is currently worded has no place in normal 40k.

I was close to ditching my Eldar, but I kept them as a hobby project. I have a Revenant Titan as the icing on my 2000 pt lists cake, making me able to extend to 3k. I can tell you that I only have the Titan because it looks awesome...

...and as an active deterrant for anyone thinking Escalation would be a good idea. Because if you start allowing super heavies, are you going to deny me my super expensive model? Then you're ruining my fun! (Note: how silly is that argument?)

I've seen Revenant Titans waste apoc games and make them lopsided. I know they are absolutely broken. And not just, oh it's so efficient or no, it's not that bad kind of broken. It's 100% busted. Add in that you can now cast psychic powers on them... so you either have that thing under 9 void shields dancing with twinlinked D cannons or you have it with a 4++ on a skyshield. Get fortune for more hilarity! Bring Eldrad to help ensure you get it, even! YAY!

*sigh*

I wish it wasn't so busted so it was a legit thing to play in the game. Because Eldar Titans are some of the most gorgeous models in the entire line up, IMO.

 viewfinder wrote:
GW didn't break the game by introducing Escalation. it allows the players who have those models to use them in a normal game. However, this thread is not discussing that. Remember, GW didn't invent this game for tournament play, they did it for fun.

It's only since people started to complain so much about Escalation that GW's official line has become "Narrative, narrative." N

It is difficult to agree with that being the true state of GW when you look at the whole concept of army lists, points values and balanced games, all of which are taken from competitive historical wargaming, and a history of GW running and sponsoring tournaments for the past 25 years.

I am sure we all understand that GW's purpose is to sell the maximum amount of model kits, of course.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 viewfinder wrote:
GW didn't break the game by introducing Escalation. it allows the players who have those models to use them in a normal game. However, this thread is not discussing that. Remember, GW didn't invent this game for tournament play, they did it for fun.

It's only since people started to complain so much about Escalation that GW's official line has become "Narrative, narrative." N

It is difficult to agree with that being the true state of GW when you look at the whole concept of army lists, points values and balanced games, all of which are taken from competitive historical wargaming, and a history of GW running and sponsoring tournaments for the past 25 years.

I am sure we all understand that GW's purpose is to sell the maximum amount of model kits, of course.

true. but some of us don't always play tournament games. and if I have a Baneblade, I would like to be able to use it outside of an Apocalypse game once in a while. It's not a crime for GW to want to make money. The point of the thread is that for a tourney setting, D weapons are overpowered.

Strange, It would seem everything like this that seem's to "break' the game would have issues like this when it was new, but it appears the players always adapt to create lists to combat it and it seems to work out fine.

Who's to say when D is the norm that the lists make it not such a big deal.

I'm sure flyers were terrible when 6th first came out but they seem to be handled now.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Strange, It would seem everything like this that seem's to "break' the game would have issues like this when it was new, but it appears the players always adapt to create lists to combat it and it seems to work out fine.

Who's to say when D is the norm that the lists make it not such a big deal.

I'm sure flyers were terrible when 6th first came out but they seem to be handled now.

big difference: there are defenses against flyers. with D-weapons, your list doesn't really matter, it's just who goes first. hiding is about the only tactic against weapons that generally can cover the table. in a tournament setting, no fun. in a friendly game, I'll try my damnedest to build against that monster.

 viewfinder wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Strange, It would seem everything like this that seem's to "break' the game would have issues like this when it was new, but it appears the players always adapt to create lists to combat it and it seems to work out fine.

Who's to say when D is the norm that the lists make it not such a big deal.

I'm sure flyers were terrible when 6th first came out but they seem to be handled now.

big difference: there are defenses against flyers. with D-weapons, your list doesn't really matter, it's just who goes first. hiding is about the only tactic against weapons that generally can cover the table. in a tournament setting, no fun. in a friendly game, I'll try my damnedest to build against that monster.

Well there does seem to be this trend going around that most games are not played with enough terrain, especially LOS blocking terrain.

I mean if a tournament you know is going to have this in it, you build around it like you build around any tournament knowing that people will be bringing WWAC lists. 40k crew seems adaptable, grudgingly, but adaptable.

Out of curiosity what is the front and side armor of a revenant titan?

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
No one said it had a jump move... One thing I never understand about dakka, every conversation I get into about something I know little about, I ask what they can do, what weapons they have, what they cost. And people give me information piecemeal, in such a way that I am unable to make any judgement at all.

When you start your argument being strongly opinionated about something, people assume you know what you're talking about. They probably didn't explain to you how D weapons work and that the Revenant had a jump move because you were so positive it wasn't game breaking that they thought you knew what you were talking about.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Out of curiosity what is the front and side armor of a revenant titan?

It's a 12/12/10 9HP super-heavy walker.

The phantom titian is a 13/13/11 24HP super-heavy for 'only' 2500 points. It's more expensive than a manta.

12/12/10... Not that bad at all actually...

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
12/12/10... Not that bad at all actually...

Does it have a save?

You have to hit it twice apparently, the second time you gain no benefits from twin linked, and it has an invulnerable save.

It has a titan holofield, which essentially ignores hits on a 4+ including D weapons.

Adding that it's easy enough with the movement and cost of it to get it an invul, like the skyshield, or get it cover, hiding behind a bastion.

You'll have to remember that it's superheavy too, so every one of the 9 hull points has to go away before you affect it's firepower at all. which will be about 27 glance/pens with the off chance you'll get some more with explosions.

Thud wrote:

The point is that it makes for a horribly boring game. It's like a Wild West duel, where the duelers roll off with dice to see who gets to shoot first. Winner kills the other guy. Back in tabletop terms that makes for the most boring game of all time. I don't know what you're in the hobby for, but I'm not in it for that.

iirc the main question refers to tournament games. And they're not supposed to be fun or something. Regular tournaments have waac attitude and it's perfectly fine. That's what they're for i guess. You try to get the strongest units from your army to counter what you might face there. With the solely purpose of winning.

There are some other types of tournaments with a friendly casual attitude. They deliberately invent rules that tone down the lists you might bring. They explictly state: "No triptides, no 2++ rerollable, no serpent spam, etc". Now they also state: "No revenant titan".

Note that most super-heavies don't feel unballanced at all. But some do feel rediculous for a casual game. Though, i see nothing wrong in bringing a revenant titan in a competitive tournament. Cause the ideology of such tournaments is exactly to face op stuff and win by countering it with your list (usually by bringing op stuff yourself) or outplaying it if possible.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
It has a titan holofield, which essentially ignores hits on a 4+ including D weapons.

Adding that it's easy enough with the movement and cost of it to get it an invul, like the skyshield, or get it cover, hiding behind a bastion.

You'll have to remember that it's superheavy too, so every one of the 9 hull points has to go away before you affect it's firepower at all. which will be about 27 glance/pens with the off chance you'll get some more with explosions.

iv asked it before and ill ask it again, does it fit on a skyshield with the sides folded up? the base for my thunderhawk might, beyond that i think youd be struggling

 koooaei wrote:


iirc the main question refers to tournament games. And they're not supposed to be fun or something. Regular tournaments have waac attitude and it's perfectly fine. That's what they're for i guess. You try to get the strongest units from your army to counter what you might face there. With the solely purpose of winning.

No, you've got that quite wrong. WAAC players should not be tolerated anywhere because WAAC is a terrible, terrible attitude and I hate seeing it and 'competitive' player used interchangeably. A competitive player wants a fun, relatively fair game where they are challenged and win or lose due to their or their opponents skill. WAAC players bend the rules or outright cheat to win.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Assuming you give 4 of them two melta guns, that makes 8 melta shots twin linked with tank hunter. 6 hit the first time, 4.5 hit the second time. Tank hunter means there is a 4 or 5% chance one fails to pen. 4.5 HP right off the bat half cause explosions which do +D3 HP so 2.25 do that, assuming adverage rolls that makes 9HP average in a turn... That is ridiculous I know, but easy to do, and your interceptors would hit 16 drones with 4+ cover saves in the open two of which have 3+ invulnerable saves.

You don't get twin linked against the 2nd roll to hit. It's not actually a "to hit" roll as such, it's to check whether you fired at the actual target or a holo-field image instead. So if the Revenant didn't move, you have 8 melta shots, 6 hit the first time, only 2 actually get through on average. The Revenant then jumps away and destroys the unit with StrD blasts.