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BLM trying a new tack I think. Collecting over one million dollars in grazing rights

 Breotan wrote:
Not feeling overly sympathetic for this guy. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I don't know if it's been in the news yet, but a pregnant woman got tazed.
Even if everyone was in agreement that Bundy was in the wrong, the methods being employed are destroying the economy of that area. The government is making every one suffer for one man's offense, turning the whole "It's better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned" statement on it's head.
My sister was down by the ranch today and said if the BLM, Rangers, and FBI were doing their best to piss the area residents off, tjey couldn't have used better methods. They are shooting the bulls and leaving them to rot, and since it's calving season, calves are being separated from their mothers and left to starve to death or die of exposure.
The BLM trying to foist off cattle they didn't know the health of in Utah cattle auctions, risking exposing healthy herds to sickness didn't go over well either.

This gak is getting ugly according to my sister, with this as just a taster:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKNx3mBSAxE


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nkelsch wrote:
If a 'militia' stands up, they deserve to get whatever enters into and splatters out the back of their heads. This is not a just cause worth taking up arms for... if they going to take up arms, then they deserve to be shot dead.

Sounds like the rancher is the tyrant who is threatening the local town folk to 'support him' or risk the consequences. Faster he is removed from the land and society it sounds, the better off everyone will be.

If they were black, and in the city on public park land taking up arms while illegally squatting the land and breaking other laws, they would all be dead and there would barley be a page 12 story in the local paper about it, let alone national news.

You don't know the guy. He is niether a tyrant or threatened anyone if they didn't support him. The Government's methods are what are pissing people off down there and they are drawing together to protest.

Relapse wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Not feeling overly sympathetic for this guy. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I don't know if it's been in the news yet, but a pregnant woman got tazed.
Even if everyone was in agreement that Bundy was in the wrong, the methods being employed are destroying the economy of that area. The government is making every one suffer for one man's offense, turning the whole "It's better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned" statement on it's head.
My sister was down by the ranch today and said if the BLM, Rangers, and FBI were doing their best to piss the area residents off, tjey couldn't have used better methods. They are shooting the bulls and leaving them to rot, and since it's calving season, calves are being separated from their mothers and left to starve to death or die of exposure.
The BLM trying to foist off cattle they didn't know the health of in Utah cattle auctions, risking exposing healthy herds to sickness didn't go over well either.

This gak is getting ugly according to my sister, with this as just a taster:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKNx3mBSAxE

But Bundy started it and is intimidating the locals of 'if you don't support me, we will cause a scene and you and your livelihood will be caught in the crossfire'. If he didn't want to harm his neighbors he could have cooperated. Him and his crew are not. The excuse of 'they should allow them to get away with it as not to impact others' shows how Bundy has basically taken hostages.

All those cows need to die anyways as they are not fit for consumption due to Bundy's lack of management of them. Nature is pretty damn good at cleaning up after itself. I am fine with every one of those cows being put down, it needs to happen. Animals every day starve to death or die of exposure. I have worked in park management and have watched what happens when deer and other wildlife are fighting for food and wither and die. Those cows need to go.

Bundy is the one who is causing this, They are throwing things at federal officers, brandishing weapons... if they were black, they would all be dead with 2 shots to the back and no one would care or even question it. They are getting a lot more leeway than other 'protestors' would have.

Every one of them is putting the local town in danger and they are terrorists. They should beat and arrest every one of them. They should drop pepper spray from the sky like they are putting out a fire and beanbag them until they are unconscious. The town has no one to blame but this 'militia'.

What are the back hoes for? Digging holes to put the dead cattle in. Get out of the way.


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Relapse wrote:


You don't know the guy. He is niether a tyrant or threatened anyone if they didn't support him. The Government's methods are what are pissing people off down there and they are drawing together to protest.

He is a blatant criminal, and there is plenty of documentation of him being a tyrant and threatening people... I find nothing wrong with the government's methods... Bundy has driven it to this. he could have removed his cattle and obeyed the law when he lost and expended all legal recourse. I want the rest of the citizen's rights protected from this one person who is breaking the law and causing a problem.

They are not 'protesting' in a reasonable way. They are advocating violence, breaking the law and involving weapons. They need to stop before they cause more violence.

Who's PETA siding with?

 Jihadin wrote:
Who's PETA siding with?

Since they don't support ranching period, probably not the rancher... And they do support euthanizing animals opposed to forcing them to live lives which would resulting in neglect or abuse. Killing a cow to prevent it from starving, being abused or being used for food fits their standards usually.

Also, they probably would side with the conservationists.

Some of the local town meeting minutes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v0_SXrs4SkQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WOAzcm2hLCQ


Finaly, Bundy himself:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rkWljeiAhYI

A lot of the posters here don't seem to understand or care what the BLM is doing to this area and the people in it and why they are drawing together against the government down there.
These are not just some random no nothing redknecks, these are, in many cases well educated people that could take many here to school on the Constitution.

I'll admit they probably know more about the constitution than I do and the BLM does seem to be acting incorrectly in some regards.
That does not excuse the fact he is breaking the law.
I'd just sell him the land at decent price or chuck him in prison for a bit. Nicking his cows and terrorising the local populace (Why are they doing that btw?) doesn't seem to be working that well...
That said it does seem like this is the sort of place where any kind of government activity would be resisted...

EDIT: Having read more this entire thing is dumb.

 purplefood wrote:
I'll admit they probably know more about the constitution than I do and the BLM does seem to be acting incorrectly in some regards.
That does not excuse the fact he is breaking the law.
I'd just sell him the land at decent price or chuck him in prison for a bit. Nicking his cows and terrorising the local populace (Why are they doing that btw?) doesn't seem to be working that well...
That said it does seem like this is the sort of place where any kind of government activity would be resisted...

Watch the videos of the town meeting I posted. This is beyond just the cattle. Most here seems focused on Bundy and his cattle and giving the government a pass on their methods without bothering to try to understand why these valley residents are mad.

But its government land they are on correct? If so I'm not concerned very much. Thats a West thing, vs. central and East US thing.

There wouldn't be jack to get mad about if somebody wouldn't be breaking the law.

It takes a whole lot town of special snowflakes to get pissed off at the guys that are responding to the breaking of the law instead of the guy breaking the law.

The cows should vote to become a republic then call Russia for aid

Relapse wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
I'll admit they probably know more about the constitution than I do and the BLM does seem to be acting incorrectly in some regards.
That does not excuse the fact he is breaking the law.
I'd just sell him the land at decent price or chuck him in prison for a bit. Nicking his cows and terrorising the local populace (Why are they doing that btw?) doesn't seem to be working that well...
That said it does seem like this is the sort of place where any kind of government activity would be resisted...

Watch the videos of the town meeting I posted. This is beyond just the cattle. Most here seems focused on Bundy and his cattle and giving the government a pass on their methods without bothering to try to understand why these valley residents are mad.

The videos have no legal ground, just 'emotional posturing' of an unreasonable 'We can do what we want'

Why are they having dumptrucks and backhoes? Because your untagged, unhealthy, undocumented medical records, abandon, unsupervised cattle outside your property are being shot and killed (as they should be). If you didn't want that to happen, then don't take your poorly managed cattle and let them loose on land which is not yours. If you kept them safe and supervised and fed on your property, there would be no issue.

They *DO* have the authority to close 600,000 acres, they don't THINK they have the right, they KNOW they have the right.

These videos are emotional responses with no legal ground to stand on base don false premises. They are not having their land taken from them, it is not their land. They had plenty of time to appeal and discuss, they lost. If you leave your animals on public property, and they lack proper tags and health records and they are unsupervised, it becomes a hazard. They need to be removed and if needed, disposed of.

Boils down to, if they didn't want their cows taken or killed... keep them on your own property? Interfering with violence and taking up arms while they try to remove these cattle from public land is dangerous... they are trying to prevent the removal of the cattle which is going to extend the issue and harm the community and land more than if they just let them rightfully remove the cattle in a peaceful way.

They are all terrible people. They are causing their own cattle's death. They are using them as pawns and do not actually care about them, if they did, they would have respected the law and kept their cattle safe while they handled the 'rights' issue reasonably.

So was this land dispute resolved in court prior to all this happening?

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
The cows should vote to become a republic then call Russia for aid

If only the cows had been armed?


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Why are they having dumptrucks and backhoes? Because your untagged, unhealthy, undocumented medical records, abandon, unsupervised cattle outside your property are being shot and killed (as they should be). If you didn't want that to happen, then don't take your poorly managed cattle and let them loose on land which is not yours. If you kept them safe and supervised and fed on your property, there would be no issue.

Actually in most states if you shoot errant cattle on your property you now owe the value of those unprocessed bovine carcii. Just because it wanders into your yard doesn't mean you can blast it. Seriously.

 Medium of Death wrote:
So was this land dispute resolved in court prior to all this happening?

He has refused to pay BLM grazing fees since 1993, arguing in court filings that his Mormon ancestors worked the land long before the BLM was formed, giving him rights that predate federal involvement. His back fees exceed $300,000, he says.

In 1998, a federal judge issued a permanent injunction against the white-haired rancher, ordering his cattle off the land and setting off a long series of legal filings.

Officials say Bundy is illegally running cattle in the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area, habitat of the federally protected desert tortoise. Last year, a federal court judge ruled that if the 68-year-old veteran rancher did not remove his cattle, they could be seized by the BLM. That seizure began Saturday.

It has been more than settled in court.

The 'argument' is he shouldn't have to pay back money, and he has trespassed for 20 years and it is no big deal.

Quote:
"If people come to monkey with what's mine, I'll call the county sheriff. If that don't work, I'll gather my friends and kids and we'll try to stop it. I abide by all state laws. But I abide by almost zero federal laws."

It is over... he needs to stop. He can end all of this. He has to abide by federal law.






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 Frazzled wrote:


Actually in most states if you shoot errant cattle on your property you now owe the value of those unprocessed bovine carcii. Just because it wanders into your yard doesn't mean you can blast it. Seriously.

You can if the government says it can. Especially if they are untagged and are a risk to your cattle due to potential illness issues.

They longhorn cattle?

nkelsch wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
I'll admit they probably know more about the constitution than I do and the BLM does seem to be acting incorrectly in some regards.
That does not excuse the fact he is breaking the law.
I'd just sell him the land at decent price or chuck him in prison for a bit. Nicking his cows and terrorising the local populace (Why are they doing that btw?) doesn't seem to be working that well...
That said it does seem like this is the sort of place where any kind of government activity would be resisted...

Watch the videos of the town meeting I posted. This is beyond just the cattle. Most here seems focused on Bundy and his cattle and giving the government a pass on their methods without bothering to try to understand why these valley residents are mad.

The videos have no legal ground, just 'emotional posturing' of an unreasonable 'We can do what we want'

Why are they having dumptrucks and backhoes? Because your untagged, unhealthy, undocumented medical records, abandon, unsupervised cattle outside your property are being shot and killed (as they should be). If you didn't want that to happen, then don't take your poorly managed cattle and let them loose on land which is not yours. If you kept them safe and supervised and fed on your property, there would be no issue.

They *DO* have the authority to close 600,000 acres, they don't THINK they have the right, they KNOW they have the right.

These videos are emotional responses with no legal ground to stand on base don false premises. They are not having their land taken from them, it is not their land. They had plenty of time to appeal and discuss, they lost. If you leave your animals on public property, and they lack proper tags and health records and they are unsupervised, it becomes a hazard. They need to be removed and if needed, disposed of.

Boils down to, if they didn't want their cows taken or killed... keep them on your own property? Interfering with violence and taking up arms while they try to remove these cattle from public land is dangerous... they are trying to prevent the removal of the cattle which is going to extend the issue and harm the community and land more than if they just let them rightfully remove the cattle in a peaceful way.

They are all terrible people. They are causing their own cattle's death. They are using them as pawns and do not actually care about them, if they did, they would have respected the law and kept their cattle safe while they handled the 'rights' issue reasonably.

You are talking without a clue. The bulls are being shot, and they are trying to auction off the other cattle in other states, risking spreading disease to healthy herds if these cattle aren't healthy. They already tried to sell a bunch up here in Utah and were told to go to hell.

So they're not being executed humanly. PETA not up in arms about it....wait..they're probably vegan....

Thanks for the legal run down. Seems this guy is on the warparth and it'll probably end in violence.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Thanks for the legal run down. Seems this guy is on the warparth and it'll probably end in violence.

It isn't him. It's the BLM. My sister went out there and watched what was going on. This man is becoming a hero in that area because of the way the government is handling the situation down there.
This is the same cut of agents that shot and killed a pregnant woman at Ruby Ridge as she held her baby.

Federal officials said BLM enforcement agents were dispatched in response to statements Bundy made that the agency perceived as threats.

“When threats are made that could jeopardize the safety of the American people, the contractors and our personnel; we have the responsibility to provide law enforcement to account for their safety,” National Park Service spokeswoman Christie Vanover told reporters Sunday.

The trouble started when Bundy stopped paying grazing fees in 1993. He said he didn't have to because his Mormon ancestors worked the land since the 1880s, giving him rights to the land.

“We own this land,” he said, not the feds. He said he is willing to pay grazing fees but only to Clark County, not BLM.

Nevada politicians sided with Bundy, well the Gov. and and a Senator Rep. He's the last of 53 ranchers in the area.


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Why does BLM have Sniper teams?

Relapse wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Thanks for the legal run down. Seems this guy is on the warparth and it'll probably end in violence.

It isn't him. It's the BLM. My sister went out there and watched what was going on. This man is becoming a hero in that area because of the way the government is handling the situation down there.
This is the same cut of agents that shot and killed a pregnant woman at Ruby Ridge as she held her baby.

It is him. He is the one breaking the law. The argument that the government should do 'NOTHING' is unacceptable. He is a criminal and needs to be removed from society. He needs to go to jail.

If his cattle were not on the land, there would be no need to 'respond' or 'seize the cattle'. They are protecting the rest of the citizens while one citizen is breaking the law at the expense of everyone else. Lots of people want the land protected from him. I agree with them. He and his group have made threats and called for violence too many times. They have no rights on this issue and their cattle need to be removed, seized and the people who break the law need to go to jail, especially those who resort to armed violence.

Relapse wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Thanks for the legal run down. Seems this guy is on the warparth and it'll probably end in violence.

It isn't him. It's the BLM. My sister went out there and watched what was going on. This man is becoming a hero in that area because of the way the government is handling the situation down there.
This is the same cut of agents that shot and killed a pregnant woman at Ruby Ridge as she held her baby.

There is almost nothing in that statement that rings true, unless you are one of the militia guys out there. To anyone and everyone else paying attention he is a scofflaw idiot making truoble cause he seems to feel he is owed a free pass to federal land which was never his to begin with. Take the tinfoil hat off, its blocking your view.

 Jihadin wrote:

Why does BLM have Sniper teams?

Because they have to deal with groups of armed, violent criminals.

Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.

DutchWinsAll wrote:
Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.

Actually I didn't know that, but if you are the kind of person that thinks all people of a religious group hang together, nothing I can do for you.
As for me being a rabid supporter, you clearly haven't read any of my earlier posts. It's the government's methods I have issue with and the way they are disrupting an area's lives, rights and financial livlihoods for one man.
When I say he's becoming a hero to these people, It's not out of admiration, but just stating a point of fact to what I am seeing in the news and being told first hand by people on the scene.

I typically support farmers over bureaucracy but in this case it's rubbish. If it isn't his land he can't graze on it unless given permission, private /public whatever. In australia we allow farmers to graze cattle in public land where there is need (usually severe drought) but not as a general rule.
If he threatens that things could get more physical surely then he understands that the agents will take precautions. I find it interesting that things have gone to court and he refuses to comply with rulings.
He needs to stop drinking the "govment is stealing my rights" moonshine as the only one responsible for him losing his rights is himself. He's had 20 years of free feed , time to start paying for his own. If he didn't want his cows seized he should have moved them.

and FFS a hammer and sickle? It's called rule of law.

This threat is an exact repeat of the "evil government is making people homeless" thread we had during the shutdown with the same people making the same argument. A group of people are breaking the rules, but the Feds are the donkey-caves for enforcing them.

Relapse wrote:
This man is becoming a hero in that area because of the way the government is handling the situation down there.

Violate court orders for a decade, threaten cops, and then when they show up armed, cry about how you're oppressed. He's only a hero to idiots.


There is, however, a very valid beef (no pun intended) over those "first amendment areas" they set up.

This is the same cut of agents that shot and killed a pregnant woman at Ruby Ridge as she held her baby.

Not only is this horsegak, you know why this is horsegak. For anyone who may not, google it. The events at Ruby Ridge are just an incredible story of outrage and horror. This guy, on the other hand, is a criminal who has had the governments patience for almost 2 decades and is only getting an aggressive response now after he himself precipitated it. Even then the restraint now is so different that this is, to be honest, a trollish analogy.

 Jihadin wrote:
Why does BLM have Sniper teams?

They don't, unless any cop with a long gun counts as a sniper. The BLM has a law enforcement component as they do investigate some criminal matters, 270 officers total.

 Frazzled wrote:

Relapse wrote:
This is a couple hours down the road from me and could get a lot bigger and uglier than it already is:

http://www.infowars.com/federal-snipers-train-guns-on-family-for-filming-cattle/


From the local area paper:

http://mvprogress.com/2014/04/06/one-of-bundy’s-sons-arrested-in-roundup-incident/

Thats some seriously weird stuff. Either its militia nonsense or infowars is right.
Given the predliction to Polizei up everything I'm thinking male genitalia vs. Big Brother. Whoever loses, we win!
As policy I'd proffer all ranchers should be thrown off government property, and any other permitted "developer." Thats subsidized rich people making money off MY LAND.
Remove them Trail of Tears style.

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nkelsch wrote:
So, it is not his land... but he claims it is his land because his family has been using it for hundreds of years.

It ain't his land. He has no rights to it. If I went to a random park or person's land, and had a pack of animals tear it up and crap all over it, I would probably have my animals seized and be arrested.

Sounds like he can use the land if he pays... which is how it should be.

Well it couldn't have been too long. The rightful owners held that property until the mid 1800s when they lost the case of US Army vs. Native Tribes (settled by the court of .45-70). Thats likely guvment property, and if not its Paynee or some such (who lived there?)

Oh wait thats Nevada. Some places should never be fought for. Chernobyl, the Sahara Desert, New Mexico, Hobokken. Nevada?


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Relapse wrote:
Not that simple. The family wasn't told the charges or where he was taken. The family has also grazed and improved the land since the late 1800's.

So he says. its still goverment land. If its not government land its Shoshone or somebody his family stole it from. He's stealing from me. Burn him down.

The question here is if the government is going to go Ruby Ridge on this family.

Militia nonsense. Don't act like a psycho criminal who's going to shoot it out with the federales and you won't get sniper rounds coming at you.

A bit more from Fox:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/07/feds-move-in-on-nevada-rancher-herd-over-illegal-grazing/

Both sides are going too far over the top here.

Thats what the government does. The King always ramps it up when there is a threat to power.


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Relapse wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Is the only person saying the 'snipers' were there still the family? Because it seemed to start with them, and everything since has either referenced them, or just not referenced anything and gone 'ermagerd sniperz'. I'd love for there to have been none, that'd make me chuckle

This is something that has apparently been building up over the past couple of decades and looks readyto come to a head, so we'll see what goes on. It wouldn't surprise me to find there were snipers since gunplay is a very real possibility here. The issues involved are complex and there seem to be more players in this game coming out of the woodwork.
The thing is a lot of these ranchers out here have been grazing this land since the mid 1800's abd feel that theFederal government is stealing their livlihood out from under them.

Which is pathetic since its MY LAND (TM) not theirs. Go buy your own land and graze and quit being a welfare cheat.


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In the eyes of the law, he probably has a compelling legal argument. Most venues have archaic laws on the book allowing for adverse possession.

You can't adverse possess government property.


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 motyak wrote:
Free speech zones? What?

edit: ha I just googled it, that sounds so silly. Why do you need a special zone to have free speech in it? When you step outside the zone can you suddenly not speak against a government or something? Also, can you post a link to what the free speech zones have to do with this? I can't find it...I fail at google apparently.

yea that is pretty stupid.

Shoshone actually, I think.