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 Arbitrator wrote:
Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.

Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.

The problem is that many of the things that were cheap inflated along with incomes. GW inflated much, much faster and in large sudden jumps.

Plus they changed over to a way of thinking like they feel they deserve our money for being such a great company making the "best figures in the industry". They are completely narcissistic now, rather than being in touch with the people who made them huge in the first place.

 Zarynterk wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.

Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.

GW stuff has gone up WAY more than inflation.

GW price hikes are like in minimum wage jumped $2 per hour all at once, every couple of years.

 Zarynterk wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.

Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.

Tell me, how much has the price of red herrings risen?

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Zarynterk wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.

Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.

GW stuff has gone up WAY more than inflation.

Make no mistake; what are we discusssing here? A company that makes little plastic miniatures and sells them for a ridiculous amount of money. Their operational costs and manufacturing costs are nothing in comparison to their ROI (return on investment). The question still stands; to buy or not to buy. I just don't see the benefit of stressing out over the costs, you can either afford the purchases or you can't and have to find other options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Zarynterk wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.

Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.

Tell me, how much has the price of red herrings risen?

To your "point" it doesn't detract from the argument at all. I simply said prices go up on everything, you either buy or don't buy. Why people feel this incessant need to complain about everything outside of their control boggles my mind.

 Zarynterk wrote:

Make no mistake; what are we discusssing here? A company that makes little plastic miniatures and sells them for a ridiculous amount of money. Their operational costs and manufacturing costs are nothing in comparison to their ROI (return on investment). The question still stands; to buy or not to buy. I just don't see the benefit of stressing out over the costs, you can either afford the purchases or you can't and have to find other options.

It's not about being able to afford it or not. The models have risen far beyond what is considered to be worth the price they're asking to a good chunk of people.

How many times must we drill this into people's heads?

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Zarynterk wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.

Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.

GW stuff has gone up WAY more than inflation.

While true, GW isn't just dealing with inflation. There are a lot of things that impact their costs and most of it looks like it's related to their operating costs (which are all the costs not related to making the models themselves). So things driving the price hikes are mostly lease agreements, insurance costs, running the sales department (which goes through a LOT of hiring/firing in the US) and probably a whole bunch more I'm not even thinking of. These things don't all follow up the average rate of inflation afterall.

The switch to the "single operator store" was a big blow for me. There used to be a store in the mall that was open regular hours; now, the local store is open 11 am to 6 pm Tuesday to Saturday. It really hurts the community in the area to have the store open a total of seven hours on the weekend. Never mind that it's not open after the workday ends.

I hate to criticize the guy because he's friendly and helpful and only a leeeeeetle bit uncomfortably pushy, but only having one person working per store makes the hobby a lot harder to stay into and fragments the community unnecessarily.

I parted with GW when they started winding up Specialist games over 10 years ago. Thats around the time I started Uni so I didn't have as much time anyway but even then prices were starting to get a bit sully and the magazine had decidedly less content and enjoyment value. I dabble in all sorts of things now and I'm not opposed to buying GW outright, but they offer very little of interest to me.

I really can't comprehend the manner in which the company has been run in the last 10 years. Price increases are one thing, but they are so aggressive with their IP and belligerent in their handling of independent stores trying to sell their stuff that I've come to the opinion they are toxic to the wider hobby. It's all very well saying they are popular and bring people in, but the cost of their obnoxiousness is a burden to the wider hobby particularly when they come knocking with their legal threats and trying to squeeze independent traders who they know are somewhat dependent on GW sales. The more independents can diversify and support themselves regardless of stocking GW the healthier the hobby.

Prices are prices, take it or leave it. But they way GW seem keen to barge competition around and unnecessarily pressurise independent traders is something I take issue with.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Zarynterk wrote:

Make no mistake; what are we discusssing here? A company that makes little plastic miniatures and sells them for a ridiculous amount of money. Their operational costs and manufacturing costs are nothing in comparison to their ROI (return on investment). The question still stands; to buy or not to buy. I just don't see the benefit of stressing out over the costs, you can either afford the purchases or you can't and have to find other options.

It's not about being able to afford it or not. The models have risen far beyond what is considered to be [b]worth the price they're asking to a good chunk of people.[/b]How many times must we drill this into people's heads?

Anecdotal evidence at best; a good chunk of people? I have to tell you, the local gaming store in my town can't seem to keep units on the shelf and there is a GW store within 15 mins from it as well as two other local stores within 30 mins. So my evidence would lead me to believe, a good chunk of the people I see pay the money.

Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.

 azreal13 wrote:
Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.

Revenue was up in FY 2013 (2012-2013) was over FY 2012 though. FY 2014's holiday season lagged, but so did the revenue streams of all retailers and a single year isn't enough to declare a pattern yet.

 azreal13 wrote:
Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.

Probably the fact that unemployment remains high in many countries, real wages have dropped and inflation has devalued currency in the major consumerist nations. As an example, in the US, the company I work for (which is owned by one of the largest corporations in the country) has had a wage, raise and hiring freeze in place for almost two years now. I am effectively making less money today than I was seven years ago, even though my actual salary is higher. The value of the dollar has dropped, and the prices of everything has gone up. Thus, I have less disposable income than I did in 2007. I am not alone in this scenario.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.

Revenue was up in FY 2013 (2012-2013) was over FY 2012 though. FY 2014's holiday season lagged, but so did the revenue streams of all retailers and a single year isn't enough to declare a pattern yet.

I was just about to post this myself; thank you sir. And the point about all retailers is absolutely correct; its not just GW but many companies. People have a simple decision, is the product worth the price increases; yes or no. I pay the money, some people don't, its simply a matter of how much is too much to the specific person.

Not adjusted for inflation, price rises etc, and not by anything like a significant amount to be categorised as growth.

This has been done to death. A sudden, significant, unexpected drop in revenue after what can only be realistically be called flat income for a number of years is not a good sign. Factor in that many had predicted this would happen in exactly the manner it did and that GW/Kirby were unable to offer anything more substantive than "our shops have been closed more because of the one man model" as a reason and it looks worse.

It wasn't a year either, this was the interim report for the six months to the start of Dec 13, suffice to say a lot of people are going to be looking very keenly at the proper end of year report in a couple of months.

One cannot cite prevailing economic conditions that have been happening for a number of years and are now beginning to recover as a reason when their income didn't seem to suffer significantly when things were far worse either.

Thanks for reminding me Azreal, when I get home tonight I'll adjust the numbers I have for inflation and take another look. I'll save any potential arguing until after I do that.

Seems like most peoples frustration with GW comes from playing 40k. If you look at the question in the poll 7 of 16 questions you could vote on deal with 40k.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thanks for reminding me Azreal, when I get home tonight I'll adjust the numbers I have for inflation and take another look. I'll save any potential arguing until after I do that.

It's already been done mate, and unless you want to get pedantic over a million or two here or there, their income, until 2013, has essentially been flat for a number of years.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Rautakanki wrote:
So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.

Daemon Legion? I don't remember that codex. Was it an Eye of Terror thing I'm forgetting about?

Storm of Chaos for WHFB.

At the time the list made Daemons viable as a force on their own (before, their ward save was removed by magical attacks). It had several units that were no longer supported (I want my Plague Chariots back!), but this is understandable given GW's way of doing things.

Then came the Daemons of Chaos book. So in all fairness I'm not entirely sure what Rautakanki is so hung up upon, unless his entire army comprised of Heralds on Plague Chariots and Plague Riders welded to 50mm bases.

Though I do feel the pain with LATD, Cult of Slaanesh and Kroot Mercenaries...

That book wasn't even rumoured to come back then, so what I gathered was, "screw you and your army it's no longer legal haha lol".

I don't hate GW these days, as incompetence doesn't provoke my wrath, it's not like EA who destroyed multiple excellent game studios just as a part of some lameass business strategy. Heck. Considering that I play Orks I'm pretty happy as the models are completely superior to what they were then, the rules have some things I wanted a lot back then such as running, objective based missions, usable fortification rules, challenges (even as they screw me)...

 azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thanks for reminding me Azreal, when I get home tonight I'll adjust the numbers I have for inflation and take another look. I'll save any potential arguing until after I do that.

It's already been done mate, and unless you want to get pedantic over a million or two here or there, their income, until 2013, has essentially been flat for a number of years.

I hear people say it's been done but I've never seen it, so I'm going to do it so I can see it with my own eyes. Nothing personal but I don't just believe everything that's presented as fact online.

Well, don't forget to account for price rises too.

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, don't forget to account for price rises too.

Might as well tell me to account for new products while you're at it. Companies raise prices all the time to help rising costs, taking that out of the equation has costs increasing but not revenue which creates a bias of the information.

Plus to properly account for it you'd basically need an itemized list of how much money each item increased by and how many of each they sold so you can properly adjust the revenue, anything else and you're just shooting in the dark. Same for new products. And unless you know where I can get that kind of internal information without breaking into Nottingham inflation is the only thing I can properly account for without basically making information up.

Or we can simply operate under the premise "it is what it is" and go from there. Much like everything else, we can't have the world that we wish for or would like, we take the one we have. Same thing with GW; you either take what is or is not. Hoping for something, or lamenting why something isn't a certain way is unhealthy.

Money aside, like I said: my gradual lack of interest in 40K is due to how modern GW is interacting with us as the players, versus how they interacted towards the players ten years ago. Which sucks, as I have been with 40K for nearly 20 years now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, don't forget to account for price rises too.

Might as well tell me to account for new products while you're at it. Companies raise prices all the time to help rising costs, taking that out of the equation has costs increasing but not revenue which creates a bias of the information.

Plus to properly account for it you'd basically need an itemized list of how much money each item increased by and how many of each they sold so you can properly adjust the revenue, anything else and you're just shooting in the dark. Same for new products. And unless you know where I can get that kind of internal information without breaking into Nottingham inflation is the only thing I can properly account for without basically making information up.

Exactly my point. What you're undertaking to do is impossible with the access to information we have as general plebs.

The fact is that their income has been broadly similar for a number of years, it has not risen in line with their price increases (which are typically outside of inflation by a significant margin) nor can you really calculate what inflation is exactly because it will vary depending on what part of the globe you're looking at. Neither has their profit increased notably despite the ongoing cost cutting measures they've implemented.

Then we hit the first set of figures of 2013/14, and there is a notable drop in revenue and a corresponding drop in profit. There's lots of ways to spin it, and it is of course pure speculation for most of us, but the best fit is simply declining sales volume, masked by price rises and cost cutting until the point of price elasticity has been reached for a appreciable number of people coupled with very little meat left on the bone to cut.

The next report is going to be the most telling, if it shows better figures, then things will probably stabilise, if it is in the same vein as the interim, then that could spell real trouble.

 azreal13 wrote:
Exactly my point. What you're undertaking to do is impossible with the access to information we have as general plebs.

And thus and proof of GW being so flat that they're failing doesn't exist like claimed. Don't ask people to do the impossible if you can't do it yourself, nor try to back your claims with the non-existant information.

 azreal13 wrote:
The fact is that their income has been broadly similar for a number of years, it has not risen in line with their price increases (which are typically outside of inflation by a significant margin) nor can you really calculate what inflation is exactly because it will vary depending on what part of the globe you're looking at. Neither has their profit increased notably despite the ongoing cost cutting measures they've implemented.

Price increases are also not uniform across their entire line either so any numbers people throw around on how much things actually went up will be skewed. If 1-2 products go up by a lot, but others go up by a smaller margin then we're going to be skewed higher than would be representative of what they're going to take in.

 azreal13 wrote:
Then we hit the first set of figures of 2013/14, and there is a notable drop in revenue and a corresponding drop in profit. There's lots of ways to spin it, and it is of course pure speculation for most of us, but the best fit is simply declining sales volume, masked by price rises and cost cutting until the point of price elasticity has been reached for a appreciable number of people coupled with very little meat left on the bone to cut.

While true that GW did have a drop in revenue, without a drop being repeated we don't have a real trend to base things off of.

 azreal13 wrote:
The next report is going to be the most telling, if it shows better figures, then things will probably stabilise, if it is in the same vein as the interim, then that could spell real trouble.

I agree, it could, but only if it continues into FY2015. Spring is GW's slow period (weather is getting nicer, people spend more time outside and less inside on their hobby stuff) and that means that they're less likely to see a major recovery, but that still doesn't make it a trend. We don't have the kind of data to tell if Christmas 2013 was a fluke or a pattern for them yet.

Less hate more disappointment

I dont understand a lot of there decisions but it must be some kinda European thing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Exactly my point. What you're undertaking to do is impossible with the access to information we have as general plebs.

And thus and proof of GW being so flat that they're failing doesn't exist like claimed. Don't ask people to do the impossible if you can't do it yourself, nor try to back your claims with the non-existant information.

 azreal13 wrote:
The fact is that their income has been broadly similar for a number of years, it has not risen in line with their price increases (which are typically outside of inflation by a significant margin) nor can you really calculate what inflation is exactly because it will vary depending on what part of the globe you're looking at. Neither has their profit increased notably despite the ongoing cost cutting measures they've implemented.

Price increases are also not uniform across their entire line either so any numbers people throw around on how much things actually went up will be skewed. If 1-2 products go up by a lot, but others go up by a smaller margin then we're going to be skewed higher than would be representative of what they're going to take in.

 azreal13 wrote:
Then we hit the first set of figures of 2013/14, and there is a notable drop in revenue and a corresponding drop in profit. There's lots of ways to spin it, and it is of course pure speculation for most of us, but the best fit is simply declining sales volume, masked by price rises and cost cutting until the point of price elasticity has been reached for a appreciable number of people coupled with very little meat left on the bone to cut.

While true that GW did have a drop in revenue, without a drop being repeated we don't have a real trend to base things off of.

 azreal13 wrote:
The next report is going to be the most telling, if it shows better figures, then things will probably stabilise, if it is in the same vein as the interim, then that could spell real trouble.

I agree, it could, but only if it continues into FY2015. Spring is GW's slow period (weather is getting nicer, people spend more time outside and less inside on their hobby stuff) and that means that they're less likely to see a major recovery, but that still doesn't make it a trend. We don't have the kind of data to tell if Christmas 2013 was a fluke or a pattern for them yet.

*sigh*

I'm not getting involved in all this again.

Believe what you want to believe, if you are interested in my thoughts in the matter, browse through any of my posts on the subject from the threads in N+R or General Discussion.

From about two months ago.

I did a small comparison of prices in the early 2000s and what prices adjusted for inflation should be now and the price increases are generally way above inflation, although it varies markedly between different models which shows that the level of price increases are completely arbitrary.

What's really driving up price increases however are the mugs that pay for limited edition codexes for double the price for an extra dust jacket. The message this sends to GW is that their customers are prepared to pay a ridiculous premium for very little. It seems as though everything released now has a limited edition option. This in turn drives other prices up as GW realises just what it can get away with [e.g. 5 man kits with 10 head options and 20 weapon loadouts along with a 50% price increase]. Prices will stabilise when customers stop buying and not beforehand, and if you want it to change, maybe you need to be more discerning abut what you will and will not pay for.