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The space born battle is won without a single loss of a Tau ship.

Wait.
Really?
The Imperium can't go to the shops without a devastating fleet battle where some battleship heroically sacrifices itself and detonates its warp reactors...

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
The space born battle is won without a single loss of a Tau ship.

With who?

 Sasori wrote:

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
The space born battle is won without a single loss of a Tau ship.

With who?

The Tyranids. Under the command of O'Shaserra they engaged the Hive fleet and through some brilliant tactical genius decimated the Hive fleets ability to communicate with each other and picked the rest of with no losses to the Tau fleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Is their plot armor ever explained why they beat every enemy without practically trying that would give other races pause?

A hive fleet invaded Iyanden, the Eldar are millions of years old with technology far out performing anything of the younger races and the hive fleet all but gutted that craftworld.

Actully, the tau had quite a bit of trouble with the tyranids, but managed to beat them because they (they tau) kept swtiching tactics and tech to confuse the tyranids. A few imperial ships also suddenly poped out of the wrap (they should have been there a while ago while the Imperium was fighting tau, but hey) and that helps the tau because it was harder for the 'nids to adapt to two different armies.

And they sacrificed their Kroot auxiliaries to do it.

It's for the Greater Good.

The Tau will inherit the ashes once the major players have extinguished themselves. Then only the Necrons and Orks will be able to stand against them.

The Tau don't need plot armor. Have you played against them on the table?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 Jinx Magiga wrote:
Well,the problem is,the Tau can't afford losing.
If the Tau get a major loss in the fluff,they're gone,that's how small their empire is.
As such,it's nearly impossible for them to lose,especially against the nids,that'd be worst case scenario for them,they'd be utterly wiped out.
They've kinda got the ultimate plot armor,they can only lose badly while attacking

I disagree. I think that the Tau empire is small compared to others, but they just don't have strength in numbers, but rely on the exceptional skill of the Earth Caste to make the best technologically possible weaponry. The Tau would not be wiped out by just loosing a major battle, I don't think that the space pope would go all in and throw the whole army in (this never happens in the fluff).

Why would Nids be the worst case scenario? Personally, I think that they would be easier. You send some Crisis suits that have Melta/Plas to go and do as much damage as possible to the big guys that aren't flying, and then take Bursttides for the bid flying baddies, and Iontides for the hordes. It wouldn't be easy, but IMO it wouldn't be hard by any means.

Take this post with a grain of salt. I am no Nids expert, just IMO

Seeing as you don't know the nid fluff,i'll make a short explanation to you why that won't work,the nids out adapt those,yes,those crisis suits with Melta/Plasma may destroy the first wave of Synapse Creatures (should they get past the innumerable waves of gaunt on the ground or gargoyles in the sky,but the second wave will have adapted,their hides will be made out of different materials.
With those hides the nids could then take Melta/Plasma head on and their guard(Note- Hive Tyrants aren't just accompanied by tyrant guards,if necessary they can be accompanied by anything from rippers to dozens of carnifexes) would have been changed so that they could easily slay their previous assaillants.
In fact,during the last battle between Tau and Tyranids,their gaunts adapted to the point were Pulse weaponry didn't affect them,the only reason the Tau were able to hold them off was because their world still had older weaponry to push the waves that adapted back,that didn't last long though because the nids than adapted to those weapons aswell.

We even have records of Kroot and Hormagaunts fighting in the Jungles of that world,the first wave got tangled up in the plants and were easily slain by the Kroot,the second wave adapted so that they got through the thick jungle effortlessly,however they had adapted slightly too far and their combat abilities no longer were good enough to best the Kroot.
The third wave however made it through the jungle and slaughtered the Kroot with minimal losses,the only reason those were then driven back was because their limber bodies used to navigate through the jungle couldn't face the Pulse weaponry of the Tau,however,with the Kroot wiped out,they could focus completely on the Tau weaponry.

The nids however,because they were adapting so quickly (a mistake from that swarm,which as known from nid fluff,won't happen again) expended biomass at an incredibly fast rate,which,while doable for the swarms,left them without the ability to quickly replace Synapse Creatures,once the Tau realised that,they targeted those and managed to drive the swarm back.
Even then however,they only won because Imperials arrived and took out the remainder of the swarm. (which caused the Imperials to get arrogant,seeing as they managed to destroy a foe that the tau had struggled so hard to defeat,while in reality they took out the remainder of a greatly weakened swarm,later causing the Imperium to underestimate the Tau,but that is a story for another time)

That,however won't work again,the Tyranids have learned and while the Imperium might strike a deal because they don't want to use their thinly-spread resources to engage in a full blown conflict,the Nids would drown the Tau in their own blood

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
It's the fact those Tau will win when if that same amount of Tyranids invaded the Imperium they would suffer terrible losses. Lose ancient ships and irreplaceable technology. Probably burn a world or two.

And there is part of the problem with the IOM. Most of their tech is irreplaceable. Attrition will eventually grind them down. With the religious veneration of technology, things will not get better for the IOM. This is part of why I did not chose them for my first army.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Yet the Tau do it with absolutely no loss of ships. I find their lack of defeats to be counter to the grim dark setting of 40k.

And I think this ray of light in the darkness is part of what I like about the Tau. As someone just getting started in 40K (and yet to play my first battle) I really like that there is someone out there that is not all doom and gloom. The Tau have technology that keeps advancing, they don't wipe out everyone they come across, and the server a Greater Good (technically.) I nice change from pretty much everyone else. Plus they look so cool. I actually would love to see them become better allies with the IOM.

I can't wait to actually get them on the table.

Thanks,
Duncan

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Is their plot armor ever explained why they beat every enemy without practically trying that would give other races pause?

A hive fleet invaded Iyanden, the Eldar are millions of years old with technology far out performing anything of the younger races and the hive fleet all but gutted that craftworld.

Hive fleet Kraken however,was far stronger than the hive fleet that faced the Tau,both in numbers and tactics,moreso however,the Shadow in the Warp was what made it hard for the Eldar.
Being the highly psychic race that they are,the shadow hit them harder than any imperial attack could,making them almost unable to use their psychic powers.

One thing that should also be noted is that a large part of the Iyanden fleet left Iyanden along Prince Yriel,once Yriel returned however,the Tyranid Fleet was quickly destroyed.
The Previous nid codex also said this(which is either gone from the current one or i can't find it): "If the Kraken had struck further to the south,it would surely have wiped the fledgeling Tau Empire out of existence."

The tau also chemically castrate (or at least in other editions) those that join their Empire. Nor can an auxiliary ever attain a high rank, so much for the Greater Good and everyone working together. They are almost more fascist species in the galaxy, again looking through 6e codex I see their darker elements have been removed, which further distances them from the rest of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
The tau also chemically castrate (or at least in other editions) those that join their Empire. Nor can an auxiliary ever attain a high rank, so much for the Greater Good and everyone working together. They are almost more fascist species in the galaxy, again looking through 6e codex I see their darker elements have been removed, which further distances them from the rest of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium.

First one, not true. The only evidence of that is the DOW dark crusade, which is dubious at best. Auxiliaries can achieve a high rank, it's just that the tau are the "first among equals" That means that they will still receive respect ect, it's just that two people of equal rank, and one is a tau, than the tau is higher.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
It's the fact those Tau will win when if that same amount of Tyranids invaded the Imperium they would suffer terrible losses. Lose ancient ships and irreplaceable technology. Probably burn a world or two. Yet the Tau do it with absolutely no loss of ships. I find their lack of defeats to be counter to the grim dark setting of 40k.

This is literally the point of the Tau fluff. They aren't grimdark. They contrast the current imperium and remind us of the imperium from the crusades.

Yep, the tau are a foil to the rest of the races.

I suppose you've never heard of the harvesting of Ka'mais(sp?)?

The Tyranids were hours away from destroying Ka'mais. Then, the Necron Tomb World on Ka'mais' moon awakened, and proceeded to rout the Tyranids.

Ka'mais set up an elaborate and bombastic welcoming party for their rescuers before the Necrons made planetfall.

The Necrons proceeded to kill every single Tau on Ka'mais.

And there is a story in the DE codex as well about an entire Tau world getting 'a cultural exchange' with the Dark Eldar.
The Dark Eldar pull some amusing tricks on the Tau before that though. They also defeated the Tyranids attacking the Tau.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/War_of_Dark_Revelations

I love it when the Tau naivety smacks them in the face. They have so much to learn about the galaxy. It's a cold scary place out there...

 dementedwombat wrote:
I love it when the Tau naivety smacks them in the face. They have so much to learn about the galaxy. It's a cold scary place out there...

I only hope when that naivety goes they get grimdark as well.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
The tau also chemically castrate (or at least in other editions) those that join their Empire. Nor can an auxiliary ever attain a high rank, so much for the Greater Good and everyone working together. They are almost more fascist species in the galaxy, again looking through 6e codex I see their darker elements have been removed, which further distances them from the rest of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium.

First one, not true. The only evidence of that is the DOW dark crusade, which is dubious at best. Auxiliaries can achieve a high rank, it's just that the tau are the "first among equals" That means that they will still receive respect ect, it's just that two people of equal rank, and one is a tau, than the tau is higher.

You may not like it but the first one is true as Dow is cannon, just not that ending, it just shows the lengths the tau are willing to go to if they feel it's the greater good

40K has no canon.

It has a fethload of cannons, though. There's even a giant Tau moon-cannon in Soulstorm.

When one talks about the "canon" ending of a video game, they're talking about what the designers of the game have written for their notes on that game and the sequel.

Case in point: Knights of the Old Republic: although you can make Revan either gender and choose to be Light-side, Dark-side or somewhere in the middle, the "canon" that surrounds that character dictates that he is male, is a reformed Light-side Jedi, saves Bastila, and destroys his former ally, Darth Malak.

Knights of the Old Republic 2: Canonically, the Jedi Exile is female, formerly Revan's lover, a Balanced-leaning-towards-Light-Side Jedi, and kills all three Sith Lords... despite the fact that you can choose to play the Exile as a male, and can reference Revan being male or female in certain conversations.

I never knew that about KOTOR...
Oddly enough I played Revan as male but the exile as female anyway...

 Psienesis wrote:
40K has no canon.

It has a fethload of cannons, though. There's even a giant Tau moon-cannon in Soulstorm.

DERE STILL AIN'T ENUFF DAKKA!

There is *never* enough Dakka!
Never...

I thought DoW's Tau ending was just speculation by a human narrator, anyways, wasn't it?

If it had been speculation by a Tau narrator, then we wouldn't be able to understand what-the-feth s/he was saying.

 Jinx Magiga wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 Jinx Magiga wrote:
Well,the problem is,the Tau can't afford losing.
If the Tau get a major loss in the fluff,they're gone,that's how small their empire is.
As such,it's nearly impossible for them to lose,especially against the nids,that'd be worst case scenario for them,they'd be utterly wiped out.
They've kinda got the ultimate plot armor,they can only lose badly while attacking

I disagree. I think that the Tau empire is small compared to others, but they just don't have strength in numbers, but rely on the exceptional skill of the Earth Caste to make the best technologically possible weaponry. The Tau would not be wiped out by just loosing a major battle, I don't think that the space pope would go all in and throw the whole army in (this never happens in the fluff).

Why would Nids be the worst case scenario? Personally, I think that they would be easier. You send some Crisis suits that have Melta/Plas to go and do as much damage as possible to the big guys that aren't flying, and then take Bursttides for the bid flying baddies, and Iontides for the hordes. It wouldn't be easy, but IMO it wouldn't be hard by any means.

Take this post with a grain of salt. I am no Nids expert, just IMO

Seeing as you don't know the nid fluff,i'll make a short explanation to you why that won't work,the nids out adapt those,yes,those crisis suits with Melta/Plasma may destroy the first wave of Synapse Creatures (should they get past the innumerable waves of gaunt on the ground or gargoyles in the sky,but the second wave will have adapted,their hides will be made out of different materials.
With those hides the nids could then take Melta/Plasma head on and their guard(Note- Hive Tyrants aren't just accompanied by tyrant guards,if necessary they can be accompanied by anything from rippers to dozens of carnifexes) would have been changed so that they could easily slay their previous assaillants.
In fact,during the last battle between Tau and Tyranids,their gaunts adapted to the point were Pulse weaponry didn't affect them,the only reason the Tau were able to hold them off was because their world still had older weaponry to push the waves that adapted back,that didn't last long though because the nids than adapted to those weapons aswell.

We even have records of Kroot and Hormagaunts fighting in the Jungles of that world,the first wave got tangled up in the plants and were easily slain by the Kroot,the second wave adapted so that they got through the thick jungle effortlessly,however they had adapted slightly too far and their combat abilities no longer were good enough to best the Kroot.
The third wave however made it through the jungle and slaughtered the Kroot with minimal losses,the only reason those were then driven back was because their limber bodies used to navigate through the jungle couldn't face the Pulse weaponry of the Tau,however,with the Kroot wiped out,they could focus completely on the Tau weaponry.

The nids however,because they were adapting so quickly (a mistake from that swarm,which as known from nid fluff,won't happen again) expended biomass at an incredibly fast rate,which,while doable for the swarms,left them without the ability to quickly replace Synapse Creatures,once the Tau realised that,they targeted those and managed to drive the swarm back.
Even then however,they only won because Imperials arrived and took out the remainder of the swarm. (which caused the Imperials to get arrogant,seeing as they managed to destroy a foe that the tau had struggled so hard to defeat,while in reality they took out the remainder of a greatly weakened swarm,later causing the Imperium to underestimate the Tau,but that is a story for another time)

That,however won't work again,the Tyranids have learned and while the Imperium might strike a deal because they don't want to use their thinly-spread resources to engage in a full blown conflict,the Nids would drown the Tau in their own blood

However you are mixing up 2 different planets. The one you are discussing in the beginning of your post ends when the Tau pull out. Except for a single cadre who maganes to force the rest of the fleet to pull out. The Tau fleet then chases the Tyranids and is ambushed. The planet is little better then a giant rock.

When the IG and Tau team up is when the two forces are fighting and the Tyranids show up. By that time the Hive Fleet was so battered that the Imperial commander (wrongly) desided that the Tau were weak to be threateneed by such a small fleet.

The Tau appear to be a case however that the Tyranids feel is not worth the trouble. Rather then being unable to destroy them.

 Formosa wrote:


You may not like it but the first one is true as Dow is cannon, just not that ending, it just shows the lengths the tau are willing to go to if they feel it's the greater good

Eh no. The canon ending was the blood ravens won. Everyone else was killed.

The tau win was an 'alternative, non canon' ending from a third party, not gw.

In any case regarding the tau sad their great victories: what would be a major engagement for the tau, or a huge victory, would, if it was fought by the imperium, barely rate as a paragraph in the three thousand page tome 'battles of the eastern fringe, volume xlvii'.

Scale is the big thing. That hive fleet they bet without losing a ship? It might have been three ships for all we know. No doubt it was a crushing victory, for the tau, but for everyone else? Nothing major. So far all the tau have faced were isolated splinter fleets. The imperium deals with hundreds of these. A single character in the necrons codex controls more worlds (500 iirc) than the entire tau empire (130 at the time of the third sphere, let's say 150-200 now. Probably 150 - they lost dozens of worlds in the deist campaign).

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Is their plot armor ever explained why they beat every enemy without practically trying that would give other races pause?

A hive fleet invaded Iyanden, the Eldar are millions of years old with technology far out performing anything of the younger races and the hive fleet all but gutted that craftworld.

The explanation is that Tau learn a lot quicker than humans or Eldar. Everything a Tau scientist or engineer does, he does in a lifespan of 50 years. Meanwhile, humans who live twice that long or Eldar who literally live forever still haven't made a reliable, easy-to-use, mass-producible, powerful infantry weapon for their armies.

Tau are used to thinking outside of the box. Humans aren't. Eldar may not be capable of doing so. If they were, the galaxy would be a lot different by now.

Since the Eldar have been a dying race for over ten thousand years, maybe the story should continue with them actually dying off.

When you lived for 60million years, 10k is a mere blink in races eyes

The dark eldar moment, they have a lot to learn about the galexey and its inhabitants.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The explanation is that Tau learn a lot quicker than humans or Eldar. Everything a Tau scientist or engineer does, he does in a lifespan of 50 years. Meanwhile, humans who live twice that long or Eldar who literally live forever still haven't made a reliable, easy-to-use, mass-producible, powerful infantry weapon for their armies.

Tau are used to thinking outside of the box. Humans aren't. Eldar may not be capable of doing so. If they were, the galaxy would be a lot different by now.

Actually, the advantage of the Tau is their tight cooperation and not their learning rate. No Tau scientist or engineer will develop anything in his lifetime, he will only add something to an already existing project or he will lay the groundwork for a new thing but he probably won't see his idea going into the development phase. It is like building a house: the scientists of the longer living races would do it alone, because they have time; the Tau, on the other hand, would build it piece-by-peace through several (quickly changing) generations. This method has the advantage of being highly diversified as each generation has something new to add into the original concept so obstacles in the development won't stand for very long.

It isn't that the Tau is better at thinking outside of the box. But each time a scientist dies with his unfinished project, a new scientist will bring a new box.