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So.. I've been thinking about getting a new computer. I've always been a Mac guy.. but I'm thinking of switching back to PCs, mostly due to price. Right now I have a 3 year old Macbook Pro, but it's starting to show it's age.

I don't need a big gaming rig or anything like that, but I would like something that will be able to handle some light 3D sculpting and rendering. I was looking at Dell and I can get a their maxed out system for like $1200. A 27" iMac with similar stats would be like twice as much, but also has the built in monitor.. but still.

About 4 years ago my old mac died, and I got a dell to replace it.. it was ok, but a year later I got my Macbook to replace the dell.. mostly because my music and adobe apps were all mac based.. I had to redo most of my CDs on the PC side because for some reason a lot of the files wouldn't work right anymore. Now I have all my music in my iTunes cloud, and adobe apps are also all cloud based, so that's not as big of a deal. But it was quite a headache last time around.. so I'm hesitant that it will be again.. is it worth switching to a PC or would I be better off sticking with Macs?

And is Dell good, or are there any others I should look into? I hate when they fill up your hard drive with junk you don't want, and I'm too lazy to wipe and reinstall, and uninstalling what I don't want never seems to uninstall it all the way. I used to build my own (like 15 years ago), but it's been a while and I don't know what's good to get these days.. so I was going to go with a pre-built PC to save me the trouble... Any advice?

As long as you aren't doing visual design, get a PC. You get better stuff for the same cost, and if you build your own, you can get a great PC relatively cheaply.

Well that's the thing.. I am doing design I'm a web designer by trade, and I also do all of the design and printing for all of the boxes and and stuff for my games. But, I just can't really afford a new Mac.. so I can switch to a PC, or just deal with the slowness and save up for another year or so.

I've never used a mac, they any good?

yeah I think macs are great, I love using them.. but usually at least 50% more expensive than a PC. So I'm looking to get something new and cool, but cheap too cuz I'm poor.

 poppa G wrote:
I've never used a mac, they any good?

Only if the stock model comes with exactly what you want it to do and you never plan on upgrading or replacing any parts yourself. And want to pay for that 'convenience'.

Overall, a PC is better if you are willing to put in a little extra effort and its far far cheaper too. Especially if you buy parts individually.

You can easily make a superior machine that will last longer and be easily repaired/upgraded for a fraction of the cost of getting a Mac.

There are plenty of online tutorials for how to put together a PC. Its a great weekend project.


Alternatively, there are many online webstores where you can custom build a PC to get shipped to you fully assemble. Mix and match the parts you want for the exact performance specifications you want. Its a little more expensive than buying stock models though, but its fast.

Part of my problem with building my own PC is I start picking expensive stuff and next thing I know I have a $3000 gaming rig that will just be a photoshop machine

Looking at newegg.com.. it looks like CPUs have the graphics built in now too? Are they any good or am I really gonna need a video card too? I won't really be gaming with it, but I want good performance for some 3D sculpting and video editing. nothing too hardcore, but I just want to make sure it will perform...

I would recommend a video card. It doesn't have to be super powerful, but it will reduce the stress on the CPUs. Just get a cheap older model. You don't want to overheat like what happened to a Laptop I had when its video card started to go out.

 Necros wrote:
Looking at newegg.com.. it looks like CPUs have the graphics built in now too? Are they any good or am I really gonna need a video card too? I won't really be gaming with it, but I want good performance for some 3D sculpting and video editing. nothing too hardcore, but I just want to make sure it will perform...

The I series processors will do graphics processing on the chip, and do not need a dedicated graphics card. This is acceptable for everyday computing. You will do no gaming with these type of graphics but they are fine for web surfing and photoshop. The situation Grey Templar describes is atypical, my job has deployed literally hundreds of computers and laptops using only the I series graphics (including my own work laptop, which I have sadly been using for years).

However, the newer versions of the Adobe suite will offload onto a dedicated graphics card if present and supported, so you may want to go that route. Additionally if you're doing CAD, if your CPU is working as a GPU it's not using a least some of it's horsepower for rendering.

I would not buy a PC from Dell. I would recommend CyberpowerPC instead. However, try to focus on a good CPU if you are doing CAD; I dabble myself so went with the i7-4770K.

What exactly is your budget?

 poppa G wrote:
I've never used a mac, they any good?

They're not an improvement on windows in my experience. I built a hackintosh back when that first became a thing and it was, in my opinion, like using a highly polished linux build. Some things were really nice, like Adium with Growl, and installing and uninstalling apps was really sweet, and the wifi was kind of amazing - it "just worked" at a time when that was unusual - but there were also some things that were kinda sucky and counterintuitve.

On the other and, itunes on the mac was a wholly different experience. It is 100% the opposite of how it is on the PC. I imagine that's on purpose, just like Internet Explorer for Mac is horrifically bad. The adobe suite was exactly the same on both versions, don't believe the hype.

This was like, OSX leopard so I have no idea what it's like now.

I was hoping to stay under $1000 or maybe slightly over if it's worth it.. and this will depend on how much I can get for selling my macbook too.. a year or so ago gazelle.com or some other site like it was offering $1100 for it so I'll have to check what it's worth when I get home tonight.

I don't mind building it, but maybe if I could get a DIY package deal that would be good. I'd like to get an i7 and at least 16gb of ram. I don't really need a gaming PC but I might end up playing some games.. nothing hardcore though, I'm more of a console guy now in my old age and sucky back. But I want something that will last a few years before I need to upgrade again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and for 3D work, I probably won't do much of CAD but I've been using Blender for some minor 3D sculpting since it's free. I may invest in Zbrush some day when I feel like i'm good enough to spend the money on it.. I'd mostly just be doing it for 3D sculpting for miniatures. So would I want a hardcore gaming card for that? My macbook can barely handle it once you start having a bajillion or so vertices in your sculpt.

Would an ssd improve the performance in your mac book pro? Saving you money

Personally don't like windows 8 and would tell you to stick to OSX. Unless you choose to buy windows 7 which would be my preferred OS. (64bit)

Yes you will have to buy a graphics card and not use the onboard graphics if you want performance.

I would recommend though you build your own machine. If its your bread and butter then why hesitate in something thats crucial to you.


This is just a sample build you could look into specific's you would have to research yourself.

Windows 7 64bit
I5
GTX770
16gb memory
SSD

No, you don't need a hardcore gaming card. In fact, a hardcore gaming card will be less good at 3D rendering than a very similar card called a Quadro, which is inversely not so hot at gaming.

This is a good workstation desktop for what you describe. It's only 8gb out of the box but it's cheap and trivial to add more and it will take up to 32gb. It won't game very well. If you are rendering in OpenGL, this would be a good pick.

this would be a all-arounder that would game better, but would be less of a rendering machine for OpenGL. It would be faster for DirectX.

I was just looking at CyberpowerPC so I might just order one of their sub $1000 systems.. but.. yeesh, they have a ton of options. I'll still want to do some gaming, I like to fire up Diablo and Xcom now and then.

What's wrong with Windows 8? Is it just over-bloated? I have a windows 7 OEM install disc, I had that running on my Macbook. And I have formerly internal now external 1TB drive I was going to use if I build my own.. but I'd kind of like to keep that as my external backup, it's plugged into my wireless router.

Are monitors all HDMI nowadays? I have a nice 23" HD monitor, but it's DVI.. don't think it has a HDMI port, but it looks like all the video cards are HDMI now.

Most video cards will have DVI and HDMI. Some now have Displayport as well.

Windows 8 isn't the worst ever, now that Windows 8.1 is release, but it definitely is a step back from Windows 7. I wouldn't spend money to downgrade but all else being equal I would take 7.

Ouze speaks the truth here...

I'm a frequent buyer of CyberPowerPC as well and always been satisfied with their product.

Also, any of their sub-$1000 boxes will run Xcom and Diablo3 just fine.

EDIT: Stick with Windows 7 if possible too...

Windows 8.1 is still giving me fits (I've had to freaking take ownership over TrustedInstaller for some things... something you should NEVER have to do! )

Well, that spring special one comes out to $1117 upgraded to 16gb ram and a wireless card.. so I might go with that if I can get around $800 or so for my mac. but that's with the i5.. is it worth the extra $100+ to get an i7?

it's comes with windows 8.1 so I'll just stick with that.. worst case if I really hate it, I can wipe and install windows 7 instead.

 Necros wrote:
Well, that spring special one comes out to $1117 upgraded to 16gb ram and a wireless card.. so I might go with that if I can get around $800 or so for my mac. but that's with the i5.. is it worth the extra $100+ to get an i7?

You'll get different people to debate about i5 vs i7...

Frankly, I like the i5 better as it's a more stable chip and runs cooler than the i7. I could never tell any visual performance difference between i5 vs. i7... not to mention... it's much cheaper now.

it's comes with windows 8.1 so I'll just stick with that.. worst case if I really hate it, I can wipe and install windows 7 instead.

Give it the ol'college try.

Windows 8 is not bloatware it was just aimed at everybody having touchscreen technology. Which has failed miserably. It will take take 8.2 before it starts to become a step up from windows 7. Which shouldn't take that long.

Just to remember your OS version has to be 64bit or you wont be able to use anything over 4gb of memory. So that disc you have and serial number needs to be 64bit.

If possible do look into an SSD.

Yeah my windows 7 disc is 64 bit, but I'd rather try and stick with 8 and see how it goes.

Thanks for all the help I'm nerding out cuz I'm about to get a new toy. But it'll take 3-4 weeks to get here :( Hopefully I can get a worthwhile price for my mac.

I use both systems, Mac and Windows. XCom runs on my macbook, which is the 2009 aluminum unibody, and it only has a 9400m. Everything turned off/low, and resolution at about 1024 something, but it would work. I imagine other, more recent macs with i7 and the 320m/HD4000 will fare better.

Any reason to go Dell or any other pre-built computer store?
You can get an amazing rig for under 1k. You get a lot of cool deals on newegg from what I saw, so unless you're really not confortable assembling it, or don't have any friend who can assemble it, maybe you can find some local computer store with fair prices on the components that'll assemble it for like 50 bucks.

First things first, you'll need a monitor. Now, I don't know what resolution you'll be working with, but this will affect your gaming if you like eye candy. A "standard" 1920x1080 monitor will not require as much muscle as a 2560x1440 one (the difference in required specs can be huge). I'll assume you'll go the 1080p route.

An i5 will be more than enough for most stuff. The i7 would shine on Solidworks and other programs or games that can take advantage of the multithreading (4 cores, 8 threads). I think current gen (Haswell) have integrated Graphics which ought to be enough for light gaming, but no fancy effects. Google intel hd gaming (depending on the processor it can be a different IG, so you'll have to look what each Haswell CPU has).

Since you probably won't be overclocking I'd skip the K processors, and the more expensive motherboards. So, something like an Asrock B85 Killer and something like an i5 4440 will set you back some 220-250 dollars. Factor another 50 or so for 8 gb ddr3.

I must say, DO NOT GO CHEAP ON THE POWER SUPPLY. Seriously. So many things can go wrong here. Seasonic is top of the heap, but there are many good from Corsair, Antec, etc. And you don't need a 1000W one. Heck, you probably'll need something like a 500w. But remember that a good PSU will probably outlast your other components and it's something you can put on another PC in 5 or so years.

The GPU, you have a lot of good choices for under 200 that will work really well on 1920x1080. Rule of thumb, it's always better to have a single beefier card than two weaker ones in Crossfire/SLI. Drivers and whatnot can get really frustrating, and glitches in games are no fun.

There are a lot of variables to consider for me to really say, "Buy this setup". You can help me narrow it by starting with the kind of monitor you'll be using, what kind of games you like, if you want to play battlefield 4 maxed out or just enjoy some casual gaming...

For example, my PC rig is a 1920x1080 led IPS panel from LG. I play most games I want almost maxed out - Sleeping Dogs, XCOM, Bioshock Infinite - with no noticeable glitches and framerate drops. I'm using a setup with a Q9300 (a 4 core CPU overclocked to 3.0 ghz, that is nearly 6 years old), 4gb Ram ddr2 (oc'd to 1066, I think this is my main problem in gaming) and a GTX 580 (a gaming card nearly three generations old).

A 200 euro GPU would be on level or over my 580, and I think that a CPU like a top i3/low i5 will kick the crap out of my CPU. Ram I don't even want to talk about... :(

Well I just ordered from Cyberpower. I went with the Spring Secial 2, i5, upgraded to 16mb of ram and a different case and wireless card. And I went with the default video card since it was a free upgrade, so that's a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 2GB GDDR5 PCIe 3.0 x16 Video Card (EVGA Superclocked)... don't know what that means but it sounds good.

Price $1133, but I found a 5% off coupon code online, so it came to $1076, and I'll get to save another 1.5% with my Samuel L Jackson Capital One Quicksilver card. And I'm gonna get $850 for my Macbook So I got a sweet new PC for $210!

Actually amazed you sold your Mac for so much! Frankly I would've preferred to assemble individually since it is a high price for an i5 and a GTX 750...
And your warranty is over the PC as long as you don't change it, whereas individually bought components even if assembled in store would have their own warranties - in some cases (some GPUs for example) it can be up to 10 years (I've seen people RMA their GPUs and get either a better version or a next-gen card).

If you want sent me over the spec list. Don't rush your decision. I'm sorry and I don't mean to discourage you, but pre-assembled pc's are often a very bad deal, even with the discounts.

I dunno, I think it seemed like a good deal.. and I want to get rid of my mac soon because I read there's some new processors coming out and I bet my price will drop when that happens. And it seems like a good case and all, so it will be a good base to build off of and upgrade here and there as needed in a couple years. I tried looking for similar pieces at newegg.com and was getting higher prices, more like $1500.

But here's all the specs it has...

CAS: CYBERPOWERPC X-Saber w/ USB 3.0, Large Side Panel Window [+16] (Black with Blue LED)
CD: LG 12X Internal Blu-ray Drive & DVDRW, 3D Playback Combo Drive (BLACK COLOR)
COOLANT: Standard Coolant
CPU: Intel(R) Core™ i5-4670K 3.40 GHz 6MB Intel Smart Cache LGA1150 (All Venom OC Certified)
CS_FAN: Default case fans
FAN: Asetek 510LC 120mm Liquid Cooling CPU Cooler - Enhance Cooling Performance (Single Standard 120MM Fan)
FLASHMEDIA: INTERNAL 12in1 Flash Media Reader/Writer (BLACK COLOR)
HDD: 1TB SATA-III 6.0Gb/s 32MB Cache 7200RPM HDD (Single Drive)
IUSB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
KEYBOARD: AZZA Delta Gaming Keyboard w/ Anti-Ghosting & red backlight
MEMORY: 16GB (8GBx2) DDR3/1600MHz Dual Channel Memory [+89] (Corsair or Major Brand)
MOTHERBOARD: ASUS Z87-K ATX w/ GbLAN, 2 PCIe x16 (1 Gen3, 1 Gen2), 2 PCIe x1, 3 PCI
MOUSE: AZZA Alpha 1600 DPI Gaming Mouse
NETWORK: Onboard Gigabit LAN Network
OS: * Microsoft(R) Windows 8.1 (64-bit Edition) + Office 365 FREE 30 Days Trial
POWERSUPPLY: 600 Watts - Standard 80 Plus Certified Power Supply - SLI/CrossFireX Ready
SOUND: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
VIDEO: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 2GB GDDR5 PCIe 3.0 x16 Video Card (EVGA Superclocked)
WNC: GIGABYTE GC-WB867D-I 802.11AC Wi-Fi up to 867 Mbps + Bluetooth 4.0 Combo w/ Dual Antenna PCI-E Adapter

You sure that PSU is big enough for all of that?

That's a very good point H.B.M.C. - If it's a good brand 600w it'll hold, however I don't know how well it would overclock, and the purpose of a K processor and a Z87 board is to OC.

Instead of the 750 (EXCEPT, if it was the TI version), I'd go for the R7 260x at the same price. The 750 is very easy going, low power consumption but I don't think it'll cut it above low/medium on 1080. I could be wrong, there's a big difference between looking at charts and synthetic benches and real-life performance.

Necros what's the sellers' policy regarding upgrades? Can you later install an SSD? They didn't seem to be that badly priced there, and trust me, you would notice a difference. On my macbook I open Photoshop CS6 in about 5 seconds. Best ATM would be 120gb Samsung EVO - not too expensive and it'll hold the OS and some programs, while games and the like can go to a secondary HDD.

I think a 650 watt PSU from a good vendor is adequate, but only just. The 750 TI will want 300 watts at full load, the CPU will want under 70 wayys at full load - I think you're fine. Since it's under warranty, I wouldn't worry, and I don't think they're going to allow builds that don't work out of the door.

I myself would not buy anything less than 850 anymore, but I run a raid array with many disks and I also like to have have a very big safety net.

So far as i5 vs i7, if you game and only game i5 is definitely what you want, there is no reason to spend the extra cash for an i7 which will give you no benefits. I myself went i7 because I do some 3d modelling and video rendering work now and then.

On the build I just made I got a 240gb Samsung EVO and it's amazing. I always have a ton of tabs open in chrome all the time, and now when I boot up, they just pop open, bloop, done. No load times. I just tested CS6 with a stopwatch, 4.5 seconds from click till good to go.

 Ouze wrote:
... there is no reason to spend the extra cash for an i7 which will give you no benefits...

... yet. No benefits yet.

There's no reason to have a pair of TITANS in SLI either. Yet.

 Ouze wrote:
I think a 650 watt PSU from a good vendor is adequate, but only just. The 750 TI will want 300 watts at full load, the CPU will want under 70 wayys at full load - I think you're fine. Since it's under warranty, I wouldn't worry, and I don't think they're going to allow builds that don't work out of the door.

I myself would not buy anything less than 850 anymore, but I run a raid array with many disks and I also like to have have a very big safety net.

So far as i5 vs i7, if you game and only game i5 is definitely what you want, there is no reason to spend the extra cash for an i7 which will give you no benefits. I myself went i7 because I do some 3d modelling and video rendering work now and then.

On the build I just made I got a 240gb Samsung EVO and it's amazing. I always have a ton of tabs open in chrome all the time, and now when I boot up, they just pop open, bloop, done. No load times. I just tested CS6 with a stopwatch, 4.5 seconds from click till good to go.

(from http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/nvidia_geforce_gtx_750_and_750_ti_review,5.html)

Power Consumption

Let's have a look at how much power draw we measure with this graphics card installed. The methodology: We have a device constantly monitoring the power draw from the PC. We simply stress the GPU, not the processor. The before and after wattage will tell us roughly how much power a graphics card is consuming under load. Our test system is based on a power hungry six-core Intel Core i7-3960X Extreme Edition Sandy Bridge-E based setup on the X79 chipset platform. This setup is overclocked to 4.60 GHz on all cores. Next to that we have energy saving functions disabled for this motherboard and processor (to ensure consistent benchmark results). We'll be calculating the GPU power consumption here, not the total PC power consumption.

Measured power consumption GTX 750 card

System in IDLE = 120 W
System Wattage with GPU in FULL Stress = 186W
Difference (GPU load) = 66W
Add average IDLE wattage ~10W
Subjective obtained GPU power consumption = ~ 76 Watts

300 Watts is probably what my 4890 needed

The i7 is future proof and if he doesn't plan on upgrading it's a safe bet. I frankly have more issues with him having that PSU and the K (unlocked) processor and that motherboard. That is for OC, and OC isn't covered by the warranty :b

850W will last you a long, long time if it's from a good manufacturer. I'd go that way if I wanted SLI with two power-hungry cards and a souped up CPU.

The SSD however, is something I wouldn't give up. The performance gain for the price is just scary. Of course it'll do close to nothing for games (bar faster area loading, and even then it's if they are installed directly on it, from what I gather) but in general responsiveness of the OS, it's one of the biggest leap in recent years.

And the problem isn't the Watts it eats up now, but when the thermal dissipation (old age, dust, outside temperature) starts degrading, the PSU will have to deal the same power in increased temperatures (hence it would be good to know the manufacturer to check if it's good for that load up to 50/60 degrees or something).

@ HMBC : Especially if it's two Titan Black Edition

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
... there is no reason to spend the extra cash for an i7 which will give you no benefits...

... yet. No benefits yet.

There's no reason to have a pair of TITANS in SLI either. Yet.

Yes there is, bragging rights.

hmm.. well I didn't want to get a SSD because they're pricey.. I thought I'd wait a couple years and get one cheaper or with more space for the same general prices we have now. And then for the power supply 600 did seem low, but I thought if I felt like I needed more I could always upgrade that later.

I'm not gonna be doing any hardcore gaming, just the occasional game of diablo or starcraft, and then the rest will be general stuff, photoshopping and some light 3D sculpting with Blender.

I am going to need to make a change with my order though, since I picked a case with blue lights, but my keyboard and mouse will light up red.. that's not gonna match so I guess I'll switch to the red case. Are you able to turn those lights off BTW? I think it's kinda silly, but I guess the kids dig it