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 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm saying that even though hitting a side facing means you resolve against the side armour value, resolving against the side armour value doesn't mean you hit a side facing and that you are using an invalid argument form.

Except VS hits side armor, it doesn't just resolve against Side Armor, it actually causes hits on Side Armor..

Support this statement with rules please.

Side armor consists of Left side and Right side, so that is what you hit with VS.

This one too, using a valid argument form this time.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm saying that even though hitting a side facing means you resolve against the side armour value, resolving against the side armour value doesn't mean you hit a side facing and that you are using an invalid argument form.

Except VS hits side armor, it doesn't just resolve against Side Armor, it actually causes hits on Side Armor..

Support this statement with rules please.

Too easy:

"At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP 3. Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour." (Emphasis mine BRB 43 Vector Strike Entry).

Is a vehicle a unit? If so it takes D3+1 hits, and these hits are resolved against the target's side armor...

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Side armor consists of Left side and Right side, so that is what you hit with VS.

This one too, using a valid argument form this time.

I have, page 70 and 73. Side armor consists of Right and Left side of the vehicle as noted on Page 73, the diagram is what you are looking for.

To determine what facing is hit with a shot we look at the diagram. "To see what facing a shot is corning from, draw two imaginary lines through the corners of the vehicle " (73)

Notice how the Left side and Right side of that vehicle say Side armor. The front of the vehicle is Front Armor, the back is Rear Armor, and the Left and Right sides are Side Armor.

There is your Left and Right side armor.

The Imperial Knight Codex confirms that this is true: "The Imperial Knight player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight’s ion shield is covering. The choices are: front, left side, right side or rear." (IK Codex Digital edition 359)

Clearly there is a Left facing and a Right facing as noted in the RAW.

 Idolator wrote:
It does count against the side armor value not a particular side. Now the special shield thingy only covers one side and not the other.
So you only get half of the save.
half of 4 is 2.
so you get a a save of 2
you then rub a pumpkin pie onto your chest
and take a nap.

That's about all the rules that I've read have to say on the subject.

Honestly, I don't believe that RAW has a lot to say on the subject. Chalk it up to rules writers for a unit not realizing that it has an effect on how other rules work.

Edit: I forgot to include that you also cover your entire face with red lipstick. Whew! got that in before someone corrected me.

Other option is random allocations to facing.... not really rules based but neither is the above, nor getting the save, next best would be not getting the save.
As the knight doesn't have protection for both side armor, only one facing, and the VS is never hitting one facing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm saying that even though hitting a side facing means you resolve against the side armour value, resolving against the side armour value doesn't mean you hit a side facing and that you are using an invalid argument form.

Except VS hits side armor, it doesn't just resolve against Side Armor, it actually causes hits on Side Armor..

Support this statement with rules please.

Too easy:

"At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP 3. Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour." (Emphasis mine BRB 43 Vector Strike Entry).

Is a vehicle a unit? If so it takes D3+1 hits, and these hits are resolved against the target's side armor...

You have proven it takes hits and you have proven these hits are resolved against the side armour characteristic, you have not proven that these hits actually hit a facing.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Side armor consists of Left side and Right side, so that is what you hit with VS.

This one too, using a valid argument form this time.

I have, page 70 and 73. Side armor consists of Right and Left side of the vehicle as noted on Page 73, the diagram is what you are looking for.

To determine what facing is hit with a shot we look at the diagram. "To see what facing a shot is corning from, draw two imaginary lines through the corners of the vehicle " (73)

Notice how the Left side and Right side of that vehicle say Side armor. The front of the vehicle is Front Armor, the back is Rear Armor, and the Left and Right sides are Side Armor.

There is your Left and Right side armor.

The Imperial Knight Codex confirms that this is true: "The Imperial Knight player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight’s ion shield is covering. The choices are: front, left side, right side or rear." (IK Codex Digital edition 359)

Clearly there is a Left facing and a Right facing as noted in the RAW.

I said using a valid argument form, you're just repeating your old invalid argument. Your conclusion may be correct (though I doubt it), but as long as you continue along these lines your argument does not support the conclusion.

You still have yet to prove that resolving against the side armour characteristic means you have hit a side facing.

I have proven it, you are ignoring the rules quotes.

You have quoted many a rule that builds a very strong argument that the side facings use the side armour characteristic.

There are no RAW stating which direction VS attacks come from therefore it cannot be determined that they hit a vehicle on any particular facing. If VS attacks came from a known direction why do we use random allocation for hits on infantry units?

RAW tells us to use side armour for resolving armour penetration results and that is all. It does not logically follow that this means those hits impacted either a left side, right side, or both. RAI, this instruction is most likely in order to represent a VS from above in the absence of a "top" AV although this is not specifically stated. Consider a CC situation in which we use rear armour for resolving armour penetration even if you're chopping away at the front facing of said vehicle.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I declare Left side for the shield. Your Vanquished is in my side arc on the ride side of my Knight. You fire, hit, and pen.

Do I get my shield save? Why or why not?

You do not because in that case you are only hitting the right side (and you were not hitting 'side armor', you hit Right side armor). and the shield is not on the right side it is on the left side.

If it simply hit Side armor, like barrage, you would get the shield because you use the best save available.

You've equated Side Armor to both sides. Since I must resolve the attack using the Side armor value, and Side Armor is both sides, why do I not get the best save available?

rigeld2 wrote:
You've equated Side Armor to both sides.

I have not, the rules do that. Specifically page 73. The rules equate Side armor as including both the Left and Right side.

Since I must resolve the attack using the Side armor value, and Side Armor is both sides, why do I not get the best save available?

You do with VS and Ion Shields as you simply hit side armor which includes Left and Right. VS does not specifically hit any single side, it just hits side armor, unlike when you have a Devastator squad in the Right side Armor facing of said Imperial Knight.

Had VS hit Left side armor and the shield was on the Right side armor then you would not get the save. But VS just hits side armor.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You've equated Side Armor to both sides.

I have not, the rules do that. Specifically page 73. The rules equate Side armor as including both the Left and Right side.

Since I must resolve the attack using the Side armor value, and Side Armor is both sides, why do I not get the best save available?

You do with VS and Ion Shields as you simply hit side armor which includes Left and Right. VS does not specifically hit any single side, it just hits side armor, unlike when you have a Devastator squad in the Right side Armor facing of said Imperial Knight.

Had VS hit Left side armor and the shield was on the Right side armor then you would not get the save. But VS just hits side armor.

If resolving a hit against side armor means you resolve it against both left and right sides,
And if resolving a hit against the left side means you resolve it against the side armor,
Then if a weapon hits the left side it is resolved against both sides.

I've taken the underlined from your statements in your posts. Please let me know what is incorrect - if you believe I've misquoted you let me know - I'll go grab the quotes.

Almost rig.

VS Hits side armor, Side armor includes left and right sides as noted on page 73.

Resolving a hit on the Left side, means you hit the Left side armor. not Side armor. Subtle but important difference.


(I never said "And if resolving a hit against the left side means you resolve it against the side armor")

 DeathReaper wrote:
Almost rig.

VS Hits side armor, Side armor includes left and right sides as noted on page 73.

Resolving a hit on the Left side, means you hit the Left side armor. not Side armor. Subtle but important difference.


(I never said "And if resolving a hit against the left side means you resolve it against the side armor")

Please show the armor value of the left side armor.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save

So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.

Page 73 shows that Left side and Right side both use Side armor values.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 73 shows that Left side and Right side both use Side armor values.

Great!
That agrees with the statement you made:
"So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect."
Would you agree that a shot from the left side is resolved against the side armor? I'm trying not to put words in your mouth. I'm assuming you agree with this statement.
"Is a vehicle a unit? If so it takes D3+1 hits, and these hits are resolved against the target's side armor..."
So what's the difference between a hit that resolves against the target's side armor and a hit that is resolved against the target's side armor? Please elaborate using rules.

Left side is a part of side armor in the same way that all apples are fruit, but not all fruit is apples.

All Left side armor is side armor but not all side armor is left side armor.

Geez, you guys are still going on about this.

This is not a syllogism.

The left side of a vehicle has an attributed side armor value. The right side of a vehicle has an attributed side armor value. Neither side has a required attribution to have a side armor value.

It exists on it's own.

Now, this mechanic is a real turd when things occur such as having differing armor values on a side facing or special rules for one of the sides.Because the rules are poorly written without regard to the side armor mechanic. Just deal with it as there is currently no definitively right answer. No matter how much we all want there to be one.

You should be just as torqued that there are plenty of models (including the Imperial Knight) that have differing armor values for a side with no real method for determining what those sides are, since you can pose the models in a fashion where parts of the back are on the side and parts of the side are in the front and back!

 DeathReaper wrote:
Left side is a part of side armor in the same way that all apples are fruit, but not all fruit is apples.

All Left side armor is side armor but not all side armor is left side armor.

Wait! Whoa whoa whoa. Are you actually using my "All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles" logical example that I gave you to prove how WRONG you are, MISUNDERSTANDING the example... and then using it to BOLSTER your bad argument?

Really, Deathreaper it's time to give this one a rest.

The argument goes the exact opposite of the way you quoted it.

All hits that hit the "Left Model Facing" are resolved against "Side Armor". But not all hits that are resolved against "Side Armor" hit the "Left Model Facing". So what this means is that if I am recounting a battle to you, and I tell you "My Knight got hit on the side armor!" There is no way for you to logically conclude which Model Facing my Knight was hit on.

It's exactly the same example as if I were to tell you "I have a dog!" There is no way for you to logically extrapolate from that what kind of dog I have. However if I tell you "I have a poodle!" You can logically extrapolate that I DO have a dog.

Logic does not work the way you're trying to insinuate.

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a MINUTE!

DeathReaper, you are just arguing to argue. On a point not even concerning the topic at all.

You even agree that the standard side armor value is what you use to determine vector strike hits. Heck everyone seems to agree on this as the RAW.

You're caught up in some language vortex debating if left side armor is still side armor. Which has zilch to do with the topic. Or even a reasoned debate for that matter.

None of the sides are side armor, front armor, or rear armor. The front of a vehicle uses the front armor value to determine what happens when struck by a weapon. The left side of a vehicle uses the side armor value to determine what happens when struck by a weapon.The rear of a vehicle uses the rear armor value to determine what happens when struck by a weapon.The right side of a vehicle uses the side armor value to determine what happens when struck by a weapon.

Now, there are instances where one side or the other may have it's armor value decrease while the other remains the same. Even if this weren't the case, but in those cases especially players refer to each individual side as that sides armor value. That's all and you know it.

Left side armor is side armor. Right side armor is side armor. Side armor is both left and right side armor. Side armor is left side armor. Side armor is right side armor.

Geez,man.

edit: For when a vehicle is considered to have been hit on the top or bottom armor you are instructed to use side armor values to represent the weaker armor of the top and bottom of the vehicle. While this is what is instructed, I have always felt that the underside should use the rear armor value as(unless specially outfitted) the underside armor is the weakest on the vehicle.

Murrdox wrote:
Wait! Whoa whoa whoa. Are you actually using my "All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles" logical example that I gave you to prove how WRONG you are, MISUNDERSTANDING the example... and then using it to BOLSTER your bad argument?

Except I am not incorrect.

All left side armor is side armor, but not all side armor is Left side armor. This is true no matter how much you say it is a misunderstanding/bad...

All hits that hit the "Left Model Facing" are resolved against "Side Armor".

This, what I have underlined in your post, you have incorrect. That is not how it is at all.

All hits that hit the "Left Model Facing" are resolved against "Left Side Armor". Subtle but important difference.

But not all hits that are resolved against "Side Armor" hit the "Left Model Facing".

All hits that are resolved against "Side Armor" hit "Side Armor". Not really sure what you are getting at here.

Side armor includes Left Side Armor and Right Side Armor as per Page 73. The English Languages proves this is correct. If we can not understand the English language then the rule set means nothing.

So what this means is that if I am recounting a battle to you, and I tell you "My Knight got hit on the side armor!" There is no way for you to logically conclude which Model Facing my Knight was hit on.

This is of course true. If you say, My tank was shot in its side armor you can not logically determine if the tank was hit on the left or right side, since there is not enough information to glean the answer from...

 DeathReaper wrote:
All hits that hit the "Left Model Facing" are resolved against "Left Side Armor". Subtle but important difference.

We know per your statement that left side armor is part of side armor.
We also know that left side armor doesn't exist - again, per your statement.
Since we must resolve a hit on the left side against side armor, and side armor includes both left and right (again, per your statements), how do you not roll for pen twice? I'm truly confused here.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except I am not incorrect.

All left side armor is side armor, but not all side armor is Left side armor. This is true no matter how much you say it is a misunderstanding/bad...

All hits that hit the "Left Model Facing" are resolved against "Side Armor".

This, what I have underlined in your post, you have incorrect. That is not how it is at all.

All hits that hit the "Left Model Facing" are resolved against "Left Side Armor". Subtle but important difference.

Can all the hits on the left model facing be resolved against port side armor? Can I do that? Is all left side armor also the-opposite-of-right side armor? Can all hits on the sinister model facing be resolved against the larboard side armor?

For someone that is consistently shouting "ENGLISH LANGUAGE" "ENGLISH LANGUAGE!" you don't seem to understand some of the key concepts.

Can you point to the instances in the rule book where Left side armor or Right side armor are even mentioned?

The only place that Left Side or Right side armor appear is in the rules for the Ion shield.

So either it does not work as there is no such thing (Unlikely that the shield does nothing).

Or the left facing of a vehicle is the Left side armor and the right facing is Right side armor, and they are both Side armor.

rigeld2 wrote:
We also know that left side armor doesn't exist - again, per your statement.

When did I say this?

left side armor exists, but it is not specifically called left or right in the BRB, it is in the IK book though.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The only place that Left Side or Right side armor appear is in the rules for the Ion shield.

So either it does not work as there is no such thing (Unlikely that the shield does nothing).

Or the left facing of a vehicle is the Left side armor and the right facing is Right side armor, and they are both Side armor.

rigeld2 wrote:
We also know that left side armor doesn't exist - again, per your statement.

When did I say this?

left side armor exists, but it is not specifically called left or right in the BRB, it is in the IK book though.

What are the actual words used? That is very important.

 Idolator wrote:
What are the actual words used? That is very important.

Here is what the IK codex says:

From the IK codex:

"...the Imperial Knight player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight’s ion shield is covering. The choices are: front, left side, right side or rear. The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of your opponent’s next Shooting phase." (154.5 in the Digital Codex)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
What are the actual words used? That is very important.

Here is what the IK codex says:

From the IK codex:

"...the Imperial Knight player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight’s ion shield is covering. The choices are: front, left side, right side or rear. The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of your opponent’s next Shooting phase." (154.5 in the Digital Codex)

So no references to "left side armor" just references to front, left side, right side and rear in regards to a facing. There is no such thing as "left side armor" nor "right side armor" listed in the rules. The designation "left" and "right" are merely adjectives added by players for ease. The terms port and starboard or sinister and dexter could also be used.

So these terms only exist in the minds of the players (you) not in any official capacity of the rules. To argue otherwise is foolish.

That being said. The rules as whole when it comes to this situation are a dismal failure and should be decided on by the players. Now, how to do that....first get a stick of red lipstick and a pumpkin pie.............

 DeathReaper wrote:
Left side is a part of side armor in the same way that all apples are fruit, but not all fruit is apples.

All Left side armor is side armor but not all side armor is left side armor.

Doesn't this directly contradict your position on the Knight's invulnerable save?

 Happyjew wrote:
RAW: unknown.

That said, the only way I've seen it ruled (and granted it was a small local tourney), was that regardless of which AV you are using to resolve the attack (i.e. side armour for barrage and VS), if the model is in the facing that is protected, it gets the save.

The TO never did answer me on what happens if the VS model left the board...

HIWPI: The strike should come from the side the helldrake moved over in its movement phase . If the drake moved over more than one side then determine the side the strike comes from randomly from among the sides the drake moved over. But as for your local TO's much siomplier solution. If the drake left the board you could count the strike as coming from point on the board edge where the drake left.

 DJGietzen wrote:
HIWPI: The strike should come from the side the helldrake moved over in its movement phase .

You mean the top side?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
HIWPI: The strike should come from the side the helldrake moved over in its movement phase .

You mean the top side?

Where is top side referenced in the rules? Nowhere! It doesn't exist in respect to the rules!

Come on!!!! These rules are busted!

The top side doesn't actually exist in the rules, correct, but that is the side the Vector Striking model moves over, and is represented by resolving Vector Strike against the Side AV value.