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 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when the rulebook says: "comparing this total with the AV of the appropriate facing of the vehicle", and requires "A facing" and not just using a number, you ignore this and just continue with resolving the Glance/Pen roll?

What part of "resolve against side armour" don't you understand?

I understand it just as well as "Resolve against closest model" Don't we roll-off those when they are "the same" ?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when the rulebook says: "comparing this total with the AV of the appropriate facing of the vehicle", and requires "A facing" and not just using a number, you ignore this and just continue with resolving the Glance/Pen roll?

What part of "resolve against side armour" don't you understand?

I understand it just as well as "Resolve against closest model" Don't we roll-off those when they are "the same" ?

There is only 1 side AV.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when the rulebook says: "comparing this total with the AV of the appropriate facing of the vehicle", and requires "A facing" and not just using a number, you ignore this and just continue with resolving the Glance/Pen roll?

What part of "resolve against side armour" don't you understand?

I understand it just as well as "Resolve against closest model" Don't we roll-off those when they are "the same" ?

There is only 1 side AV.

There is only 1 Toughness value in the unit.

This does not make Marine A or Marine B the same.
Just as Left Side facing and Right Side facing are not the same.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when the rulebook says: "comparing this total with the AV of the appropriate facing of the vehicle", and requires "A facing" and not just using a number, you ignore this and just continue with resolving the Glance/Pen roll?

What part of "resolve against side armour" don't you understand?

I understand it just as well as "Resolve against closest model" Don't we roll-off those when they are "the same" ?

There is only 1 side AV.

There is only 1 Toughness value in the unit.

This does not make Marine A or Marine B the same.
Just as Left Side facing and Right Side facing are not the same.

But it isn't asking you which facing you're hitting, it's asking you which armour value you're resolving against.
"comparing this total with the AV of the appropriate facing of the vehicle"
The "AV of the appropriate facing" is the side AV, you bypass checking which facing you hit because Vector Strike does not hit a facing and is resolved against side AV.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

But it isn't asking you which facing you're hitting, it's asking you which armour value you're resolving against.
"comparing this total with the AV of the appropriate facing of the vehicle"
The "AV of the appropriate facing" is the side AV, you bypass checking which facing you hit because Vector Strike does not hit a facing and is resolved against side AV.

That is all correct, but you would bypass Random Allocation if you hit a single character too...

However a unit with more than one model needs to decide who takes the wound.
Just as an Imperial Knight needs to decide which facing takes the Pen.

Because that was the original OP question, modified: Which facing, Left or Right, is Hit be the Vector strike? (he said: which side of the unit)

Now i've answered the OP question, have you? Please also support with rules.

Yes, in fact you just quoted it:
" you bypass checking which facing you hit because Vector Strike does not hit a facing and is resolved against side AV."
Therefore, as it does not hit a facing, the shield does not work against Vector Strikes.
As for rules support: "That unit takes D3+l hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP 3. Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes, in fact you just quoted it:
" you bypass checking which facing you hit because Vector Strike does not hit a facing and is resolved against side AV."
Therefore, as it does not hit a facing, the shield does not work against Vector Strikes.
As for rules support: "That unit takes D3+l hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP 3. Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour."

So, what facing is hit then? because that matters for the shield.

None, the unit is hit.

Fro the FAQ: "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit."

"When it suffers a penetrating or glancing hit" you are require to check: At that very point of checking, please tell me Left or Right, which facing is hit?

I have got rules support for Random Allocation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
None, the unit is hit.

So, in the case of 10 marines, and the unit is hit, how do you decide which model is removed or gets an Invun save?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Fro the FAQ: "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit."

"When it suffers a penetrating or glancing hit" you are require to check: At that very point of checking, please tell me Left or Right, which facing is hit?

Neither.

I have got rules support for Random Allocation.

As random allocation applies to wounding a unit of multiple models you definitely do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
None, the unit is hit.

So, in the case of 10 marines, and the unit is hit, how do you decide which model is removed or gets an Invun save?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Fro the FAQ: "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit."

"When it suffers a penetrating or glancing hit" you are require to check: At that very point of checking, please tell me Left or Right, which facing is hit?

Neither.

Well then Vector Strike does not Glance or Pen knights, good to know

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Fro the FAQ: "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit."

"When it suffers a penetrating or glancing hit" you are require to check: At that very point of checking, please tell me Left or Right, which facing is hit?

Neither.

Well then Vector Strike does not Glance or Pen knights, good to know

It does, you just don't get the invulnerable save as it has further restrictions to the general invuln rules, such as only applying to hits against 1 facing. If you had an invulnerable save that wasn't facing specific you could definitely take it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Fro the FAQ: "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit."

"When it suffers a penetrating or glancing hit" you are require to check: At that very point of checking, please tell me Left or Right, which facing is hit?

Neither.

Well then Vector Strike does not Glance or Pen knights, good to know

It does, you just don't get the invulnerable save as it has further restrictions to the general invuln rules, such as only applying to hits against 1 facing.

Which is the facing that Vector strike uses. So therefore it involves the Invulnerable save.

Random allocation: "This usually happens when two or more models are equidistant from the shooting unit, but can also occur if the position of the attacker is unclear, such as with the Tyranid Mawloc's Terror From the Deep special rule, a Callidus Assassin's Polymorphine specialrule or any attack said to use Random Allocation"

Vector Strike, FAQ: "That unit takes D3+1 hits (...) using Random Allocation." Note - These hits use Random Allocation.

Vector Strike, FAQ: "Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target’s side armour." These are hits, and therefore:

BRB p73: "Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from." The shot is coming from a side Facing, but which one? Work your way back to the top and done.

Vector strike causes Hits.
These hits are Resolved on Side Armour.
The Knight can have an Invun save on one of the Side Armours.

Please say if you deny any of these.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Which is the facing that Vector strike uses. So therefore it involves the Invulnerable save.

Side AV is not a facing, it a characteristic.

Random allocation: "This usually happens when two or more models are equidistant from the shooting unit, but can also occur if the position of the attacker is unclear, such as with the Tyranid Mawloc's Terror From the Deep special rule, a Callidus Assassin's Polymorphine specialrule or any attack said to use Random Allocation"

Vector Strike, FAQ: "That unit takes D3+1 hits (...) using Random Allocation." Note - These hits use Random Allocation.

Vector Strike, FAQ: "Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target’s side armour." These are hits, and therefore:

BRB p73: "Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from." The shot is coming from a side Facing, but which one? Work your way back to the top and done.

There are no "shots" from Vector Strike, there are only hits resolved against the Side AV characteristic.

Vector strike causes Hits.
These hits are Resolved on Side Armour.
The Knight can have an Invun save on one of the Side Armours.

Please say if you deny any of these.

I deny the last one for 2 reasons.
1. There is only 1 side armour.
2. The Knight's shield is placed on a facing, not an armour value characteristic.

This is How I View It:

VS goes and hits the model, roll against side AV characteristic, with the random number of rolls.....as this is supposed to indicate a number of hits on the model, these are the rolls to glance/pen and have a chance to do so....the Shield is one facing, whilst the hits are all over the vehicle, just as if you've been hit by multiple shots with no wounds etc....the roll is to see which of those get through.
Because no facing is decided on the VS rule, there is no facing the model can invoke, to my mind, the shield doesn't come into play.
The rules specifically state the side AV characteristic is to be rolled against in this state, not left facing armour or right armour facing....so no save.

There -is not- only one side armor.

There is only 1 armor value listed for side armor.

if you look at any diagram for how a vehicles facings are broken up you will see that all vehicles have 2 sides, a left side and a right side.

the value for armor is the same on both sides, so it is listed only as side armor value because it applies to both the left and right sides which have the same armor.

There is no logical reason to have two different armor values for side armor, so the value for both is listed as they are the same.

Yet there are two sides, each with their own armor value which happens to be the same.

the statement about knights shield not affecting the side is ludicrous, and the statement about the side not being side armor is ludicrous. If its not side armor its not front or rear so then vector strike would have 0 effect as it hits part of a model that does not exist.

There is one side armour value characteristic.

There are two side facings, and when you hit either facing you resolve the attacks against the side armour value characteristic.

There is no rule stating that there are multiple side armour values.

Sure there is, if I have a land raider and a model is on the left, and and a separate model is on the right, the model on the left hits the left armor it has a value, the model on the right hits the right armor, it has a value. the values are the same, but they are separate facings with their own armor values. The values are both equal to each other.

Rules quote please?

rules quote that there is only 1 side armor please?

blaktoof wrote:
rules quote that there is only 1 side armor please?

Look at the datasheet of any vehicle.
How many side armours are listed?

I see that, then I look in the rulebook and clearly see when it shows armor facings that the vehicle has 2 side armors, a left side and a right side.

I then look at the datsheet and see the value for those sides have the same armor value, but they are still two separate sides.

blaktoof wrote:
rules quote that there is only 1 side armor please?

Here ya go.

p.73 of the BRB clearly shows two separate side facings.

blaktoof wrote:
p.73 of the BRB clearly shows two separate side facings.

And does not show a separate side armour characteristic for each facing.

Side *facing* is not the same as side *armor*

Yes, each model as two side *facings*.

That does not mean it has two side *armor* values. each *facing* uses the same side armor value.

The vector strike does not effect a *facing*, it bypasses that determination entirely. Its rule says to use the value for the side armor (which is a characteristic in the profile). It never says it effects a facing, nor does it say to determine a facing.


Some of you are stuck because you believe the VS must effect a *facing*... but that is not in the rules at all.

coredump wrote:
Some of you are stuck because you believe the VS must effect a *facing*... but that is not in the rules at all.

This. Referring to the vehicle facing section on p73 of the BRB is irrelevant as this is addressing shooting attacks. "Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from."

VS is not a shooting attack. It does not come from a particular direction. It does not hit a facing. You cannot therefore take an inv save specifically associated with any particular facing.

Random Allocation is also completely irrelevant with regard to VS against a knight on its own. Random Allocation is used to determine which models are allocated wounds from a VS within a multi-model unit once the number of wounds has been resolved. There is no need to randomly allocate wounds within a single model unit.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

coredump wrote:
Some of you are stuck because you believe the VS must effect a *facing*... but that is not in the rules at all.

This. Referring to the vehicle facing section on p73 of the BRB is irrelevant as this is addressing shooting attacks. "Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from."

VS is not a shooting attack. It does not come from a particular direction. It does not hit a facing. You cannot therefore take an inv save specifically associated with any particular facing.

Random Allocation is also completely irrelevant with regard to VS against a knight on its own. Random Allocation is used to determine which models are allocated wounds from a VS within a multi-model unit once the number of wounds has been resolved. There is no need to randomly allocate wounds within a single model unit.

I would disagree on this, VS is a shooting attack, because they even FAQed it to "ignore cover saves".

But this is bringing us back to the long-winded argument of "There only exists Close combat and Shooting attacks" of which Vector Strike is the last.

Random allocation is not determining who is hit, please read it correctly.

randomly determine which model is treated as being the closest

Is the exact rule. In the case of a single model with 2 different facings, it helps to pick which is closest.

"Treated as" for the purpose of the Vector Strike makes everything quite clear. And Vector Strike is told to use Random Allocation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More simply put: The Special Rule Ion shield that the Knight has requires all shooting attacks to define a Facing they are hitting.

Vector Strike specifies it hits and uses Side armour, but does not specify a side. I does use Random Allocation, however.

The method with the less assumptions is to assume Random Allocation wording "which model is treated as being the closest" applies here and is used.

In any case, any way of resolving this debate will make assumptions, and I would follow Occam's Razor at this stage.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

coredump wrote:
Some of you are stuck because you believe the VS must effect a *facing*... but that is not in the rules at all.

This. Referring to the vehicle facing section on p73 of the BRB is irrelevant as this is addressing shooting attacks. "Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from."

VS is not a shooting attack. It does not come from a particular direction. It does not hit a facing. You cannot therefore take an inv save specifically associated with any particular facing.

Random Allocation is also completely irrelevant with regard to VS against a knight on its own. Random Allocation is used to determine which models are allocated wounds from a VS within a multi-model unit once the number of wounds has been resolved. There is no need to randomly allocate wounds within a single model unit.

OK, replace vector strike with Ordnance Barrage direct hit. Now what?

 don_mondo wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

coredump wrote:
Some of you are stuck because you believe the VS must effect a *facing*... but that is not in the rules at all.

This. Referring to the vehicle facing section on p73 of the BRB is irrelevant as this is addressing shooting attacks. "Shots are resolved against the facing of the vehicle that the shot comes from."

VS is not a shooting attack. It does not come from a particular direction. It does not hit a facing. You cannot therefore take an inv save specifically associated with any particular facing.

Random Allocation is also completely irrelevant with regard to VS against a knight on its own. Random Allocation is used to determine which models are allocated wounds from a VS within a multi-model unit once the number of wounds has been resolved. There is no need to randomly allocate wounds within a single model unit.

OK, replace vector strike with Ordnance Barrage direct hit. Now what?

Honestly, I would use the placement of the center hole in relation to the model hit. If it happened to hit dead center, I would randomly determine. Due to all the same reasons that I have previously mentioned.