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So next week or the week after I'm facing a real WAAC chump. He's clearly a bit special, so we cut him a little slack, but for example just yesterday he had a game against a Space Marine player whose only AA was a forgeworld dread of some type. Knowing this, he said "no Forgeworld" and proceeded to bring two helldrakes to that matchup and literally squealed with delight every time they massacred something. Pretty poor form aye?

So I challenged him to a match, because special or not that attitude isn't something I want infecting the club I play at. I'm not too worried, because honestly this guy is terrible (he lost the above game). The only issue is that I haven't faced Helldrakes since I faced his ones like this time last year. I didn't know what I was doing then (had been playing maybe a month), and still managed to draw, but couldn't touch the bloody hellturkey. The other units he likes to run are Forgefiends and Obliterators, maybe a few daemon princes, and some chaos spawn.

I've got two armies I can bring to face him, neither of which are all that great. Theres my Daemons of Khorne, which is a Bloodthirster plus the ever incompetent Daemon Princes of Khorne. A bunch of bloodletters as troops (god they suck) but then the saving grace of like 40 Flesh Hounds. I can also add a GUO and Nuglings I'm doing, fluffed as a chaos Giant and chaos Snotlings, but those are works in progress and I have no idea how to go about using them. Theres also an option of Chaos Marine allies for some AA guns, and if I want to fight cheese with cheese, Be'lakor is on the cards. If Chaos Marines are taken, then a Helbrute Mayhem pack becomes a compulsary FoC selection, but I reckon that shouldn't be too bad here with all the daemon engines to blast.

The alternative is my good old Orks. I have virtually everything Orky, aside from the flyers (which would be utterly fantastic here =(), and can build anything I need between now and the match. I know what I'm doing when I play Orks, unlike when I play daemons, but I'm just not all that confident that they can smash the flyers without a 'proper' AA gun. They can also take limited IG allies in the form of a Bloodaxe warband, so any suggestions here will be taken on board too. I haven't seen the new IG codex though so don't know what to use.

The Turkeys must be cooked, they cannot be ignored! Which army would you run and how would you sink the Drakes with it?

Cheers for any advice.

As an Ork player you not having a dakkajet unfortunately is going to be a big obstacle in trying to hammer down these Heldrakes into oblivion. What worked for me the last time I faced against a double heldrake list was going full on 45 lootas. At most each drake is going to be taking down 7-8 models of one unit (if you space them out right) and often times if they do so they will be close enough that other units in your army will be able to target their rear armour. This means mass shootas w/big shootas are actually a viable supplement to the lootas in shoving a bunch of dakka down their tailpipe since its only AV10 in the rear. The best part is you can move your Lootas as well to try and hit their booties since you snap fire anyways at fliers.

Other than direct Orky units like Lootas and playing the positioning game properly, an Icarus lascannon/Quad-Gun from an Aegis Defence Line manned by grotz is a decent choice. It's cheap and can be remanned by nearby units should the one that is shooting it get flambéed to hell and thankfully has interceptor so you have a chance to knock off a few HP or even possibly blow it up before it can do anything with its baleflamer if you're lucky.

Ignore them.

Bale flamers are only particularly useful against Sv3+. With both orks and demons, you should have more than enough numbers to offset the damage of a template weapon. Just make sure you're displacing.

Plus, for demons, Ap3 is rather neutralized by 5++, and with orks, you should be able to field way too many bodies. Alternately, you should be able to field way too many lootaz for his birds to stay in the air.

But still, helldrakes only do damage. They have no strategic impact on the game. Just keep your nose down and focus on winning the mission and there should be no problems.

You'll take a few casualties, but suck it up.

Something I've considered is 2+ save spam. I have like 15 Chaos Terminators and a bunch of MegaNobz. 2+ is usually rubbish but maybe in this case...

Ignore them.

That is what I'd do if I just wanted to win. But as I said in the OP, "The Turkeys must be cooked, they cannot be ignored!"

Its almost personal for me here. These helldrakes were the bane of my first few months of gaming, alongside the Manticore he also liked to field. I've managed to kill the Manticore but now its time to go hunting for a different kind of game. The hellturkeys must be roasted! Like they've roasted so many others with their stupid 360 degree torrent! WAAAAAGH!

@Grimskul

I've been thinking Lootas in a Bunker. Or Lootas in a Giant Squiggoth if I can suss an appropriate model (Giant w/ a howdah?). Hell I could go balls to the wall with that Anti Helldrake quad lascannon monstrosity.

Would prefer to win this with Orks over daemons if I can. Again its the boyz getting their own back for their battles back when I started.

Fine.

Don't bother with demons. They have basically nothing to do this specific thing. Orks still have lootaz. Do they share a slot with tankbustaz? Plus, you have lots of sources of rokkits in general. Plus, you have the dakkajet. If he can bring fliers, so can you.

You can also ally. That's not forgeworld. Orks can ally with guard, and guard can bring squads of vendettas and hydras. Both got nerfed, of course, but that doesn't make them bad. Plus, I'm sure there's some way that allies can get prescience on those lootas.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Something I've considered is 2+ save spam. I have like 15 Chaos Terminators and a bunch of MegaNobz. 2+ is usually rubbish but maybe in this case...

Ignore them.

That is what I'd do if I just wanted to win. But as I said in the OP, "The Turkeys must be cooked, they cannot be ignored!"

Its almost personal for me here. These helldrakes were the bane of my first few months of gaming, alongside the Manticore he also liked to field. I've managed to kill the Manticore but now its time to go hunting for a different kind of game. The hellturkeys must be roasted! Like they've roasted so many others with their stupid 360 degree torrent! WAAAAAGH!

@Grimskul

I've been thinking Lootas in a Bunker. Or Lootas in a Giant Squiggoth if I can suss an appropriate model (Giant w/ a howdah?). Hell I could go balls to the wall with that Anti Helldrake quad lascannon monstrosity.

Would prefer to win this with Orks over daemons if I can. Again its the boyz getting their own back for their battles back when I started.

The Squiggoth would be pretty good, but didn't he say no forgeworld? Also Lootas in battlewagons are pretty good as well, or having a Mega-Armour Warboss to tank the AP3 wounds if you want to keep them on foot.

Also Ailaros, he doesn't have any dakka jets which is why he's not using them.

Soulgrinders bro. Get three. MoK and rake the skies.

Grimore a giant unit of hell hounds with and/or/with thirster. 3++ 2 wounds properly spaced is alright.

I know its not really a solution, but a LoC gets str8 and a 2++ rerollable. If he's gonna be a dick a good tzeentch herald star or FMC is top tier.

Loota's in a battle wagon, with a mek to repair it. Anti air, he strikes against the truck not the loota's, and he can burn that all he likes.
Mine has a lobba fitted just for lols.

Usually I don't go for Lootas in a Wagon, but the Helldrakes attacks are all S6 right? If so then its virtually untouchable

I'd have to suss a way to protect it from the massed Oblits he takes, but thats another problem

@cod3x

Unfortunately got no Soul Grinders. Grimoir on the hounds sounds like a nasty combo though. Maybe Grimor + Hounds + Herald on Jugger, charge in and ream his characters in a challenge while the hounds tear everything else a new one.

@Grimskul

He says no, I'm saying yes. If he doesn't like it he can turn down the game. As a matter of principle 100% of the games I play are forgeworld approved. I don't always bring it but I won't play if its not ok to do so, except maybe against the old school "no fliers etc" crowd. I consider any talk of it being unbalanced etc to be nonsense in light of the current meta, dataslates, and all that crap.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Usually I don't go for Lootas in a Wagon, but the Helldrakes attacks are all S6 right? If so then its virtually untouchable

I'd have to suss a way to protect it from the massed Oblits he takes, but thats another problem

The point is lootas behind aegis can be cooked, loota's in BW can't. Talking of cooking, burna boys in a BW with a mek and deff roller, crash n burn

Looted always eat Heldrakes for breakfast in my opinion.

Its not like snap firing at Flyers is much different than their regular shooting

Ran the numbers and if I've done it right, 15 Lootas rolling three shots double-kills a Helldrake in one turn. Ouch.

I also read up on the Vector strike and its S7, which means theres a 1/18 chance per hit of BOOMing a wagon, and with 1d3+1 hits thats a nasty chance. Since it also ignores cover (ffs) I'll need an invuln to stop it... perhaps that fabled Battlewagons on a skyshield is the way to go? Theres one at my club that I could borrow

Nob Bikers can ping off a few HP too, and mostly just laugh at the Helldrakes attacks. They'd also be good against the massed Lascannons and stuff from Oblits, and could do a lot of damage to them in CC with their klaws - they'd ID an unmarked oblit but not be ID in return, I like those odds

Add a massive wave of 120 boyz, probably with Nobs in this case though I usually leave those at home, and I think I might have my list. If it fits the points at least =/

One hound pack of 18-20 with a Jugger herald, grimore to get 3++.

One pack of 18-20 with Belakor, cast invisible, run through cover.

BT on an Aegis. I know, but he has BS 10 and you have very little AA. DP's can also Vector Strike. Between the two, you should be able to drop both by turn 3, maybe 4.

Your BT also will protect your backfield from any DS termies, oblits, and give your homepoint campers a little help. By that point you'll probably have a Chaos Lord in a bike pack somewhere in your face, so go take that in CC, eliminate the chump champion round one, then eat the lord in round 2 for a VP.

Dakkamite wrote:Ran the numbers and if I've done it right, 15 Lootas rolling three shots double-kills a Helldrake in one turn. Ouch.

15 x 3 x 1/6 x 1/3 x 2/3 (invul save) is only 1.666. You've actually got to put down more dakka than that. Like, say, by adding in more lootas, or getting prescience to lootas you already have.

And yeah, vector strike is S7, but it's still pretty bad. Odds are low it wrecks a vehicle, and he's got to run over your orks to make it happen, which means possibly exposing rear armor, and getting you into range of shorter-range weapons like rokkits.

Speaking of, 15 tankbustaz in a 4-rokkit battlewaggon will keep them pretty safe, and put down 19 rokkit shots. That's 19 x 1/6 x 1/2 x 2/3 only one hull point stripped compared to 1 and 2/3ds, but you do also have a higher chance to cause a penetrating hit and thus a vehicle explosion result.

Plus, it would be more hilarious.

Your BT also will protect your backfield from any DS termies, oblits, and give your homepoint campers a little help. By that point you'll probably have a Chaos Lord in a bike pack somewhere in your face, so go take that in CC, eliminate the chump champion round one, then eat the lord in round 2 for a VP.

Honestly I'm not worried about DS or anything like that. This guy's tactics rarely change, he just sits back and shoots and flies helldrakes all over the place really inefficiently. They often end up on stupid angles where they waste a turns shooting for no reason, or expose rear armour.

He added a spawn pack though, maybe I need something to deal to that.

@Aliaros

Tankbustas are one of the few things I don't have. I couldn't justify building them over lootas because of how crap they are. The rokkits would also only be good out to 24" which limits their effect.Your right about the rear armour thing though. Hell, I encourage him to vector my wagons now. 1/6 of losing a wagon, 100% chance of rear armour to 1-3 wagons full of lootas for a massive chance of a dead drake. Might even grab big shootas or rokkits for all the wagons while I'm at it. I'm pretty sure its impossible to prescience Lootas. We have no battle brothers who can do it.

Current in-progress army list that I'm thinking of taking:

15x Lootas riding in Battlewagon, 4x Big Shoota @ 335

15x Lootas riding in Battlewagon, 4x Big Shoota @ 335

30x Shoota Boyz @ 180
30x Shoota Boyz @ 180
30x Shoota Boyz @ 180
30x Choppa Boyz @ 180
Choppa boyz are just because thats what I have models for

x20 Gretchin, Runtherd @ 70
Aegis Line w/ Quadgun @ 85

Grot Bomm Launcha @ 35

=1580

Figured because I only really have two targets for the lootas the big 15 man units aren't too bad, and it saves me 90pts on a battlewagon.

Wagons hide behind aegis for protection from Lascannons. Dakka the Helldrakes. Green tide rushes up and krumps things. Typical orky strategy lol

Great let us know how the match goes. Always like to hear about a cheezer taking a bite of cheddar

The only problem I've found is that Lootas only work once! Once an opponent knows what they do they're always targeted first and die pretty quickly...

It's not really wise to focus on heldrakes while playing orkses. If you focus on killing the drakes, think bout it - what do you have for that role? Lootas in wagonz? That's not super-reliable and very dangerous. Cause he can first melta-drop your wagonz to death and than cook the insides with flamers. 3 Wagonz full of lootas will cost you around 1k points. And for 1k points chaos can bring so much stuff lootas won't be able to counter that you'll plain loose the game.

If you desperately want to focus on this drakes, bring 3 dakkajets and comms relay to delay/come when you need it. You'll gona have some lootas anywayz, so the combined effort of 2-3 dakkajets and 1-2 squads of lootas will be able to glance a turkey per 1-2 turns to death.

However, note that i'm almost alwayz against lootas in wagonz for some reason

Cause he can first melta-drop your wagonz to death

I seriously want to emphasize what I said earlier. This guy has no tactics at all. I'm not worried about pods or deep strike or whatever, its just not gonna happen. He's gonna line up his oblits, charge some spawn or some gak, and fly his helldrakes around in random directions.

The only problem I've found is that Lootas only work once!

Lol I won't be playing him again after this. Unless of course he manages a win... then I'll be trying my daemons instead

 Dakkamite wrote:


I seriously want to emphasize what I said earlier. This guy has no tactics at all. I'm not worried about pods or deep strike or whatever, its just not gonna happen. He's gonna line up his oblits, charge some spawn or some gak, and fly his helldrakes around in random directions.

You don't need to be a tactical genius to figure out that meltadrop vs wagonz is brutal

Well, i've also stated you could mass dakkajets. They're actually great vs spawns too. And you'll have significant problems vs nurgle spawns. Even lootas can't kill enough of them and boyz wounding on 6-s vs such ammount of fearless wounds - probably in cover - is not a great thing either.

So, I'd focus on spawns first. Cause they're much more dangerous to orkses than heldrakes imo. When there's a sorc or lord hidden within a unit, they just can't be ignored.

Massed oblits and drakes sounds like crack'n'burn idea to eradicate troops by breaking transports and torching occupants. This tactic often ends up with low troop numbers . thing is he is using obliterators so he has done it wrong. You use preaditors for this tactic so that means he has subjected himself to low troop numbers and cc.

Kommando team will kill oblits. Take a nob with power claw. He won't get challenged as oblits are not characters. If he is the tactical Muppet I beilve him to be his drakes Will target what he perceives to be the most dangerous. ie the kommando team Placing flamer templates behind your own lines is hard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And keeps fire of your lootas and boyz

Lol Blackskull, I like that idea. Would be nice for Kommandos to do something decent for once! Kill an oblit and a half and they earn back their points.

He was very light on troops in that game I saw. Two five man units of CSM. No marks, special weapons, or anything.

@Kooaei

They're just vanilla spawns, not nurgle ones. Ditto for the oblits. I'll keep that in mind. As long as the drakes die I don't care when, because as its been said before they won't really hurt my army.

Got no Dakkajets. Fliers are one of the few things I don't have.

Edit: ffs shenanigans happened and ate the rest of my post. Wondering about Nob Bikers - they laugh at helldrakes, can massacre CSM troops, and can do tons of damage to oblits and forgefiends though getting mauled in return too. Deffkoptas + Bikerboss(es) are also an option for dealing with such lousy troops. Outflank in, dakka dakka, laugh at the return fire (4+ cover and T5 W2 doesn't care about oblit weapons too much either) and then the bikerboss is free to rampage about. I'm also considering Kans. They're pretty underwhelming atm, but any lascannons fired at them aren't fired at wagons, any helldrakes attacking them aren't attacking boys, and if they get into CC with the Oblits they might actually kill one!

Also, can someone tell me what forgefiends do? Something to do with plasma cannon-ey things. I haven't faced them in aaaages and I only saw the part where they blew up in todays game. Do I need to care about these?

 Dakkamite wrote:
Lol Blackskull, I like that idea. Would be nice for Kommandos to do something decent for once! Kill an oblit and a half and they earn back their points.

He was very light on troops in that game I saw. Two five man units of CSM. No marks, special weapons, or anything.

@Kooaei

They're just vanilla spawns, not nurgle ones. Ditto for the oblits. I'll keep that in mind. As long as the drakes die I don't care when, because as its been said before they won't really hurt my army.

Got no Dakkajets. Fliers are one of the few things I don't have.

Edit: ffs shenanigans happened and ate the rest of my post. Wondering about Nob Bikers - they laugh at helldrakes, can massacre CSM troops, and can do tons of damage to oblits and forgefiends though getting mauled in return too. Deffkoptas + Bikerboss(es) are also an option for dealing with such lousy troops. Outflank in, dakka dakka, laugh at the return fire (4+ cover and T5 W2 doesn't care about oblit weapons too much either) and then the bikerboss is free to rampage about. I'm also considering Kans. They're pretty underwhelming atm, but any lascannons fired at them aren't fired at wagons, any helldrakes attacking them aren't attacking boys, and if they get into CC with the Oblits they might actually kill one!

Also, can someone tell me what forgefiends do? Something to do with plasma cannon-ey things. I haven't faced them in aaaages and I only saw the part where they blew up in todays game. Do I need to care about these?

Forgefiends are basically just dreadnoughts (same AV12 on front and sides and 10 at the rear) with It Will Not Die and a built in 5++ invuln. Very prone to being glanced to death with only 3 hull points and not a very big concern given that its S8 small blast ectoplasma cannons will only double out on Mega Nobz or normal Foot slogging nobz, both of which you aren't taking. You'll easily have enough boyz (and likely cover) to ignore most of the shots and he's unlikely to get an angle where it can get at the side armour of your battlewagons so he'll glance at most if shooting at it head on. Basically he's a pretty low priority on the threat scale in a CSM army, at least for Orks, and he's arguably more dangerous to us if he's armed with his dual hades autocannons. But aside from that get one Nob with a PK in combat with it on the charge and it's pretty much toast. Or just one round of loota fire. Whatever is convenient.

I'm going to also join in with everybody saying focusing on the Heldrakes is a bad idea. In my experience they either die from a lucky shot or fly around all game. It's best to just ignore them and unless you're running bikes it's not too hard to mitigate their damage.

Doesnt the Zzap gun auto hit flyers?

Heh, I recommend you buy some Ork fliers at some point, the models are fantastic and they're fun to use. They're not super amazing against loldrakes though since they're very weak against their Vector Strike and their S6 shooting is kinda so-so vs. av12 5++.

It's never the Helldrakes you need to worry about overmuch anyway. It's the accursed Plague Marines that never ever die or the Khornelord who's unbeatable in close combat.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Doesnt the Zzap gun auto hit flyers?

That was way back when in the previous Ork codex, now it hits things like everything else on ballistic skill. Also there's already a clause in the disappeared FAQ that said anything that would auto-hit something (i.e. the Weirdboy's shooting psychic powers) without skyfire still has to roll a 6 as a snap fire to hit a flyer so unfortunately that wouldn't work.

Killing a drake is hard. Toughest thing in the air currently, best weapon against them is Icarus lascannon but as orks that's wasted on you as I'm unsure you will hit it in time.

You will win easily, that's due to only 10 marines standing between you and victory.

Sadly though as orks you have no easy way to kill a helldrake no matter how hard you waaagh at it. Easyist is the ork flyers cause if I remember correctly they can ram flyers. And nothing is more hilarious then killing a dragon by ramming a plane up its arse.

If you guys play with stronghold assault then either army will work you just need a firestorm redoubt with quad las and magos machine spirit. 4 interceptor, lascannon, skyfire, BS3, TL shots have a 33% chance to explode a helturkey every turn. Load a big unit of lootas into the redoubt and they can shoot at the helturkey's as well.

Be'Lakor would be hilarious as instead of killing the turkey you could puppet master it into shooting the CSMs with the flamer. That would definitely make turkeys less attractive.