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Just wondering what peoples thoughts are with regards to prefered load out for Pask's Leman Russ?

I have been considering going full plasma, just because it looks cool, but not sure it's getting the best use of him.

Or do you have a couple of turrets that you swap in and out depending on opponent?

Any additional options you like?

What about the rest of his squadron?

It'd be interesting to here your thoughts.

Have at it....

What sort of targets do you usually have?

I'd say that the Eradicator and Battle Tank would be a waste of Pask though.

The Demolisher is also probably not the best use of him.

Before when used he was usually stuffed into a Punisher or Vanquisher tank, well actually mostly the Vanquisher tank. And I'd say that his new ability to twin-link his main gun would make this a better choice than it used to be, on the other hand; a Pask in a Punisher or Exterminator tank rends now.

So generally, you get the most out of him by putting him in the tanks that don't have blast weapons.

However, the big winner is definitely the Punisher. BS4 with 20 rending shots before you get into the hull and sponson guns is awesome.

It's like shooting ten genestealers at the enemy.

IMO:

Eradicator: too expensive. This tank is so ridiculously cheap that twin-linking the main gun doesn't make much sense when you can just buy an entire additional tank so easily.

Exterminator: redundant. The punisher is just so much better, take that instead.

Vanquisher: decent. Pask helps a lot with the accuracy problem and tank hunters is great on a tank that's dedicated to killing enemy tanks, but the punisher is great at glancing tanks to death and isn't as useless against infantry.

LRBT: not much point. Twin-linking the main gun is decent I guess, but LRBTs aren't really a very good unit anyway.

Demolisher: decent. It's an all or nothing tank that has to get in close to do anything, and Pask makes its one shot count.

Executioner: useless. The alternate shot is a joke, and re-rolling 1s on "gets hot" is redundant since you're always taking a divination psyker to twin-link it anyway.

And the winner is:

Punisher: win. BS 4 makes you hit more, rending makes you kill more. And now your punisher cannon is ridiculously good at killing tanks: 1.55 glances per turn against AV 14 (assuming preferred enemy is in effect), 3.1 per turn against AV 13. Pretty much anything that isn't a Land Raider or a flyer just disappears. Honestly, the Pask punisher is so awesome that taking anything else is probably a mistake.

I agree that the Punisher is the best tank to go, however the sponsons it should take is another debate entirely. Personally I am thinking Multi-Melta Sponsons would go a long way with it making it much better vs armor 14 and to help bring down MC's like the Wraith Knight and Riptide. However Heavy Bolter Sponsons are a good choice as well but with the Rending Punisher Cannon think that would be plenty to use against Infantry.

I'll run Punisher (sponson multi-meltas, lazcannon, dozer, Pask) + Eradicator (dozer, probably with sponson HB) as a part of allied detachment to my orkses. Why multi-meltas over hbolters? Previously Pask could make hbolters s6 so could glance av12 and now hbolters can't support the main gun vs av12 and no more reroll to-wound vs MC. So, Hbolters don't cut it on Pask tank now. While remaining useful on eradicator - not a must though. Sometimes they have same targets but i'm mostly hoping to pass that ld9 split-fire orders.

On the other hand, the 2-d tank can be exterminator cause it could be useful vs same targets as a punisher if the split-fire order fails.

I was running Exterminator (HB sponsons, lazcannon, Pask) which was the exact 235 pts like the new punisher version i'm gona test out. Eradicator was worth it even when cost 160 pts. Yep, ig can ignore cover with orders now but there are usually enough targets for both platoons and eradicators. Besides, i'm not planning on geting platoons for orkses - more green bodies at the front seem better.

Leaning towards Punisher with Multi-melta sponsons. Flexible, and since you'll be going after heavy stuff with the main gun (thanks to lovely rending), there isn't so much of a conflict between the weapons anymore.

Of course the next question is what tank(s) to go with him... I'm considering an Eradicator as it is so cheap and split fire is wonderful. (MM sponsons as well when you simply need to kill that land raider).

Personally, I'd go with

Pask, Vanquisher, PC sponsons (this was a great tank before, and now even cheaper)
2x Exterminator with HB sponsons.

In an idea world, you get split fire, and Pask can waste a Tank/MC while the Exterminators tear up either an infantry horde or light transport/vehicles. With the whole squadron twin-linked, you're hitting with a lot of shots on both.

If you don't get split-fire, you've still got the Vanquisher, Lascannon, Plasma Cannons and Exterminator Autocannons to hurt anything up to AV13 in a pinch, or 4 HB, the Exterminator Cannons and 2 plasma Cannons to hit infantry.

Alternatively, swap the Vanquisher for a Punisher, and put lascannons and MM on the Exterminators, moving them to the anti-vehicle role while the Punisher rips up hordes, and if Split Fire fails then the Rending Punisher cannon still has the potential to hurt the kind of targets the Exterminators are going after.

Punisher, Bolters, Lascannon if you move up. Vanquisher, Lascannon if you sit back.

Rending allows the Punisher to kill just about anything, even a Land Raider. The only thing it lacks is range, so if you don't expect to move forward at all go with the Vanquisher

One of my questions is: What should his squadron mates be?

Complimentary tanks? (i.e. similar range, targeting profile, etc)

Or different tanks? (i.e. more capable of engaging other targets, depending mostly on the Split Fire order)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
One of my questions is: What should his squadron mates be?

Complimentary. Sometimes you will fail the check, or want to do strike and shroud.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
One of my questions is: What should his squadron mates be?

Complimentary. Sometimes you will fail the check, or want to do strike and shroud.

That's what I figured too, but then I see army lists with Pask in a punisher and his squadron mate in a Vanquisher or some derpy as feth thing lie that.

I don't have my rule book in front of me. Does Preferred enemy allow Get's Hot re-rolls? If so, for Warlord Pask, I like a Vanquisher with Executioners as "bodyguard" tanks. 1's are the most important roll for those tanks, and it's awesome. General purpose non-Warlord Pask, the Punisher is just so freaking cool. I think bodyguards of Exterminators is the way to go in that case. They can both go after infantry or vehicles, and Exterminators are cheap.

Biophysical wrote:
I don't have my rule book in front of me. Does Preferred enemy allow Get's Hot re-rolls? If so, for Warlord Pask, I like a Vanquisher with Executioners as "bodyguard" tanks. 1's are the most important roll for those tanks, and it's awesome. General purpose non-Warlord Pask, the Punisher is just so freaking cool. I think bodyguards of Exterminators is the way to go in that case. They can both go after infantry or vehicles, and Exterminators are cheap.

This is exactly what I was talking about. In no way does an exterminator share the same target profile or weapon range as the Vanquisher. The Executioner even more so.

I didn't say Vanquisher and Exterminator, I said Vanquisher-Executioner and Punisher-Exterminator. Vanquishers and Executioners are both good vs. light armor, MCs, and heavy infantry.

So the Preferred Enemy does allow the Get hot re-rolls or ?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is exactly what I was talking about. In no way does an exterminator share the same target profile or weapon range as the Vanquisher. The Executioner even more so.

Well a vanquisher does share a lot of targets with the exterminator. Other than AV14, they are both able to hurt vehicles. Arm all of them with LC/MM and they do share a lot of targets.

What do people think of a full exterminator squad with LC/MM? Is rending any god with an autocannon? You lose the raw power of a punisher, but you gain range.

 Atheos wrote:
So the Preferred Enemy does allow the Get hot re-rolls or ?

I believe it does. I don't have the rule book in front of me, but I believe the Gets Hot! rule states that any re-roll ability such as Twin-Linked or BS6, etc... allows you to re-roll the overheat on a blast. Preferred enemy shouldn't allow you to re-roll the scatter, however.

Biophysical wrote:
I didn't say Vanquisher and Exterminator, I said Vanquisher-Executioner and Punisher-Exterminator. Vanquishers and Executioners are both good vs. light armor, MCs, and heavy infantry.

Vanquisher has no blasts, and therefore is quite ineffective against infantry and heavy infantry. The Vanquisher pens AV12 at 72" with a 5 on 2d6. The Executioner, at best, pens AV12 with a 6 on 1d6 at 36". It only gets worse as AV gets higher. The Vanquisher is not that spectacular against MC's - it's guns are really only likely to put 2 wounds on it (the main gun and the lascannon). Quite a waste, if there are vehicular targets to engage. The Vanquisher also can kill exactly 2 heavy infantry models, if it hits with both shots, wounds with both shots, and the enemy fails whatever invuln or cover they have. That's no better than a guardsmen squad with lasguns for 85 points more.

In my Tactica Imperialis for tanks, I would put the following strictures:

Vanquishers are for engaging armor. While they are certainly capable of killing other targets, its is a waste of valuable Vanquisher ammunition to put a single wound on a Monstrous Critter. It is also a waste of a Vanquisher round to kill an enemy Terminator or Centurion, provided the relevant saves are failed. However, to reiterate, if the enemy brings a tank (such as an enemy Pask) then the Vanquisher is the best option available.

Executioners are for engaging enemy infantry at close range. Possessing half the range of the Vanquisher and with dramatically reduced anti-tank capability, the Executioner shines against enemy infantry. Five small blasts are wonderful against heavy infantry and monstrous creatures, with more than double the potential wounds of the Vanquisher. The Executioner is valuable when the enemy possesses large numbers of Deep Striking heavy infantry (such as terminators) and when the enemy has several monstrous critters.

Their ranges do not match up, their antitank capability does not match up, their antipersonnel capabilities do not match up - about the only thing that they both have is AP2, and that's like saying that a hotshot lasgun should be paired with a battlecannon, because they're both AP3.

Vanquishers go best with other Vanquishers or Annihilators if you allow forgeworlds, though Annihilators are an edition out of date and thus incredibly overcosted compared to other Leman Russes (they also weren't that good to begin with). Though, the Forgeworld Leman Russ variants are terrible as a rule and are generally artifacts of the pre-5e IG codex era.

With just hull lascannons, hunter-killers if you're feeling lucky, and main guns you can threaten most MCs and vehicles in the game with immediate death on turn one.

As Leman Russes can't take sponson lascannons, none of the sponson guns have the range to really match up with the Vanquisher's two primary weapons, but I suppose plasma cannons have a decent enough reach.

My ideal Vanquisher squadron would be three Vanquishers with hull lascannons. That way, any enemy tank that is a priority target ends up looking like swiss cheese before it can move, and they will kill a tank a turn most likely.

If the enemy does not bring tanks, they're basically useless - they can nail a monstrous creature with some spectacular rolls, but that's not really worth it.

OTOH 3 Vanquishers are just cool in a tank-destroyer-y, world-war-2-tank-ace sort of way, lol.

Has anyone thought about pairing a Vanquisher with... a regular Russ? Both Str 8...

 ultimentra wrote:
Has anyone thought about pairing a Vanquisher with... a regular Russ? Both Str 8...

This actually wouldn't be so bad. The problem I have with it is that a regular Russ is just kind of garbage anymore (which is sad because I have a whole company of regular russes in my regiment). The Russ can pen tanks alright, but without any modifiers on the chart, killing them is difficult, and it's basically useless against AV14 (though not as badly as the executioner). With AP3 it isn't as good at hunting MC's (unless you play the new Nids. Sorry guys).

Worst of all, though, if it fires its main gun, every other gun on the tank must snap fire, so upgrading it is pointless - meaning it really is just a single battlecannon basically.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Preferred enemy shouldn't allow you to re-roll the scatter, however.

It (almost) certainly does. There's a thread in YMDC, I think on the first page.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is exactly what I was talking about. In no way does an exterminator share the same target profile or weapon range as the Vanquisher. The Executioner even more so.

Well a vanquisher does share a lot of targets with the exterminator. Other than AV14, they are both able to hurt vehicles. Arm all of them with LC/MM and they do share a lot of targets.

This is roughly my thinking as well. A LC/PC Vanquisher is great against Tanks and MCs, but also has the firepower to hurt heavy infantry or MEQ. It's unlikely that you're not going to find something to hurt with it.

The Exterminator is just as effective against non-AV13/14, trading power for shots, but also more capable against infantry (Especially with HB).

Combining the two (1 Vanquisher, LC/PC and 2 Exterminators, LC/HB)means that, even if you don't split-fire, you get

Anti-tank: 8 TL S7 AP4. 3 S9 AP2, and 1 S8 AP2 Armourbane, all at 48", and at 36" you another 2 S7 AP2 blasts.

Anti-infantry: 12 S5 AP4, 8 S7 AP4, 2 S7 AP2, and the AT weapons.

In other words, they do actually have a lot of overlap if you match the hull weapons, and are just as useful against their main target types if you Split Fire.

I wonder if the people proposing Str 7 antitank weapons realize that the very same tanks they plan on bringing are literally immune.

You guys realize how much AV14 is going to start appearing on tables with this codex, right?

They're proposing autocannons because they're good guns in Exterminator form. A unit doesn't have to kill itself to be good, and splitting fire is an option with Tank Commanders.

Biophysical wrote:
They're proposing autocannons because they're good guns in Exterminator form. A unit doesn't have to kill itself to be good, and splitting fire is an option with Tank Commanders.

Now I am back to being confused - is it better to take tanks of similar capabilities in a Tank Commander squadron, or to take variant capabilities and then rely on getting the Split Fire order?

Unrelated, this is more of an idle speculation. GW clearly values Ordnance very highly in the new codex, if you go by points costs, but most players consider these to be the weakest. I wonder if there are some changes to Ordnance on the way. Then again, maybe they just play their test games with bunched up models without cover.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I wonder if the people proposing Str 7 antitank weapons realize that the very same tanks they plan on bringing are literally immune.

You guys realize how much AV14 is going to start appearing on tables with this codex, right?

Guard are the only codex that are going to be bringing AV14 en masse, and against Marines Exterminators will obliterate Rhino-chassis vehicles with ease, against Eldar they are a good way to put glances on AV12 thanks to the good RoF, against Crons they're great once you pen the shields, and against Tau the AP4 (combined with HB) can hurt their infantry as well as a Demolisher can.

Even against IG, they'll be hurting Chimera-chassis vehicles pretty badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
They're proposing autocannons because they're good guns in Exterminator form. A unit doesn't have to kill itself to be good, and splitting fire is an option with Tank Commanders.

Now I am back to being confused - is it better to take tanks of similar capabilities in a Tank Commander squadron, or to take variant capabilities and then rely on getting the Split Fire order?

I think a mix of both. As I demonstrated a few posts back, the Vanquisher and Exterminators have a good amount of overlap, but are also proficient on their own.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
They're proposing autocannons because they're good guns in Exterminator form. A unit doesn't have to kill itself to be good, and splitting fire is an option with Tank Commanders.

Now I am back to being confused - is it better to take tanks of similar capabilities in a Tank Commander squadron, or to take variant capabilities and then rely on getting the Split Fire order?

I think you take tanks with some overlap but different specialties. You can cover a wide range of threats and make use of both split firing and single target firing. I don't really think there are that many terrible ways to run TC squadrons, though. I'd just stay away from gross range disparities. That's just an opinion, though