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Hey forum I have a friend who I play every other week who is opposed to the must roll for reserves on turn 2 and has amended these rules to be the turn player can choose to roll for reserves on any turn after the 1st but must bring them in on turn 5. What do you think, should he he allowed to bring reserves when he desires or not?

Why doesn't your friend want to bring on reserves?

I mean you're free to play the game however you like. But it sounds like he is doing this to benefit himself rather than improve the actual game.

He thinks that since he plays Grey Knights it makes more sense that they would deep strike in at a more opportune time than when the die roll forces him to come on the board. He believes that reserves should arrive at the player's discretion rather than the dice's whim.

If you allow units to hide in reserves, you can have weak, scoring units safe there all game, and then dash on at the end to seize objectives. This would be casually easy for eldar jetbikes, but other armies can pull the same kind of tricks.

Also with glass hammer units like the crimson hunter, you want to come on after other flyers, so that you get to shoot them before they get to blow you out of the sky.

There are a number of things that let you mess with reserve rolls. If he want to keep things off the table, he should invest in those.

If it's a casual game and both players don't mind then I cant see it being a problem.

I personally wouldn't play with this rule as its not a rule I think needs any sort of change.

There are tons of reason to not bring reserves.

A big one is say you have a group of cultist that you want to camp your home objective. If you keep them in for say 3 or 4 turns that is 3 or 4 turns they arn't being shot at.

The problem is that there are tools in the game that cost points to fix exactly the problem your friend describes. And which he would rather just houserule away than pay points for, which to me seems disingenuous.

Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:
He thinks that since he plays Grey Knights it makes more sense that they would deep strike in at a more opportune time than when the die roll forces him to come on the board. He believes that reserves should arrive at the player's discretion rather than the dice's whim.

And I think that as a Tyranid player, I should be able to field ten gaunts for every point and have ten point carnifexes and hive tyrants, and that my enemies should run out of bullets if they shoot at me too much.

You can't always get what you want.

 Kain wrote:

Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:
He thinks that since he plays Grey Knights it makes more sense that they would deep strike in at a more opportune time than when the die roll forces him to come on the board. He believes that reserves should arrive at the player's discretion rather than the dice's whim.

And I think that as a Tyranid player, I should be able to field ten gaunts for every point and have ten point carnifexes and hive tyrants, and that my enemies should run out of bullets if they shoot at me too much.

You can't always get what you want.

Well the bullets thing is sort of a thing for the endless swarm...

The only way I would think to change the reserve role is maybe take a base number, and subtract the turn number from that and role every tuurn to see if they come in. The way I tried this before we used 7 as a base, so turn 1 was 6+ for reserves 5+ on turn 2 etc. Wasn't too bad, little faster than normal though ( I had good roles)

 Kain wrote:

Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:
He thinks that since he plays Grey Knights it makes more sense that they would deep strike in at a more opportune time than when the die roll forces him to come on the board. He believes that reserves should arrive at the player's discretion rather than the dice's whim.

And I think that as a Tyranid player, I should be able to field ten gaunts for every point and have ten point carnifexes and hive tyrants, and that my enemies should run out of bullets if they shoot at me too much.

You can't always get what you want.

I love this!

The issues with this have largely been addressed. The ability to hold units in reserve until turn 5 is a huge benefit to some armies. While not as bad as when you were able to full reserve armies, this removes a great deal of interaction from the game.

IF you both agree fine, but it is not a balanced rule by anystretch (I hold my 3 man accolyte squad in reserve until turn 5, and they run onto an objective turn 5 game ends I win....)

 Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:
He thinks that since he plays Grey Knights it makes more sense that they would deep strike in at a more opportune time than when the die roll forces him to come on the board. He believes that reserves should arrive at the player's discretion rather than the dice's whim.

And I think that as a Tyranid player, I should be able to field ten gaunts for every point and have ten point carnifexes and hive tyrants, and that my enemies should run out of bullets if they shoot at me too much.

You can't always get what you want.

I love this!

Remind him that if he wants his deploy whenever he wants Grey Knights, you get five ork boyz per point, +1'' movement from painting your orks red, 6+ FNP because Orks are dead 'ard and Gazghkull is now a monstrous creature.

Because if we're going to make the armies true to the fluff you may as well go all out.

Lol, I could sympathize until I saw "turn five". Dude is either powergamer scum or simply has no idea what he's talking about and what his rules change would mean for the game.

 Kain wrote:

And I think that as a Tyranid player, I should be able to field ten gaunts for every point and have ten point carnifexes and hive tyrants, and that my enemies should run out of bullets if they shoot at me too much.

But probably will alwayz hit on a 2+ rerollable. Cuase you need to have some sort of a 'gift' to miss the wall of flesh.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And I think that as a Tyranid player, I should be able to field ten gaunts for every point and have ten point carnifexes and hive tyrants, and that my enemies should run out of bullets if they shoot at me too much.

But probably will alwayz hit on a 2+ rerollable. Cuase you need to have some sort of a 'gift' to miss the wall of flesh.

Eh they were expendable anyway.

Mechanically Space Marine Drop Pods and the last Daemons book seemed to get along fine with the half now/roll for the other half system, it seems like that might be a reasonable place to go for altering the Reserves system in such a way that doesn't make them too reliable (turning flyers into a game of chicken) while allowing for a little more control.

I think if he wants to use this tactic, he should use the Grey Knights psychic communion, not just simply say they don't come in. There are rules in place to simulate "tactically waiting" other than just saying that your unit doesn't come in. Have him pay for a comms relay to reroll those unwanted reserve passes. That way you, as an opponent, have a chance to shoot/charge/kill his units instead of waiting through 5 turns of attrition before his entire army drops in and tables you. Definitely an unfair advantage for your opponent.

 Warboss.'eadsmasha wrote:
He thinks that since he plays Grey Knights it makes more sense that they would deep strike in at a more opportune time than when the die roll forces him to come on the board. He believes that reserves should arrive at the player's discretion rather than the dice's whim.

Yeah, that's the point. There's the time that the general wants his troops to enter the fray, and then there's when they actually make it their due to the various events going on around a battle. Hence the dice. As mentioned above, I can see your friend's viewpoint and don't think he thought this through to the extent that he'd see the advantages given above, but I still wouldn't approve. If he wants more surety in his reserve arrival, the codex offers ways for him to pursue it. Otherwise, the old 'no plan survives first contact with the enemy' applies.

What I hate about reserves is when you get to turn two and move even just one model, then go "oh yeah! reserves!" only to have the opposing player say: "sorry, you already began your turn, no reserves."

I had that happen last night! Buddy says "Oh I forgot to roll for Njal Stormcallers storm table!". My reply "sure go ahead but that has to happen at the beginning of Njals turn next time". Okay... turn two I forget my reserves and move one unit. "Hey can I roll for reserves, I forgot?" the answer? No.

So you know what? Skrew being a nice. Play the damn game exactly how it's written.

darkcloak wrote:
What I hate about reserves is when you get to turn two and move even just one model, then go "oh yeah! reserves!" only to have the opposing player say: "sorry, you already began your turn, no reserves."

I had that happen last night! Buddy says "Oh I forgot to roll for Njal Stormcallers storm table!". My reply "sure go ahead but that has to happen at the beginning of Njals turn next time". Okay... turn two I forget my reserves and move one unit. "Hey can I roll for reserves, I forgot?" the answer? No.

So you know what? Skrew being a nice. Play the damn game exactly how it's written.

That's more to do with your opponent than the game. I would have totally let you roll for reserves.

Yeah, as would I. I am mostly forgiving with forgetting stuff, but not always!

Looking at the match today, had to carry it over from last night, apparently 2500pts takes awhile!

Normally I don't care about forgetting stuff. I play Iron Hands and let me tell you... I have never made an IWND roll ever, mostly because I always forget. Maybe I should write that on a tank as kind of an army slogan? Normally I don't care if I've forgotten, I just try to remember for next time. What pissed me off about that scenario was that my opponent had nothing in reserve, I had 4 units in reserve. Of course it's going to be beneficial to the other guy if I forget reserves! I let him roll on Njals storm table even though he wanted to do it in his shooting phase, and then I get shafted because I moved a unit? Buddy you moved your whole army and now you want to use an ability that Njal has to use at the start of his turn? No no.

Your "friend" with the GK, he's just being a loser by trying to mess with reserve rolls. This is exactly the kind of sneaky underhanded stuff that makes me mad. Your pal knows full well what the rules are and if he doesn't know how to modify his reserve rolls then that is his own problem.

As for me... well from now on if you forget something, then suck it up and maybe bring a notepad to the games table.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
What I hate about reserves is when you get to turn two and move even just one model, then go "oh yeah! reserves!" only to have the opposing player say: "sorry, you already began your turn, no reserves."

I had that happen last night! Buddy says "Oh I forgot to roll for Njal Stormcallers storm table!". My reply "sure go ahead but that has to happen at the beginning of Njals turn next time". Okay... turn two I forget my reserves and move one unit. "Hey can I roll for reserves, I forgot?" the answer? No.

So you know what? Skrew being a nice. Play the damn game exactly how it's written.

That's more to do with your opponent than the game. I would have totally let you roll for reserves.

They can't stop you.

It's not like assaulting , or forgetting to shoot with a unit, or that guy standing in ruins that you forgot about and didn't move. Reserves aren't optional, therefore you can't 'forget' about them and move on with the game.

Same way with on-going assaults. You're given no provision to bypass them, so if you finish up the assault phase, tell the opponent, 'your turn,' and then realize you both overlooked that ongoing fight over in one corner of the board, your opponent can't legitimately argue that it's too late, you've already said your turn is over.

PJ, I agree with you that Reserves are not really something you can "bypass", but in the same breath I also think that it's your job to remember your special rules.

If everyone just says it's okay to forget stuff and come back to it later then why the heck do we even use the rulebook? I agree that reserve rolls should not be denied to a player, but also I think that both players have a responsibility to remember these rules. When turn two rolls around BOTH players ought to remember. But if you go a whole phase without rolling for reserves then I think it's pretty safe to say that the Marine in charge of radioing the reinforcements in got shot or is equally preoccupied.

Players should remember their rules. If you "forget" something, too bad son. War punishes mistakes. Play it RAW or don't play at all!

Play it RAW or don't play at all!

Which would be you don't get to skip rolling for reserves, no matter what the reason.

if "forgetting" reserves makes you skip it entirely, you'd just move a model and go "oh, darn, I guess I'll have to wait until after your flier comes on to roll for mine... what a shame."

reserve rolls have to happen, if the models you moved are that much of a problem, move 'em back.

 some bloke wrote:
if "forgetting" reserves makes you skip it entirely, you'd just move a model and go "oh, darn, I guess I'll have to wait until after your flier comes on to roll for mine... what a shame."

reserve rolls have to happen, if the models you moved are that much of a problem, move 'em back.

We play it as...

if you have to do it, you do it even if you forgot. If you discover that you forgot during your opponents turn, you still do it, you just don't get to benefit from it if it's reserves.

If you were going to do it, we let you do it as if you were in that spot.

So, you can cast prescience if you started moving, but your psyker can only cast from where he started