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Does having a BS of 6 or higher allow the re-roll of the scatter dice and 2D6?

No. having a ballistic skill of 6+ only allows a re-roll if you roll a 1 'to hit'. Blasts never (well, normally) roll to hit and therefore never 'miss', they 'scatter' instead. Different mechanic.

Yes, as long as you have the ability to choose to reroll to hit rolls you may reroll blasts according to page 33.

having a ballistic skill of 6+ doesn't grant you a re-roll to hit unless you fulfill a specific action (rolling a to-hit roll of 1).

If you do not perform that action, you do not have the ability to re-roll to hit. Blast weapons are by function incapable of ever actually fulfilling that particular roll.

 Neorealist wrote:
having a ballistic skill of 6+ doesn't grant you a re-roll to hit unless you fulfill a specific action (rolling a to-hit roll of 1).

If you do not perform that action, you do not have the ability to re-roll to hit. Blast weapons are by function incapable of ever actually fulfilling that particular roll.

While I'm iffy on allowing 'reroll rolls of 1' abilities to essentially confer rerolls to scatter, I'm not comfortable with this logic either. There are many abilities that allow rerolls to shots that miss, (such as Prescience or the Command and Control Node) and no one is trying to argue that you only get to re-roll Blasts affected by those rules if they fulfill the condition of 'failing to hit.'

Personally, despite the vehement insistence of both sides of the argument, I don't feel like the RAI are clear when it comes to abilities that reroll misses on a 1 and Blast weapons. Personally, I just resolve this conflict by playing it however my opponent wants to.

That's nice. Your opinion is interesting, but doesn't really seem to address the difference between the blast rules and any of those other options you seem to find relevant to this topic.

To be clear, this is the literal RAW I'm referencing when I made the above statement: "...If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To hit with ranged attacks..."

Note the specific condition in which a model 'gains' a reroll. The model does not have the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit until that condition has been met, and therefore the rule on page 33 never applies in this instance.

 Neorealist wrote:
That's nice. Your opinion is interesting, but doesn't really seem to address the difference between the blast rules and any of those other options you seem to find relevant to this topic.

To be clear, this is the literal RAW I'm referencing when I made the above statement: "...If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To hit with ranged attacks..."

Note the specific condition in which a model 'gains' a reroll. The model does not have the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit until that condition has been met, and therefore the rule on page 33 never applies in this instance.

Re rolling blast's does not seem to care about conditions if you read it. Debated heavily in a previous topic.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
Does having a BS of 6 or higher allow the re-roll of the scatter dice and 2D6?

No, because it is not a to-hit roll.
It already receives -6 to scatter anyway; that's your bonus.

 Neorealist wrote:
Note the specific condition in which a model 'gains' a reroll. The model does not have the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit until that condition has been met, and therefore the rule on page 33 never applies in this instance.

So abilities such as Prescience and Precog can never give a re-roll for Blasts either.
Their conditions for a reroll also cannot be met.
Only if they miss can they grant a reroll.
Blasts never roll to hit, and never generate a miss. They simply generate a number of hits between 0 and X (X being the maximum number of bases that can fit under the Blast. Also note the Hit! on a scatter dice is not the same as a standard "hit"). They don't "miss" they simply fail to generate any hits.

So if conditions apply, then pretty much only Twin-Linked can ever allow a reroll.
To allow any other ability is hypocritical.

That does not hold up to his argument, different situation.

BS 6 only grants the reroll on the trigger, just like Precience and Precog only grants the reroll when cast.

If you haven't cast precience or precog this turn, then no they will not grant your blast a reroll.

BS6 only gains the ability to reroll on a to-hit of 1; this is different from UM CT Tactical Doctrine which grants the ability to reroll to hits of for the turn it is active, which does allow reroll on blasts. The difference is in the wording, BS6 does not on its own have the ability to reroll to hits(The effect on non-blast shots is basically the same thing though, which may cause your confusion on the issue)

Ah fair enough, I had completely missed the "gains", as opposed to a condition "allowing" a pre-existing reroll.

 grendel083 wrote:
Ah fair enough, I had completely missed the "gains", as opposed to a condition "allowing" a pre-existing reroll.

Could you explain it to me, then? Apparently I'm too thick to see the difference.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Ah fair enough, I had completely missed the "gains", as opposed to a condition "allowing" a pre-existing reroll.

Could you explain it to me, then? Apparently I'm too thick to see the difference.

You cast prescience on the unit. It is now allowed to reroll all missed "to hit" rolls. The blast rules specify that when allowed to reroll "to hit", you may reroll the scatter dice instead.

BS6 does not have an inherent reroll. You roll to hit and only if you roll a "1" do you get to reroll the dice. Since you don't roll "to hit" with a blast weapon, you can never roll a "1" on the to hit roll to meet the conditions that allow a reroll.

OK you have 3 types of abilities:

1) Ability, simply you have the ability
2) Conditional Abilities, an Ability that you only have under certain conditions
and
3) Abilities with Conditions, An ability that you have that can only be used under certain situations.

May Re-roll all/any to-hit rolls is the first type.

Re-roll failed to-hit rolls, or Re-roll 1s to hit is the third type.

BS 6+ falls into the second type, where you only gain the ability to re-roll under certain conditions, in this case when a 1 is rolled on the to-hit rolls.

Precience and Precog are also of the third type in that you have to cast the power in order for the unit to have the ability, then once the power is cast, the unit has an ability of the second type: you have the condition of a failed to-hit in order to reroll.

Abilities, and Abilities with Conditions for re-rolls to hit always allow the re-roll for scatter.

Conditional Abilities for re-rolls to hit only allow the re-roll for scatter when the conditions that grant the re-roll to hit to the model are met(Casting the power, Activating the Chapter Tactic, or in the case of BS6+ making an impossible to-hit roll of 1).

Neorealist has the Quote from the BRB that proves BS 6+ is a conditional re-roll ability highlighted in yellow in his post above.

 Neorealist wrote:
having a ballistic skill of 6+ doesn't grant you a re-roll to hit unless you fulfill a specific action (rolling a to-hit roll of 1).

If you do not perform that action, you do not have the ability to re-roll to hit. Blast weapons are by function incapable of ever actually fulfilling that particular roll.

Name a single rule that gives you the ability to re-roll to hit rolls that isn't conditional.

If we accept that any ability that does not grant the ability to re-roll regardless of which number appears, the only way to get a re-roll with blasts would be with Twin-Linked due to the fact that it explicitly states that it does grant the ability to re-roll blasts.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
having a ballistic skill of 6+ doesn't grant you a re-roll to hit unless you fulfill a specific action (rolling a to-hit roll of 1).

If you do not perform that action, you do not have the ability to re-roll to hit. Blast weapons are by function incapable of ever actually fulfilling that particular roll.

Name a single rule that gives you the ability to re-roll to hit rolls that isn't conditional.

Are you just ignoring my posts?

But I will answer again: Twin linked. The Ability to re-roll is not conditional, actually re-rolling is.

Sorry, replied to your post before reading further down.

The way the rule is worded in that it does not grant the re-roll until the roll is made is a compelling argument, I will change my position on this particular issue to support yours.

I don't really want to address other re-roll granting abilities here. (since as you've noticed they are often worded differently and just as often heavily contested). Addressing blasts and 6+ ballistic skill: your model is not granted a re-roll until you've rolled a one to hit, which you are incapable of doing if you are rolling scatter instead of to hit for blast and large blast weapons.

That is the essence of my argument, and one which applies to having a high ballistic skill specifically, not generally to every single other way a re-roll could have been granted.

 Neorealist wrote:
That is the essence of my argument, and one which applies to having a high ballistic skill specifically, not generally to every single other way a re-roll could have been granted.

So you'll grant that your argument may not be consistent across all abilities?

It's based exclusively on the wording of the rules for having a high ballistic skill, so I'd presume it almost 'has' to be inconsistent with how other re-roll granting abilities work. (well, unless they are worded identically anyway)

So yes it probably is not consistent across all abilities?

I can certainly review other re-roll granting abilities to determine their function too, but I feel that such is beyond the scope of this particular thread and that the question of how a high ballistic skill interacts with blasts has been answered by the above.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
That is the essence of my argument, and one which applies to having a high ballistic skill specifically, not generally to every single other way a re-roll could have been granted.

So you'll grant that your argument may not be consistent across all abilities?

His argument doesn't need to be, it is case specific to the situation where you only have the ability in the event that you roll a 1 to-hit.
If you do not roll a 1 to-hit with BS6+, you have no ability to re-roll.

In nearly every other case(of this type of argument) you already have the ability to re-roll to-hit rolls(of 1).

Let me make this as simple as it should be.

Q. Do models/units with a BS of six get to re-roll scatter weapons based on their high BS?

A. NO, the model/unit in question gets to reduce scatter by six inches. That is the extent of the benefit of having a high ballistic skill.

In all the posts above the one thing I didn't see was that the "re-roll" granted by rolling a one has to get a 6 on the second roll in order to hit. If we accept that the models would get a re-roll, would we allow this if the BS was reduced to 1 for the re-roll? The second roll for high ballistic skills is dependent on how good the models BS is. in order to get a true re-roll with the same to hit on both first and second rolls you would need a BS ten. Having said that I would say that a BS 10 is the only BS is that would grant a re-roll to scatter without penalty and at that point why bother?

So your stance is that only Twin-Linked can grant a re-roll, correct?

Yup, BS 6+ allows you to reroll 1's to hit and reroll gets hot, but not reroll the scatter dice, it just reduces your scatter range by your BS

I still don't get how what twin-linked does or doesn't do is relevant to this discussion? I suspect this topic has drawn in some folk more interested in discussing how re-rolls interact with blast weapons in general. If so, I'd suggest either replying in the appropriate thread for that or if none exists, creating one to discuss it?

In the context of the OPs question your discussion of twin-linking or other sources of re-rolls is not exactly pertinent so far as I can tell.

What it comes down to Neo is the statement in the rules for re-rolling blasts that says that if you have the ability to re-roll To Hit then you can choose to re-roll the scatter for a blast.

Now, re-rolls rely on some trigger, i.e. "re-roll 1's" or "re-roll misses" so that means to gain the ability to re-roll an event must occur that cannot occur when you roll a blast template because you don't make a To Hit roll.

Twinlinked is the only rule that specifically says that you re-roll if you do not get a "Hit" on the scatter dice.

The question is, and it is pertinent to the OP question; is the ability to re-roll something that accrues only upon an event occurring or is it enough to have the ability to re-roll regardless of it needing a specific event to happen.

In this case is it "A model with BS6 has the ability to make re-rolls" or "A model with BS6 has the ability to make re-rolls IF it rolls a 1" ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Now, re-rolls rely on some trigger, i.e. "re-roll 1's" or "re-roll misses" so that means to gain the ability to re-roll an event must occur that cannot occur when you roll a blast template because you don't make a To Hit roll.

Not really, most re-rolls are already granted to the model with some sort of condition attached. BS 6+ is worded entirely differently, there is no condition to the re-roll itself, but in order to be granted the re-roll you must have rolled a certain number or less for your to hit roll.

I'm really not arguing one way or the other as I can see that both sides have merit but the BS6 + re-roll is very much a conditional one

"If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."

The condition being rolling a 1, which then "gains" the model a re-roll.

Yes. It's the difference between the model having a reroll that is only allowed to be used if you've rolled a 1, and the model not having a reroll at all 'until' you roll a 1.

From what folk are saying it seems that there are quite a few abilities similar to the first wording. However the BS 6+ rule definitely falls into the second style.

HIWPI: If you roll a 1 with one of your scatter dice, you have to re-roll it

"oh I rolled a 3 and a 1 for my scatter"
"re-roll the one"
"feth I rolled a 6...now I missed"