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So, Rubric Marines have been considered the worst of the big four's cult Marines for several editions now. Right now, at a whopping 150 points for a 5 man squad, you get CSM's with fearless, an AP 3 boltgun, a 4+ invul save, and Slow and Purposeful. Nice, but far from 150 points nice. Why the heck are they so expensive? You also get a level 1 psyker with a force weapon, but you pay through the teeth for him. It just seems unfair to 1k Sons fans that everyone else gets a better unit, even Khorne Berzerkers, who got hit hardest by the nerf to CC and boost to shooting. I think Rubric Marines need something of their own to give them a hand up. I was thinking of the following changes:

Thousand Sons: Same as codex except with the following additions-
Wargear: Frag and Krak grenades, Witch Bolts
Special Rules: Deep Strike, Split Fire (Aspiring Sorcerer only, the Sorcerer may target a different unit than the rest of his squad)

Witch Bolts: The Thousand Sons use a variety of special bolts inscribed with sorcerous runes that give them special properties. These work the same as Special Issue Ammunition for Sternguard Vets. The 1k Sons squad must choose to fire one type of ammo per turn.
Inferno Bolts- Same as in Codex: CSM, a bolter with AP 3
Warpfire Bolts- These bolts explode at the slightest touch, spraying burning white phosphorus all over the target. Range: 24 S: 4 AP: 5 Assault 2, Ignores Cover
Rift Bolts- These bolts tear open a hole an the fabric of reality as they strike their target, violently tearing at everything in the surrounding area in an attempt to drag it into the Warp. Range: 12 S: 6 AP: 3 Heavy 1

This makes them more deadly at shooting and the ability to Deep Strike will hopefully make them considerably more versatile. The Sorcerer getting to target a different unit makes him considerably nastier as well. They're still expensive, but in more of "you get what you pay for" way. Whadaya think?

As a 1K sons player, I like these ideas, but I don't see it happening.

Make the sorc able to buff the unit. He's actually half-controling the rubrics. Drop the by-default ap3.

So, what interesting rules can be granted to them in my opinion:

Thousand Sons:
4 Thousand Sons
1 Aspiring Sorcerror

160 pts
May take up to 20 Thousand Sons for 25 ppm

Wargear:
bolters (Thousand Sons)
Force Weapon, Bolt Pistol (Aspiring Sorcerror)
Aura of Dark Glory

Marks:
Mark of Tzeench

Special rules:
Veterans of The Long War
Deep Strike
Aspiring Sorcerror of The 1000 Sons (Aspiring Sorcerror only)
Mastery Level 1 (Aspiring Sorcerror only)

At the start of shooting phase, aspiring sorcerror can forego shooting to manifest one of theese powers upon his squad:
Inferno Bolts - 1 WC. Bolters wielded by Thousand Sons become: s5 ap5 Rapid Fire 18', Rending
Warpfire Bolts - 1 WC. Bolters wielded by Thousand Sons become: s4 ap5, Rapid Fire 2/3, Ignore Cover
Warpflame Aura - 1 WC. Thousand Sons recieve 3++ and can re-roll failed armor saves. This does not apply to Aspiring Sorcerror himself.

If you think it's too much, theese rules can become blessings so won't be usable the first turn they arrive from reserves or will force them to sit in rhinos like they do now instead.

A simple FNP and drop in points would help. Heck, anything would help.
Worst. Marines. Ever.

 MWHistorian wrote:
A simple FNP and drop in points would help. Heck, anything would help.
Worst. Marines. Ever.

I actually specifically avoided this route, because it puts them in the exact same niche as Plague Marines and Noise Marines. I wanted the Tsons to be different, and Deep Strike seems like a way to do that that's both fitting to the fluff and useful.

.sub-zero- As a 1K sons player, I like these ideas, but I don't see it happening.

Give it a try in a friendly game and see how it works! The proposed rule section isn't for tournaments, but if your opponent is cool with you trying it out in casual play, well that's the whole point!

Then just use LOTD codex for them.

As a DA/SM player I only faced a squad of thousands sons once, they were scary and I did not dared to get my marines close.

Then I managed to somehow get into assault with my sternguard(after they killed a bunch of my dudes) and won the battle.
However, I would like to think it was to my tactics rather than thousands sons being bad, understanding that in ranged combat thousands sons have all the advantage, while in close combat they would be equal to marines and against an sternguard squad, they would be inferior.

Just looking at their cost on paper, I would say the look really good, they are basically like a sternguard, lacks the asknf/combat squads but has ap 3 without gets hot, 4+ invuln and level 1 sorcerer (thou only with a veteran statline).
If I would be playing Chaos Space Marines, I would consider them a viable unit.

So my questions is how do you use them and why do you think they suck? Do you use them as a gunline/fear factor (that strategy worked on me) or do you suicide them like a sternguard? Getting these guys into close combat with a MEQ unit is of course a bad idea, what do you do tactically to prevent them from being assault/flanked.

If the warpfire bolts explode at the "slightest touch" won't twigs and things frequently cause them to blow up harmlessly before they reach their intended target. At least when the target is in cover.

I'd swap the names of Warpfire and Inferno bolts. The Warpfire bolts would be good at penetrating stuff due to being warp-based weapons whereas the Inferno bolts set fire to stuff, causing an Inferno. I'd also change the fluff to be some sort of unholy or cursed Prometheum, kinda like a warp equivalent of the Psyflame weaponry used by the Grey Knights (psychically charged flames seems rather fitting for 1kSons as well. What I really like, though, is the S6 ammo. It gives the unit some much-needed Oomph against things other than MEQs.

The changes in range and the type of weapon (rapid fire/assault2/heavy1) makes it feel like it is the weapon that is changing more than the bolts. Its a sensible mechanic to balance the different shooting modes, but I think the gun itself should be what is changing each turn. Would make for some nice conversion opportunities too.

How about this.

Warpfire Bolts: S4 AP3 Assualt 1
Inferno Bolts: S4 AP5 Rapid Fire, Soul Blaze
Rift Bolts: S5 AP3 Heavy 1, Gets Hot

And the Sorcerer has to spend his warp charge to imbue them with the bolts as blessings. As to Deep Strike I don't really like that idea. Where is the fluff? Also a 15 point decrease.

flodihn wrote:


Then I managed to somehow get into assault with my sternguard(after they killed a bunch of my dudes) and won the battle.
However, I would like to think it was to my tactics rather than thousands sons being bad, understanding that in ranged combat thousands sons have all the advantage, while in close combat they would be equal to marines and against an sternguard squad, they would be inferior.

Just looking at their cost on paper, I would say the look really good, they are basically like a sternguard, lacks the asknf/combat squads but has ap 3 without gets hot, 4+ invuln and level 1 sorcerer (thou only with a veteran statline).
If I would be playing Chaos Space Marines, I would consider them a viable unit.

So my questions is how do you use them and why do you think they suck? Do you use them as a gunline/fear factor (that strategy worked on me) or do you suicide them like a sternguard? Getting these guys into close combat with a MEQ unit is of course a bad idea, what do you do tactically to prevent them from being assault/flanked.

They suck because they are expensive and die just as easily to bolters as 13point marines
They suck because the sorcerer has to take crap awful Tzeench powers that rarely share a target with the squad.


Sternguard are good, because they have:
3 types of rounds, rather than just AP2
Are decent in assault(better than Tsons anyway)
Have drop pods
Have combi weapons
Can overwatch

I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP. Its the sorcerer thats really a drag for me. He's 58 pts by my count and because the Tzeentch table is utter garbage its totally wasted. Fixing the Tz table and giving the sorc splitfire is all thats needed imo.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP. Its the sorcerer thats really a drag for me. He's 58 pts by my count and because the Tzeentch table is utter garbage its totally wasted. Fixing the Tz table and giving the sorc splitfire is all thats needed imo.

SNP isnt really an advantage when overwatch is the new sex of this edition and they dont have any heavy weapons.

 Exergy wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP. Its the sorcerer thats really a drag for me. He's 58 pts by my count and because the Tzeentch table is utter garbage its totally wasted. Fixing the Tz table and giving the sorc splitfire is all thats needed imo.

SNP isnt really an advantage when overwatch is the new sex of this edition and they dont have any heavy weapons.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was an advantage. With the changes to rapid fire I view it as strictly a disadvantage for TSons. I just meant that you pay 10 points and get those three things (oh and fearless) and that I think thats an ok price for those special rules good and bad. But that sorcerer, he's a lead weight for the rubrics who already just 'ok'

If I could suggest, same points but.

Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.

Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models.

Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, same points but.

Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.

Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models.

Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

Let them have heavy bolters and flamers, all at AP 3

Let them fart at ap3. I mean come on, we can do better than just add ap3 and call it a day. Rubrics are a unique unit with a strong call to unique rules.

Given that they are one of the worst units in the Codex, I will hit them hard:
1) +1W.
2) Slow and Purposeful only applies when the Aspiring Sorcerer is dead.

Fixed.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP.

Just out of curiosity: taking the basic csm at 13 points as a starting point... how much points will you pay for:
1) getting rid of the obnoxious Champions of Chaos rule
2) getting immunity to all morale checks, sweeping advance and, if you retreat, regroup without rolling and being able to act normally in the same turn!!
3) getting deepstrike!
4) getting combat squads!
5) getting brotherhood of psykers with two quite useful powers!!
6) getting anti-psyker grenades
7) getting preferred enemy against a faction
8) getting a -1 Ld for every psyker that targets the unit!
9) getting a 10/15 points worth power weapon in every fething model!!!

If 10 pts are OK for you to get ap3, 4++, SnP... I take it you are saying about 50 points per models for units like the one I just described. More perhaps? 60?

 koooaei wrote:
Let them fart at ap3. I mean come on, we can do better than just add ap3 and call it a day. Rubrics are a unique unit with a strong call to unique rules.

with the changes I made heavy bolters are ap 2 due to them starting out at ap4, factor in that my rule as written also couples when the model fires and emplaced weapon, and the sorcerers ability to improve BS then you end up with a bastion of hell that most monstrous creatures and infantry would try and avoid. bit of a bummer about s5 being invalidated by av12 but I cant make them too buff.

a simple tweak but one that when looked at seem to require some nerfing....kinda weird that no one else spotted it

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, same points but.

Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.

Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models.

Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

I actually think this isn't a bad idea, but I'd still also give the Sorcerer Split Fire. I also think that Tzeentch psykers in general should get to choose between the Tzeentch, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines. Tzeentch is the psychic guy. His psykers being worse than the ones for other gods isn't really something that should happen.

 fallinq wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, same points but.
Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.
Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models.
Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

I actually think this isn't a bad idea, but I'd still also give the Sorcerer Split Fire. I also think that Tzeentch psykers in general should get to choose between the Tzeentch, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines. Tzeentch is the psychic guy. His psykers being worse than the ones for other gods isn't really something that should happen.

Yeah, the god specific tables are terrible, and forcing marked psykers to take them is lame.
Chaos, tzeench especially, not getting Divination; is just proof that GW hates Chaos and wants them to suck. That is like all Tzeench does.

 Exergy wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, same points but.
Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.
Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models.
Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

I actually think this isn't a bad idea, but I'd still also give the Sorcerer Split Fire. I also think that Tzeentch psykers in general should get to choose between the Tzeentch, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines. Tzeentch is the psychic guy. His psykers being worse than the ones for other gods isn't really something that should happen.

Yeah, the god specific tables are terrible, and forcing marked psykers to take them is lame.
Chaos, tzeench especially, not getting Divination; is just proof that GW hates Chaos and wants them to suck. That is like all Tzeench does.

Chaos Daemons are actually very good, with Tzeentch possibly being the best overall out of the Daemons.

Khorne on the other hand...urgh.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, same points but.
Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.
Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models.
Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

I actually think this isn't a bad idea, but I'd still also give the Sorcerer Split Fire. I also think that Tzeentch psykers in general should get to choose between the Tzeentch, Divination, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis disciplines. Tzeentch is the psychic guy. His psykers being worse than the ones for other gods isn't really something that should happen.

Yeah, the god specific tables are terrible, and forcing marked psykers to take them is lame.
Chaos, tzeench especially, not getting Divination; is just proof that GW hates Chaos and wants them to suck. That is like all Tzeench does.

Chaos Daemons are actually very good, with Tzeentch possibly being the best overall out of the Daemons.

Khorne on the other hand...urgh.

was talking about the CSM psykers with marks

Hypotheticaly if you would redesign the Tzeentch table, what powers would you put in it. Note, copying powers from other sources is a bit naff. Currently the only good power on the table is doombolt. I would love to see wartime make a return, but probably as the warp charge 2 power

My ideas
Primaris
Doombolt (warp charge 1)
S8 ap1 beam attack

1-2
Horror strike (1-3 warp charges)
Witchfire that summons d6 horrors per warp charge expended, the horrors vanish at the end of the turn, the horrors can charge on turn of summoning and if they vanish while in cc inflict d3 s4 hits with haywire on the unit they attacked for each one that dissapers this way.

3-4
Tzeentchian gateway (1-3 warp charges)
Witchfire power select a unit within 18 Inches and move it 6 inches in any direction per warp charge used ignoring the effects of terrain. If it is your own unit you dont need to roll to hit. If the unit does not possess a model with the mark of tzeentch, or demon of tzeentch, inflict d6 wounds per warp charge used.
if this power is used on a non infantry unit, the strain on the caster is considerable and he also takes d6 wounds per charge used.

5-6
Warptime (1-3 charges)
Blessing that gains additional effects per charge used. Targets the casters unit, effects are cumulative.
1charge
Unit can reroll failed hits
2 charges
Unit rerolls failed to wound rolls
3 charges
Opponent rerolls successful saves on wounds caused by this unit.

If we were to redo the Tzeentch table (simplest and best way to improvee Rubricae IMNSHO, as it could give some great synergy if its thought through) I would like to see something like this.

Primaris
Dominating Will: Make a shooting attack with an enemy model within 24".

D3
1 - Doombolt: 12" S8 AP2 Assault 1 1 Charge.
2 - The Twisting Path: Caster's unit and unit with 12" may reroll misses in shooting. 1 Charge.
3 - Tzeentch's Firestorm: Maybe 24" S5 AP3 Assault 1 Large Blast 2 Charge.

What does the dominating will do exactly? Along with that, I always kind of wish if it could be tossed on that they could use divination. Of all the factions, Tzeentch, KSons, and especially Ahriman feel like they should have it. That said I also understand it's the best psyker table. Then again that could extend to criticizing champions of chaos on Tzeentch marines which really doesn't make sense.

As per KSons, I always like the idea of relentless whilst the sorcerer is alive, Slow and Purposeful when he's dead. Besides that, I think 2W fits them best. We aren't going to be opting for guns S4 and weaker aren't wounding them so it feels 2W would work. Makes them tankier to weaker shots but also makes them die to a tank shot pretty commonly. Besides that, remove the AP3 from their guns and make it more of a buff capability or something similar to sternguard. Not the best ideas and others have mentioned it but that's my personal opinion.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
If we were to redo the Tzeentch table (simplest and best way to improvee Rubricae IMNSHO, as it could give some great synergy if its thought through) I would like to see something like this.

Primaris
Dominating Will: Make a shooting attack with an enemy model within 24".

D3
1 - Doombolt: 12" S8 AP2 Assault 1 1 Charge.
2 - The Twisting Path: Caster's unit and unit with 12" may reroll misses in shooting. 1 Charge.
3 - Tzeentch's Firestorm: Maybe 24" S5 AP3 Assault 1 Large Blast 2 Charge.

So add puppet master as primaris and essentialy a twin target presence.
Just give them divination.

No, that's the point I'm making. Give them some similar stuff to the other tables, but as part of Tzeentch. They have to take it, so give them the ones that fit. Make faux-prescience not the primaris, because that's too easy to choose. But all those would be suitable for helping out a Rubricae squad.

Of course, level 2-3 Tzeentch psykers should get divination as well, but I'm thinking about the level 1 sorcerer that comes with the Rubricae particularly.

Fixed.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP.

Just out of curiosity: taking the basic csm at 13 points as a starting point... how much points will you pay for:
1) getting rid of the obnoxious Champions of Chaos rule
2) getting immunity to all morale checks, sweeping advance and, if you retreat, regroup without rolling and being able to act normally in the same turn!!
3) getting deepstrike!
4) getting combat squads!
5) getting brotherhood of psykers with two quite useful powers!!
6) getting anti-psyker grenades
7) getting preferred enemy against a faction
8) getting a -1 Ld for every psyker that targets the unit!
9) getting a 10/15 points worth power weapon in every fething model!!!

If 10 pts are OK for you to get ap3, 4++, SnP... I take it you are saying about 50 points per models for units like the one I just described. More perhaps? 60?