Rubric Marines Reconsidered

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**AnomanderRake**

JubbJubbz wrote:
Fixed.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP.

Just out of curiosity: taking the basic csm at 13 points as a starting point... how much points will you pay for:
1) getting rid of the obnoxious Champions of Chaos rule
2) getting immunity to all morale checks, sweeping advance and, if you retreat, regroup without rolling and being able to act normally in the same turn!!
3) getting deepstrike!
4) getting combat squads!
5) getting brotherhood of psykers with two quite useful powers!!
6) getting anti-psyker grenades
7) getting preferred enemy against a faction
8) getting a -1 Ld for every psyker that targets the unit!
9) getting a 10/15 points worth power weapon in every fething model!!!

If 10 pts are OK for you to get ap3, 4++, SnP... I take it you are saying about 50 points per models for units like the one I just described. More perhaps? 60?

Point taken, I was only thinking about in codex units when I said I was ok with 10 pts but I'm still ok with it given the minor changes already mentioned. I think the frightening disparity between traitor marines and loyalist ones is a different issue. CSM vs GK is an especially sore spot because I've always thought thematically that csm should be like marines but more powerful and more costly. GK got that theme though and chaos marines are left as some weird gimped version of loyalists.

As to your specific question regarding the GK cost (in the slim chance it wasn't just rhetorical) I think their current pricing probably isn't far off. Upgrades don't add to the cost linearly, (as a side note this is why I hate armory pages). The more upgrades you stack on one body the more you lose with every death. In addition, the GK codex is very different than the CSM so even though a GK and a TSon cost similar for widely differing abilities, their value to their parent codex can still be more or less similar.

**Gwaihirsbrother**

Weapon S d6, AP d6. Each unit rolls prior to selecting target and shooting. Sorcerer allows reroll of a 1. Seems Tzeentchy to me.

**da001**

AnomanderRake wrote:
JubbJubbz wrote:
Fixed.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I largely think the Tsons are ok as is. For 10 pts over a marine you get ap3, 4++, and SnP.

Just out of curiosity: taking the basic csm at 13 points as a starting point... how much points will you pay for:
1) getting rid of the obnoxious Champions of Chaos rule
2) getting immunity to all morale checks, sweeping advance and, if you retreat, regroup without rolling and being able to act normally in the same turn!!
3) getting deepstrike!
4) getting combat squads!
5) getting brotherhood of psykers with two quite useful powers!!
6) getting anti-psyker grenades
7) getting preferred enemy against a faction
8) getting a -1 Ld for every psyker that targets the unit!
9) getting a 10/15 points worth power weapon in every fething model!!!

If 10 pts are OK for you to get ap3, 4++, SnP... I take it you are saying about 50 points per models for units like the one I just described. More perhaps? 60?

Point taken, I was only thinking about in codex units when I said I was ok with 10 pts but I'm still ok with it given the minor changes already mentioned. I think the frightening disparity between traitor marines and loyalist ones is a different issue. CSM vs GK is an especially sore spot because I've always thought thematically that csm should be like marines but more powerful and more costly. GK got that theme though and chaos marines are left as some weird gimped version of loyalists.

As to your specific question regarding the GK cost (in the slim chance it wasn't just rhetorical) I think their current pricing probably isn't far off. Upgrades don't add to the cost linearly, (as a side note this is why I hate armory pages). The more upgrades you stack on one body the more you lose with every death. In addition, the GK codex is very different than the CSM so even though a GK and a TSon cost similar for widely differing abilities, their value to their parent codex can still be more or less similar.

As a sidenote to the question about GK pricing I'd like to interject that they're T4/3+/1W bodies in an edition where AP2/3 templates are the norm rather than the exception, they have staggering offensive prowess and they die pretty fast.

Well it was a rethorical question...

But it is still a good example. There is a reason Rubrick Marines are never seen: it is a basic troop unit (in a Tzeentch army) that it is far worse than, says, a GK Strike Squad, with far less options and far more expensive. And I am not saying GK strike squads are currently a particularly good unit. I think their cost is fine. It is only that TS´ cost is senseless.

The same reasons you explained (which I agree with) for only 20 pts GK are good for TS too. Adding it all, 17 pts or perhaps 18 pts per model will take TH where GK Strike squads are right know.

But I also agree it would be cool to get GK and cult CSM to be far better and expensive than basic SM / CSM, it suits the background. Instead of 18 pts TS I would take 2 wounds 23 points TS, or a similar really strong trait that explains the +10 points per model.