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 ultimentra wrote:
Hey look! Alairos wants to ignore things that are good and try argue that they aren't! It's the Vendetta all over again, color me surprised. You aren't cool for hating stuff other people like, and trying to convince them not to like it or say that it performs well.

I definitely have noticed this theme too.

Yeah, it's weird. I fell like until we get the 4th edition Guard codex back, Alairos is just going to find something wrong with every unit that's newly added and is also pretty good.

 Ailaros wrote:
Are you just getting lucky? Are your opponent's failing to displace? Are your opponent's refusing to target them?

If only there were a way to talk objectively about what the results of die rolls are, rather than relying on tiny, subjective data sets...

Yeah the fact is, you might not think they sound good on paper, but those weapons seriously perform excellently, I don't think people realize just how many models you wind up hitting on the tabletop, scatter and all. I run a single TFC and It ALWAYS performs well, literally every game. And I always stick it in a fortified ruin out of LOS because my mates know how dangerous it is, so it scatters the full 12.

You only need to land the first one even remotely near a squad, it doesn't matter how weak or how high the ap is, they soon rack the wounds up. My lone TFC has fethed everything from DW lists to tanks, its probably been my best single unit. Even if everyone gets a save and you need a high number to wound, you are underestimating the number of dice you wind up throwing with all those blasts.

Trust me, with TL, it will perform. Even if you need 6s to wound and everybody gets their saves, they will rack up the causalities, I think you are being needlessly pessimistic. I mean, I haven't even played one, but I know how well these type of things perform, I was skeptical too until I had a go with mine, now I never run a game without it, and if this bloke is sitting here and telling you it performs, and all you have is an opinion, surely you should at least consider he might have a point right? Its like arguing about the negative points of beer without ever having tasted any!

Wow. I was against them at first due to their low Str, but now I'm starting to see how good they might be. I'll give them a chance.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Wow. I was against them at first due to their low Str, but now I'm starting to see how good they might be. I'll give them a chance.

Yeah man, just give em a try. I reckon twin linking, with shred, they might sound kinda gakky but you can reroll the wounds, and people always fail their saves. Try dropping some on a few tactical squads and I will warrant you are pleasantly surprised. Plenty of 1s and 2s show up when you are forcing a guy to roll a fair sized handful of dice you know?

I used to think that and then I hit some Deathwing termies with 4 blasts from my TFC. Next thing, he is throwing 12 dice, and 4 show a 1.. suddenly my crappy artillery seems like a steal. With all of those markers, eventually peoples luck will run out and you kill expensive models despite s4 and ap 6

TuddFudders wrote:
Welcome to what Thudd Gun users have known for a long time.

Thudd guns still bring one huge advantage over a Wyvern. They're T7 Infantry units with tons of ablative wounds they can receive Orders. The Wyvern is an AV12 vehicle.

Sadly, most of the things I was having trouble with are T6-T8. I think the biggest argument against these will come from people who already have no trouble killing MEQ. Though arguably, if they can take over MEQ killing duties from units that were more expensive, then you can free up points elsewhere?

T6-T8 are the prime targets for lascannons, something IG can bring in buckets.

Yes, and with orders and psychers they are very reliable, even with regular guardsman shooting them.

the Wyvern like the TFC and the sun cannon on a wraithknight are awesome when used against targets of opportunity. While the wyverns ignore cover the plasmacutioner and others do not so enemies are faced with the dilemma of bunching a little to get in cover or spread out and eating lascannons and plasma. I have always found good targets for my blast weapons.

If your opponents spread out they will have more difficulty in bringing their firepower to bear.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, it's weird. I fell like until we get the 4th edition Guard codex back, Alairos is just going to find something wrong with every unit that's newly added and is also pretty good.

The old saying holds true. Ignore the trolls and they'll go away. There are quite a few extremely opinionated IG players on this board that are really just best left alone. Don't respond to them, don't acknowledge their existence. There are infinite of possibilities in this game based on just your list alone, not even factoring in every individual meta and game scenario / terrain format / opponent skill. There is no right answer in 40k, there are optimized statistics and crunched numbers, but never a right answer for every scenario all the time.

How do you guys feel this measures up when compared to a Basilisk, Manticore, or even Leman Russ variants. Those HS slots are very valuable and tend to fill up first for IG.

 Wingeds wrote:
How do you guys feel this measures up when compared to a Basilisk, Manticore, or even Leman Russ variants. Those HS slots are very valuable and tend to fill up first for IG.

HS slots have opened up a bit now, Leman Russ fit nicely into the HQ slot leaving some free space.

Honestly I didn't rate the Wyvern very highly, until I faced two last night.
That first shot is all important, and it quickly generates lots of hit. Shred really helps.

The Ignores cover is a bit mean. It's pretty much there just to annoy Orks (and a few Nids), as if they don't suffer from the huge amounts of Ignore Cover being handed out everywhere enough already!

Ignore cover helps against anyone whose cover save is better than their armor, like guardsmen hiding behind an ADL. Or MEQ willing to go to ground behind an ADL once they see how many wounds you put on them. Yeah, I totally overlooked this aspect too when I looked at it's bad AP value. Just because they get an armor save, doesn't mean it's as good as their cover save.

The issue with the Wyvern, in my eyes, isn't that it is a bad vehicle. It's very solid - it excels at one role, butchering infantry with poor saves, and can serve passably in plinking away at squads of Marines. Even picking between one and three Tacticals a turn (which your Wyvern is likely to dish out) isn't bad for the points you are paying. The problem is that people are assuming that it is incredible and essentially an auto-include, in many cases. That I take issue with.

Imperial Guard already has access to Ignores Cover at range through orders, and many of the options in an IG list already do very well against infantry with poor saves. The Wyvern also bounces off against almost any vehicle harmlessly, and is less than stellar against monstrous creatures. While the Wyvern is good, it's something that you certainly need to weigh carefully before putting into a list. They eat up (as noted above) Heavy Support slots, and for the cost of one of these mortar boats, a player could take a Chimera (protecting a Command Squad or providing mobility and a pair of decent weapons which have a decent threat spread,) a Sentinel with your choice of weapon (capable of doing work against high save infantry or threatening vehicles, depending on your choice,) or an additional infantry squad with an Autocannon (able to hold objectives, plink away at infantry, and threaten light armor.) And that's just for one Wyvern - the more you add, of course, the better is gets at killing infantry, but the more it competes with as well. Two Wyverns are more expensive than a Basilisk, which can handle armor and is often stronger against infantry, or some Leman Russ variants.

Really, it comes down to deciding if your list benefits most from more infantry killing, or a more versatile choice, capable of handling armor or monstrous creatures stronger than the Wyvern can.

Would a squadron of 3 be overkill? My DW needs some horde killing power. The Wyvern is looking like a nice option.

Haven't picked up the new codex yet, anyone mind shouting out how many points that would be?

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Would a squadron of 3 be overkill? My DW needs some horde killing power. The Wyvern is looking like a nice option.

Haven't picked up the new codex yet, anyone mind shouting out how many points that would be?

3x Wyverns: Under 200

I think the raw offensive power of the wyvern is secondary to it's ability to hit hidden backfield units.

While great at mowing through gaunts or boys, it's main job, IMO, is taking out objective campers. In that role, while it uses a valueable HS slot, it takes away the need for a backfield threat like Flamer PCS in valkyrie.

We also have less outflanking in this book. Maybe I just see more scouts/cultists/rangers/kroot hiding on objectives, but a unit that murderizes units like that is useful to me.