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I know they have "Marks" for Chaos Space Marines, But I really feel like they should have chapter tactics for armies such as Alpha Legion. Am I the only one?

Join the horde, there are many of us.

Just about every CSM player feels this way

I'm not a CSM (yet) and I agree with it! I'd forsake the Emperor for a chance to have CSM legion tactics

Every CSM player and even loyalist players think they should get them. IF we were to get something like that we'd probably have to pay some ridiculous price in cash for the book/data slate and a large hunk of points for them, which would mean they would barely get used.

Ever since Vanilla Marines got updated, everyone wants their army to have some variation of Chapter Tactics. Of all the armies out there, Chaos Space Marines are the only ones who actually deserve to have them.

I want re-rolls for something.

+5 points, re-rolls for Soul Blaze.

 l0k1 wrote:
Every CSM player and even loyalist players think they should get them. IF we were to get something like that we'd probably have to pay some ridiculous price in cash for the book/data slate and a large hunk of points for them, which would mean they would barely get used.

I can see it now

Dataslate:Legions of Chaos
Price 49.99
Pages 1

If you take any legion upgrade it costs +15 PTs per model and must be taken on all models also all that can must take VoTLW

Also
Heldrakes become 0-1
For Balance

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I want re-rolls for something.

+5 points, re-rolls for Soul Blaze.

Okay, I almost inhaled a popcorn laughing at this.

Join the club.

2x210 wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
Every CSM player and even loyalist players think they should get them. IF we were to get something like that we'd probably have to pay some ridiculous price in cash for the book/data slate and a large hunk of points for them, which would mean they would barely get used.

I can see it now

Dataslate:Legions of Chaos
Price 49.99
Pages 1

If you take any legion upgrade it costs +15 PTs per model and must be taken on all models also all that can must take VoTLW

Also
Heldrakes become 0-1
For Balance

The funny thing about that is there were rumors going around about a supplement coming out that as long as you paid for votlw you could pay extra points per unit to gain a special rule.......It makes me cry.

Legion tactics, not Chapter tactics. But yeah.

ahhh legion tactics.... if it was properly written eg C:SM and not black legion all id need is somone to supple the appropriate TAKE MY MONEY meme....

There definitely needs to be Legion Tactics for csm. They could easily do it with 2 supplements. One for legions & one for cults like khornate, slaneshii, etc. That way csm would be as there supposed to be. Could it be over powered? Yes. Would it? Only GWs management would know for sure.

I think as a community we should just agree to use the HH legion traits, none feel stupidly strong but do ad something CSM didn't flavour.

I'd sooner expect them to advance the story before they give chaos legion tactics. They view chaos as a mishmash of renegades, traitors and humans. As some people liked to point out in the past threads for chaos getting such tactics, the legions are dead and they're nothing more than a rabble of maniacs. Til you get some writers that believe differently, its not going to change. They even got rid of chaos undivided for pantheon's sake.

I don't get why everyone thinks CSM/Orks/Eldar/Tau/Nids should get different traits. Chapter Tactics are for SM, you want 'em? You play SM.
'Omg CSMs should get Riptides, they're so good'
You want Riptides, you play Tau. You want Chapter Tactics, you play SM. You get Cult Troops and Marks, they basically give you what you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:
There definitely needs to be Legion Tactics for csm. They could easily do it with 2 supplements. One for legions & one for cults like khornate, slaneshii, etc. That way csm would be as there supposed to be. Could it be over powered? Yes. Would it? Only GWs management would know for sure.

Cults have their own troops and marks, what more do you want?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I don't get why everyone thinks CSM/Orks/Eldar/Tau/Nids should get different traits. Chapter Tactics are for SM, you want 'em? You play SM.
'Omg CSMs should get Riptides, they're so good'
You want Riptides, you play Tau. You want Chapter Tactics, you play SM. You get Cult Troops and Marks, they basically give you what you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:
There definitely needs to be Legion Tactics for csm. They could easily do it with 2 supplements. One for legions & one for cults like khornate, slaneshii, etc. That way csm would be as there supposed to be. Could it be over powered? Yes. Would it? Only GWs management would know for sure.

Cults have their own troops and marks, what more do you want?

You do know that CSM are in fact, Space Marines right? You know that they were divided up into different legions that fought in different ways? Marks are over costed and generic
Legion tactics would add:
Help make CSM competative again.
Add fluff and make if feel like you're playing an actual traitor legion
Add variety to builds and army lists.

Cut out your nerd rage and see what's actually being said. This has nothing to do with getting the best toys like riptides.

@BrotherOfBone

I think you don't know the difference between Cult troops & Legion troops. Once your in a cult, you're no longer really a member of your Legion. An Iron Warrior who's now a Khorne Berserker isn't gonna be thinking about siegecraft, only BLOOD!

Legion tactics & Cult Marks would not stack. In many cases they wouldn't make much sense. In most cases it would be too cheesey OP. The Legion tactics are more for flavor than gaming advantage.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I don't get why everyone thinks CSM/Orks/Eldar/Tau/Nids should get different traits. Chapter Tactics are for SM, you want 'em? You play SM.
'Omg CSMs should get Riptides, they're so good'
You want Riptides, you play Tau. You want Chapter Tactics, you play SM. You get Cult Troops and Marks, they basically give you what you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:
There definitely needs to be Legion Tactics for csm. They could easily do it with 2 supplements. One for legions & one for cults like khornate, slaneshii, etc. That way csm would be as there supposed to be. Could it be over powered? Yes. Would it? Only GWs management would know for sure.

Cults have their own troops and marks, what more do you want?

Yes, but here's the problem
- Those Marks don't come for free, unlike SM, they're on a per-model basis, which means its ludicrously expensive to run an even moderately fluffy list with marks on every single unit.
- Second, there are only 4 actual cult troops, of which 2 (berserkers/thousand sons) are nigh-on impossible to use....what about Red Corsairs/Alpha Legion/Word Bearers/Night Lords/Iron Warriors? Didnt FW give SM another ton of free chapter tactics for sub-Legions?
- Third, part of our "Chapter Tactics" involve buying expensive Icons that can be sniped, 3 out of the 5 icons are pointless and one of the usefull icons can only be used on Noise Marines at 30pts. Compared to the free goodies SM get and the fact that we have to pay even further tax to be fearless, it's easy to see why people are enraged. What with CSM supposedly being the true Nemesis of the Imperium, the lack of synergy, flexibility in rules and direction (Chapter Tactics) and exhorbitant costs makes this the most uneven hero/villain setup Ive ever heard of.
- Forth...Bearing all the above in mind, it pretty much means making a fluffy army that is semi competitive very difficult - Such as Mark of Nurgle Oblits in pure Slaanesh lists, because Slaanesh is a pointless upgrade for an Oblit etc...

So yeah it might seem that chaos has tons of variety, but the Codex is written in such a way that a large portions of it will be ignored in the face of viable builds....therefor the lack of variation in many CSM lists. "Legion" tactics or whatever you want to call it could be a way of encouraging different builds and different ways to field our army.

What I find annoying is that out of the 18 legions (9 Imperial / 9 turned to chaos), in 40K the Imperials span 4 codices, and the ones that share a codex, along with the sub factions all gained chapter tactics. Chaos on the other hand have to make do with 1 codex with lackluster "tactics" which loosely represent 4 of the pre-heresy legions who turned.....what about the other 5? Is it really so ridiculous for CSM players to want some rules applicable to the remnants of the other Legions that turned?

Okay. Any undivided Legions are represented with having no marks.
Black Legion - Undivided, have everything
Alpha Legion - Undivided
Night Legion - Undivided, have raptors etc.
Iron Warriors - Undivided, have vindis and oblits
Word Bearers - Undivided, have demon allies, DAs
World Eaters - Khorne
Death Guard - Nurgle
Emperor's Children - Slaanesh
Thousand Sons - Tzeentch

You have the tools to kit yourself out (fluffily) for 8 out of those 9 Chaos Legions.

I perfectly understand your rage at GW for not giving you flexibility and forcing you into a monobuild, but that monobuild is top-teir. SMs have 3 or 4 top-teir lists, everything else is mid/low teir, which is where they meet their mid-teir match with CSMs.

Also Legions aren't even a cohesive fighting force any more. Most legionaries have split into their own warbands, so it's hard to understand why they would have their own tactics when they're so splintered and fragmented.

As a Black Templar player I feel your hatred at the SM codex. We had our own army book 6 months ago, now we are basically a footnote. We have 2 pages of fluff and a crappy chapter tactic that isn't worth it.

Simply put, CSMs have the same amount of add-ons as C:SM. Crimson Slaughter could easily be used to represent WB, and BL could represent anything, really.

I know I seem like an ass but what would you say if I complained that we don't have any OP flyers and we wanted Heldrakes? Or Maulerfiends because Dreadnoughts suck ass?

Also Standard Bearers are hard to get at if you put them at the back of the squad, the only games that bring mass ordnance are tourneys and even then.. Meh.

In the end, it'll always be because Space Marines are the daddy's boy of GW, and CSMs are the unruly son who skipped school and works at McDonalds. They love him deep down, but SMs will always get the most attention unfortunately.

Then there's Tau, but who knows what the feth is going on with those guys.

My issue here is that I want to build CSM but not the demonic psychopaths of Khorne, Nurgle, etc. but something more *ehem* down to earth like Alpha Legion. Even marks seem more complicated than legion tactics being that only certain units and characters receive marks, and some are upgrades. As opposed to legion tactics which affect all primary detachment.

I do run SM, Clan Raukaan to be exact in fact I'm one of the morons who paid for the limited edition simply because, well it looked amazing and I couldn't be happier with it. I wouldn't mind shelling out more $$ for a CSM supplement for a traitor legion. To some extent I have the mind set of; "Hey, you want to play and use rules that aren't in the main rule book and a majority of others don't use? Well you have to pay. PS it makes you look cool and like a snobby jerk!". :p

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Okay. Any undivided Legions are represented with having no marks.
Black Legion - Undivided, have everything
Alpha Legion - Undivided
Night Legion - Undivided, have raptors etc.
Iron Warriors - Undivided, have vindis and oblits
Word Bearers - Undivided, have demon allies, DAs
World Eaters - Khorne
Death Guard - Nurgle
Emperor's Children - Slaanesh
Thousand Sons - Tzeentch

You have the tools to kit yourself out (fluffily) for 8 out of those 9 Chaos Legions.

I perfectly understand your rage at GW for not giving you flexibility and forcing you into a monobuild, but that monobuild is top-teir. SMs have 3 or 4 top-teir lists, everything else is mid/low teir, which is where they meet their mid-teir match with CSMs.
Thats not the point. Not all Chaos players are WAAC-types and not all of us want to invest in 3 flying steel dragons just for the sake of competing against Riptide spam. I for one have not and will not buy a heldrake because it's terrible looking model and it's not what I want from my Chaos army. I dont give a rats ass if it fries a squad of MEQ per turn, thats not what got me into this hobby. I want a functioning army with well thought-out rules, synergy and options that allow me to field it in a variety of ways without auto-losing - See Codex Daemons for an example of the the way I wish the CSM codex were written.

Also Legions aren't even a cohesive fighting force any more. Most legionaries have split into their own warbands, so it's hard to understand why they would have their own tactics when they're so splintered and fragmented.
Yet it's quite plausible that those fragments would still follow the doctrines from before:
i.e The World Eaters always fought in a savage manner and had some sort of "blood lust" even before they fell to Chaos, which turned into "blood for the blood god etc."
Thousand sons were banished for their sorcery and after the fall to Chaos expanded on that, so again there's a link between their "niche" from pre-to post heresy.
Emperor's Children were always about perfection, sensation and extacy...all enhanced when they fell to Slaanesh.
All of these are fragmented and scattered, there's hardly any Thousand Sons left yet their approach to war didnt make a complete 180....why would the small number of Night Lords fight any differently from before when they fell to Chaos?

As a Black Templar player I feel your hatred at the SM codex. We had our own army book 6 months ago, now we are basically a footnote. We have 2 pages of fluff and a crappy chapter tactic that isn't worth it.
Exactly. The most annoying part for me is that it's impossible to kit out any of our Walkers / Heavy Support vehicles with Marks, ie no Sonic Weaponry on Oblits / Pres / Helbruts etc....if they want to bring Marks of Chaos into the equation why not give it an army-wide influence?

Simply put, CSMs have the same amount of add-ons as C:SM. Crimson Slaughter could easily be used to represent WB, and BL could represent anything, really.
Not necessarily....There's nothing in either supplement that would represent ie. Siege Warfare of Iron Warriors, nothing that unlocks additional HS slots apart from allying in a single additional unit of Oblits. In order to run Alpha Legion we would have to field Ahriman or Huron or hope for the Warlord Trait that gives infiltrate? Night Lords would potentially make use of more Jump Infantry than usual....how do we unlock Raptors / Warp Talons as troops?

I know I seem like an ass but what would you say if I complained that we don't have any OP flyers and we wanted Heldrakes? Or Maulerfiends because Dreadnoughts suck ass?
Thats exactly the point....ask any CSM player whether they wanted a Heldrake in the new Codex and they would say no. The only reason people field them is because they are that good compared to most of the rest of our army being saturated with different units who fill similar roles or have rules that are'nt thought through. Helldrakes don't make CSM at all more "fluffy", and personally I wish it never existed if it could be traded for better internal balance.

Also Standard Bearers are hard to get at if you put them at the back of the squad, the only games that bring mass ordnance are tourneys and even then.. Meh.
Unless you have snipers, or play against AM with their Precision Shot orders. SM players get ATSKNF for free, we pay 30pts for it and it can be taken away in one shot.

In the end, it'll always be because Space Marines are the daddy's boy of GW, and CSMs are the unruly son who skipped school and works at McDonalds. They love him deep down, but SMs will always get the most attention unfortunately.

Then there's Tau, but who knows what the feth is going on with those guys.

I'd be fine with a table of choices for your warlord. Just a choice though no cost. It's an army wide boost that affects VotLW models

World Eaters: reroll runs and charges
Word Bearers: stubborn
1k sons: reroll psychic tests
Black Legion: already done
Night Lords: stealth
Death Guard: 6+ FNP
EChildren: who knows. They're all Slaanesh now anyway
Alpha: scout

Seriously though, it's pointless. If they stayed legion use the FW stuff. Most haven't though, they've gone cult, which we already have. All you're asking for is GW to kill the HH line before it's done. Not gonna happen.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I don't get why everyone thinks CSM/Orks/Eldar/Tau/Nids should get different traits. Chapter Tactics are for SM, you want 'em? You play SM.
'Omg CSMs should get Riptides, they're so good'
You want Riptides, you play Tau. You want Chapter Tactics, you play SM. You get Cult Troops and Marks, they basically give you what you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:
There definitely needs to be Legion Tactics for csm. They could easily do it with 2 supplements. One for legions & one for cults like khornate, slaneshii, etc. That way csm would be as there supposed to be. Could it be over powered? Yes. Would it? Only GWs management would know for sure.

Cults have their own troops and marks, what more do you want?

People want it because, honestly, many factions deserve tactics more than SM. IG and CSM are certainly more varied in tactics than marines whilst orks and Eldar have iconic tactical armies. Tau could have had some more units to swap up deployment and nids could have gained something similar as I can't really think of many iconic tactics. Also no, I'd rather them take out the Heldrake. It's stupid and broken. I'd rather have a transport air unit that isn't 12 12 10 and reasonably costed. Also cult troops and marks don't give anything because you have to pay for it and cults, well half of them are horrid. Along with that, up to 4th edition, legions were still the thing. Along with that, the books released are HH and even the ones that aren't often theme the warbands after very specific legions (Iron Warrior books are an example). People still pine for it. Most don't really want some special unit for everyone. Yeah, A lot of people would probably like a few HQs since only one warband and only five legions are represented but there are several legions that have no real way to be fielded. On top of that, marks and the sorts aren't that great since as soon as you pay for them, you cost the same or more than a Tactical Marine despite being basically inferior to them in every way. It doesn't need to be complicated, just some minor rules to give some rules to give a feel for the factions.

 SaintTom wrote:
I'd sooner expect them to advance the story before they give chaos legion tactics. They view chaos as a mishmash of renegades, traitors and humans. As some people liked to point out in the past threads for chaos getting such tactics, the legions are dead and they're nothing more than a rabble of maniacs. Til you get some writers that believe differently, its not going to change. They even got rid of chaos undivided for pantheon's sake.

Only in the main codex, everyone else down to Supplements and Black Library write otherwise, even the Crimson Slaughter book calls the others Legions.

As I said before, Kelly's changes should be viewed just as Matt Wards every space marine wants to be an Ultramarine, ignored.

There are legions, there are cohesive forces, the only warband legions are Night Lords, World Eaters, and Emperors Children.

And even then, when Angron got mad and wanted to kill things, he rounded up 50,000 World eaters, I'd like to remind you that chapters are 1000 marines!

I'm on board for CSM Legion tactics, as well as proper supplements too.

CSM has been getting "Chapter Tactics" through their supplements.

Black Legion gets a forced upgrade on all their VoTL choices and still paying for it.

Crimson Slaughter gets Fear.

...it's a start.

 WarOne wrote:
CSM has been getting "Chapter Tactics" through their supplements.

Black Legion gets a forced upgrade on all their VoTL choices and still paying for it.

Crimson Slaughter gets Fear.

...it's a start.

SM still have their FREE awesome abilities AND have two supplements.

If they actually ever do bring out their own version of Chapter Tactics for CSM I hope they don't actually call it "Legion Tactics" and have something more suitable like "Legacy of Treachery" instead.

So instead of something like Ultramarines Chapter Tactics you would have Legacy of the Black Legion and so forth.

But given GW's horrific treatment of CSM ruleswise and their really slapdash attempts at cash-grabs rather than quality writing I can't forsee any attempt that would end up good.