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I like the idea of chapter tactics. They give a flavor that is both fluffy and gives you options. I love the way the HH legions actually feel like legions with own style and tactics. Technically, they can have similar builds but in the end they still have a distinct flavor.

Power of the Warp Spirit.

Make my Land Raiders functional. No? Then piss off with your Supplements and re-writes GW.

So frustrated seeing CS and BL come out and all these garbage rules, which by all rights to us Chaos Players, should simply be added rule sets to the existing CSM Dex. They FINALLY make Possessed functional, FUNCTIONAL. Not even "Good" just "Functional" and they put it into a Supplement. No thanks. I'd rather drink Draino than sink another $60 into a sub par Graphic Novel of re used and hashed lore, filled with existing pictures.

To be honest I think all army books should have some form of chapter tactics, not every Eldar Craftworld fights the same way so why don't they have unique rules to represent this? It just makes sense to have a running theme through the codices so people have some sort of familiarity between codicies.

CSM are the most neglected of all the armies imho, it's quite clear to everyone that reads the fluff that there should still be some type of warband definition but it's left in the ether to be dealt with by supplements which aren't great.

My friend uses HH every time he fields his Night Lords just because he feels 40k doesn't do them justice at the moment which I kinda agree with

 l0k1 wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
CSM has been getting "Chapter Tactics" through their supplements.

Black Legion gets a forced upgrade on all their VoTL choices and still paying for it.

Crimson Slaughter gets Fear.

...it's a start.

SM still have their FREE awesome abilities AND have two supplements.

Hot diggety! Space Marines get two supplements? I'll call the GW police!
CSMs also have two supplements which are actually quite good and bring a lot to the army, for example making possessed sort of worth taking and giving Dark Apostles awesome melee weapons.
And yes SMs have free abilities but your troops cost less, not by enough I will admit but it's not like we're costed the same but still get chapter tactics and the lark. Imagine how DA feel. They got Stubborn! IMO stubborn sucks, and they also don't get Stalkers/Hunters or Centurions, 3 of the most awesome units in the book. They got over costed terminators and mediocre bikes with no gravguns.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
CSM has been getting "Chapter Tactics" through their supplements.

Black Legion gets a forced upgrade on all their VoTL choices and still paying for it.

Crimson Slaughter gets Fear.

...it's a start.

SM still have their FREE awesome abilities AND have two supplements.

Hot diggety! Space Marines get two supplements? I'll call the GW police!
CSMs also have two supplements which are actually quite good and bring a lot to the army, for example making possessed sort of worth taking and giving Dark Apostles awesome melee weapons.
And yes SMs have free abilities but your troops cost less, not by enough I will admit but it's not like we're costed the same but still get chapter tactics and the lark. Imagine how DA feel. They got Stubborn! IMO stubborn sucks, and they also don't get Stalkers/Hunters or Centurions, 3 of the most awesome units in the book. They got over costed terminators and mediocre bikes with no gravguns.

The Dark Apostle Weapon is actually pretty poor, the DA already pays for a power maul in his statline, so having to pay 30 points for Dark Covenant Crozius is laughable.

Black Legion aren't good at all, most people take them with full cultists, avoid taking CSM at all, and maybe yank one or two artefacts, while Crimson Slaughter is a bit better, it's still mostly just heading in a better direction.

And yes DA is also the poster child for 'Proto-Alpha rules for SM'.

The black legion book is garbage and if you played csm you'd know that, it forces votlw on you and makes your terminators more expensive.

And the second supplement is there to sell possesed kits nothing more and it's a slap in the face.

You should not need to buy supplements to make your army feel like a legion force the main book should do that instead we just got generic and flavourless.

My IW don't have anything that makes them IW besides the paintjob.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Join the horde, there are many of us.

We are Legion.

It was tried with 3.5rd edition, but the legions were horribly imbalanced. Some were invincible, some were pants-on-head slowed.

 Wilytank wrote:
Ever since Vanilla Marines got updated, everyone wants their army to have some variation of Chapter Tactics. Of all the armies out there, Chaos Space Marines are the only ones who actually deserve to have them.

Honestly I think it only makes sense for most of the armies to have these sorts of things. Like...would it have really hurt guard to have Doctrines along these lines?

I mean, the obvious elephant in the room is the way the non-SM factions have to pay extra for it all. I much prefer the method employed by the SM codex -- aka "You have some special rule, pick which and they are all vaguely equal value (allegedly)."

I see Marks and Vetrans of the Long War as equating to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. But I think the net cost on them is too high, or the base cost on the models too high. One of the two, I'm not totally sure which. Ultimately a Chaos marine with mark and Vetrans should be the same as a Tactical Marine, adjusted for gear of course.

Jefffar wrote:
I see Marks and Vetrans of the Long War as equating to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. But I think the net cost on them is too high, or the base cost on the models too high. One of the two, I'm not totally sure which. Ultimately a Chaos marine with mark and Vetrans should be the same as a Tactical Marine, adjusted for gear of course.

So for +1 Ld and +1 Atk over an SM is the same? Aha, noooooo thank you.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I see Marks and Vetrans of the Long War as equating to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. But I think the net cost on them is too high, or the base cost on the models too high. One of the two, I'm not totally sure which. Ultimately a Chaos marine with mark and Vetrans should be the same as a Tactical Marine, adjusted for gear of course.

So for +1 Ld and +1 Atk over an SM is the same? Aha, noooooo thank you.

Lets see..

SM don't care about LD due to ATSKNF, and their sarge doesn't kill himself in challenges so he'll survive to grant them the better LD if you take his upgrade.

Space Wolf Grey Hunters are the exact cost as a CSM troop, but come with ATSKNF and two special 'chapter tactics' one of which is counter-attack, but come with things like banner of the wolf.

Adding a mark still makes them far more cost ineffective compared to GH, or even baseline SM.

They are not the same, by any chance.

We are Legion.

It was tried with 3.5rd edition, but the legions were horribly imbalanced. Some were invincible, some were pants-on-head slowed.

Yes, and as a result everything should be removed yes? Or whats the point, it was imbalanced, they shouldn't have gutted it in three different ways.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I see Marks and Vetrans of the Long War as equating to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. But I think the net cost on them is too high, or the base cost on the models too high. One of the two, I'm not totally sure which. Ultimately a Chaos marine with mark and Vetrans should be the same as a Tactical Marine, adjusted for gear of course.

So for +1 Ld and +1 Atk over an SM is the same? Aha, noooooo thank you.

Lets see..

SM don't care about LD due to ATSKNF, and their sarge doesn't kill himself in challenges so he'll survive to grant them the better LD if you take his upgrade.

Space Wolf Grey Hunters are the exact cost as a CSM troop, but come with ATSKNF and two special 'chapter tactics' one of which is counter-attack, but come with things like banner of the wolf.

Adding a mark still makes them far more cost ineffective compared to GH, or even baseline SM.

They are not the same, by any chance.

We are Legion.

It was tried with 3.5rd edition, but the legions were horribly imbalanced. Some were invincible, some were pants-on-head slowed.

Yes, and as a result everything should be removed yes? Or whats the point, it was imbalanced, they shouldn't have gutted it in three different ways.

Let's not compare Grey Hunters because it's a fact that they're OP, everyone knows it. Plus I'd take the +1 Atk over Crusader and Rending in challenges any day... Also, BT suffer the same curse as CSM; we have to accept challenges.

Let's not compare Grey Hunters because it's a fact that they're OP, everyone knows it. Plus I'd take the +1 Atk over Crusader and Rending in challenges any day... Also, BT suffer the same curse as CSM; we have to accept challenges.

Yes, but you are at least represented are you not? With special units that you can get +1 Atk with crusader and rending in challenges as well, not to mention you still benefit from baseline SM costs.

At the very least you don't have people saying 'Well this codex was imbalanced with Legions, thus it shouldn't exist ever, and this one codex writer says all the things are warbands so thus you should be glad you got the heldrake you never asked for.'

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let's not compare Grey Hunters because it's a fact that they're OP, everyone knows it. Plus I'd take the +1 Atk over Crusader and Rending in challenges any day... Also, BT suffer the same curse as CSM; we have to accept challenges.

Yes, but you are at least represented are you not? With special units that you can get +1 Atk with crusader and rending in challenges as well, not to mention you still benefit from baseline SM costs.

At the very least you don't have people saying 'Well this codex was imbalanced with Legions, thus it shouldn't exist ever, and this one codex writer says all the things are warbands so thus you should be glad you got the heldrake you never asked for.'

+1 atk with Crusader? 2D6 for running and pick the highest...
I displayed earlier that all the Legions are represented with different units that you can take, or different marks/cult troops/whatever.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let's not compare Grey Hunters because it's a fact that they're OP, everyone knows it. Plus I'd take the +1 Atk over Crusader and Rending in challenges any day... Also, BT suffer the same curse as CSM; we have to accept challenges.

Yes, but you are at least represented are you not? With special units that you can get +1 Atk with crusader and rending in challenges as well, not to mention you still benefit from baseline SM costs.

At the very least you don't have people saying 'Well this codex was imbalanced with Legions, thus it shouldn't exist ever, and this one codex writer says all the things are warbands so thus you should be glad you got the heldrake you never asked for.'

+1 atk with Crusader? 2D6 for running and pick the highest...
I displayed earlier that all the Legions are represented with different units that you can take, or different marks/cult troops/whatever.

Then why complain about your own Chapter Tactics, you could still represent Black Templar with the standard Space Marine codex can you not?

And no, your little list earlier didn't display it at all.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Let's not compare Grey Hunters because it's a fact that they're OP, everyone knows it. Plus I'd take the +1 Atk over Crusader and Rending in challenges any day... Also, BT suffer the same curse as CSM; we have to accept challenges.

Yes, but you are at least represented are you not? With special units that you can get +1 Atk with crusader and rending in challenges as well, not to mention you still benefit from baseline SM costs.

At the very least you don't have people saying 'Well this codex was imbalanced with Legions, thus it shouldn't exist ever, and this one codex writer says all the things are warbands so thus you should be glad you got the heldrake you never asked for.'

+1 atk with Crusader? 2D6 for running and pick the highest...
I displayed earlier that all the Legions are represented with different units that you can take, or different marks/cult troops/whatever.

Then why complain about your own Chapter Tactics, you could still represent Black Templar with the standard Space Marine codex can you not?

And no, your little list earlier didn't display it at all.

In what way didn't it? You have all the generic units/marks in the CSM codex to represent any of the legions.

Except IW,AL,NL dont use marks they do not worship the chaos gods so it makes no sense to use them.

The system in no way represents non chaos worshipping legions.

plesae dont tell me the tzeentch mark represents 1k sons.... oh and a soul blaze banner... steaming pile of NOT what they are...

hobojebus wrote:
Except IW,AL,NL dont use marks they do not worship the chaos gods so it makes no sense to use them.

The system in no way represents non chaos worshipping legions.

Admittedly there's nothing for AL, but IW get Vindis, Oblits and whatever else. NL get Warp Talons and Raptors

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Except IW,AL,NL dont use marks they do not worship the chaos gods so it makes no sense to use them.

The system in no way represents non chaos worshipping legions.

Admittedly there's nothing for AL, but IW get Vindis, Oblits and whatever else. NL get Warp Talons and Raptors

Which...Doesn't amount to anything, as those are generic units.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Except IW,AL,NL dont use marks they do not worship the chaos gods so it makes no sense to use them.

The system in no way represents non chaos worshipping legions.

Admittedly there's nothing for AL, but IW get Vindis, Oblits and whatever else. NL get Warp Talons and Raptors

Vindicators "represent" Iron Warriors? >_> Warp Talons and Raptors?

This logic is equivalent to Games Workshop removing White Scars chapter tactics, removing the ability to take bikes as troops, and saying "What? You still have bikes in the FA slot, there's your White Scars!"

"Imperial Fist chapter tactics? Bah, you don't need those. Tech-Marines give you bolster defenses, and you have TFC's! There's your Imperial Fists!"

"You guys didn't need those Raven Guard chapter tactics. Just use the assault marines in your fast attack slot!"

"Black Templars don't need their own codex, they don't need chapter tactics either. Just take a whole bunch of tactical squads and scout squads, give them power weapons and boom! Black Templars!"

Come on, man.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Except IW,AL,NL dont use marks they do not worship the chaos gods so it makes no sense to use them.

The system in no way represents non chaos worshipping legions.

Admittedly there's nothing for AL, but IW get Vindis, Oblits and whatever else. NL get Warp Talons and Raptors

Vindicators "represent" Iron Warriors? >_> Warp Talons and Raptors?

This logic is equivalent to Games Workshop removing White Scars chapter tactics, removing the ability to take bikes as troops, and saying "What? You still have bikes in the FA slot, there's your White Scars!"

"Imperial Fist chapter tactics? Bah, you don't need those. Tech-Marines give you bolster defenses, and you have TFC's! There's your Imperial Fists!"

"You guys didn't need those Raven Guard chapter tactics. Just use the assault marines in your fast attack slot!"

"Black Templars don't need their own codex, they don't need chapter tactics either. Just take a whole bunch of tactical squads and scout squads, give them power weapons and boom! Black Templars!"

Come on, man.

I can understand but you also have to understand that the tools to represent the Legions are within the codex.

And the point is that the tools to represent different chapters are in the C: SM codex as well, but they get chapter tactics anyway.

And the reason why they do is because the writers realize that merely "having bikes" is not enough to really give the feel of playing a White Scars army, nor is merely running a tactical/scout squad foot-list going to accurately represent playing Black Templars.

The tools given in the Chaos Space Marine codex are just as insufficient for representing the legions as merely having certain units the SM codex is for representing the various chapters. Obliterators and Vindicators doesn't make an Iron Warriros army anymore than having TFC's and Tech-Marines makes an Imperial Fist army.

Really, the onus is on you here. Why do you think Space Marines should get chapter tactics in addition to everything else they already have, but Chaos should not get an equivalent? The Marks are garbage compared to chapter tactics, from both a mechanical and fluff perspective. Free, fluffy special rules that affect your entire army > a single upgrade like "+1 T" that you have to pay for on every model separately.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And the point is that the tools to represent different chapters are in the C: SM codex as well, but they get chapter tactics anyway.

And the reason why they do is because the writers realize that merely "having bikes" is not enough to really give the feel of playing a White Scars army, nor is merely running a tactical/scout squad foot-list going to accurately represent playing Black Templars.

The tools given in the Chaos Space Marine codex are just as insufficient for representing the legions as merely having certain units the SM codex is for representing the various chapters. Obliterators and Vindicators doesn't make an Iron Warriros army anymore than having TFC's and Tech-Marines makes an Imperial Fist army.

Really, the onus is on you here. Why do you think Space Marines should get chapter tactics in addition to everything else they already have, but Chaos should not get an equivalent? The Marks are garbage compared to chapter tactics, from both a mechanical and fluff perspective. Free, fluffy special rules that affect your entire army > a single upgrade like "+1 T" that you have to pay for on every model separately.

It's what SM players did in 5th, I don't see what the problem is with CSM players doing it in 6th.
I totally understand your frustration but I gotta say, tough luck duck.

A) "We had to deal with it in 5E, so suck it up!" is a horrific argument.

B) It's not true anyways. 5E SM had chapter tactic, they were just distributed from HQ's rather than being taken regardless of your HQ. The abilities were even called "chapter tactics" for Christ's sake, and they affected your entire army, for free. Again, way better than the marks.

I'm glad you've finally admitted that GW fethed CSM over and they deserved to have their own Chapter Tactics equivalent, though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A) "We had to deal with it in 5E, so suck it up!" is a horrific argument.

B) It's not true anyways. 5E SM had chapter tactic, they were just distributed from HQ's rather than being taken regardless of your HQ. The abilities were even called "chapter tactics" for Christ's sake, and they affected your entire army, for free. Again, way better than the marks.

I'm glad you've finally admitted that GW fethed CSM over and they deserved to have their own Chapter Tactics equivalent, though.

I never said that they didn't my argument was that you have the tools to represent all the Legions if you want to.

And that assertion is wrong. Chaos Marines don't have the tools to represent the Legions, anymore then having a butter-knife would be considered "having the tools" to fix a flat-tire. The marks are insufficient to represent the Legions, having a handful of Chaos-exclusive units is insufficient to represent the Legions. So no, we don't have the tools to represent the legions.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A) "We had to deal with it in 5E, so suck it up!" is a horrific argument.

B) It's not true anyways. 5E SM had chapter tactic, they were just distributed from HQ's rather than being taken regardless of your HQ. The abilities were even called "chapter tactics" for Christ's sake, and they affected your entire army, for free. Again, way better than the marks.

I'm glad you've finally admitted that GW fethed CSM over and they deserved to have their own Chapter Tactics equivalent, though.

I never said that they didn't my argument was that you have the tools to represent all the Legions if you want to.

They do not.

Keep trying to support a failed point though.

I honestly wish that the community was more open to the idea of home grown rules. If a group of people got together and put together a supplement. Play tested. Took community feedback. And then posted it up as a off I would be thrilled. (Done well that is) however I realize that even outside of the GW stops this wouldn't fly. Let alone the retaliation from GW, even if it.was free for downloadm

shauni55 wrote:
I honestly wish that the community was more open to the idea of home grown rules. If a group of people got together and put together a supplement. Play tested. Took community feedback. And then posted it up as a off I would be thrilled. (Done well that is) however I realize that even outside of the GW stops this wouldn't fly. Let alone the retaliation from GW, even if it.was free for downloadm

GW actually encourage fan-made content. People are also fine with it, too, as long as you ask before and let them read it I'm sure many people would be cool with it, and maybe welcome it.