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I wonder if this is good now. It costs 15 points, the squad is 10 points less with no krak grenades. I never made use of krak grenades anyway. So for my playstyle this effectively means 5 points for carapace armour for the squad?

Sounds quite good unless I am missing something!

I find spending any amounts of points on a 4+ AS a waste. But 15 points for Krak and Carapace seems fair.

Eventually I found the odd chance I would use the 4+ I would end up failing anyway so I won't be using it. Doesn't mean to say its not good.

I pretty much field all my Veteran squads with Carapace now. (Which is all my infantry, as I play Vostroyans and they all have the carapace armor modeled on them). They're only 5 points more expensive now as a result also.

For example, a 10 man veteran squad with no Voxcaster (Typically a superfluous upgrade for a Chimera squad) armed with 3x Meltaguns and Carapace armor in the old codex was 130 points, with the Chimera transport making them 185.

Now, the same squad, kitted exactly the same, costs just 105 points, with the Chimera transport making them 170.

So saving 15 points per squad in total, with the transport included, is not a bad deal at all considering the only change in effectiveness is that you can't fire all three weapons out of the top hatch of the chimera any longer. I'm willing to forgo one meltagun shot from the back hatch to save 15 points for the squad.

Just my .02 cents. All my squads get Carapace armor now. It's fluffy for the army I play, and even though it might not be that much more effective, I still enjoy actually getting a save vs. small arms fire now.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

It is worth it for the krak alone (and the positive changes it got in 6th). 4+ armor is an absolute steal now.

I liked carapace armor before, and even made a list type dependent on it. The only problem was that it was kind of expensive, but now, as you mention, it effectively got 25 points cheaper, so I think I'll be taking it a lot in the future.

That extra armor just comes in handy so often. Not getting mowed down by pulse rifles and bolters, not getting AS horribly eviscerated by a vehicle explosion, etc.

I'll go as far to say that if you have Veterans, and you aren't using either of the other two doctrines on them, this is a MUST buy.

Sure, there's a lot of AP 4 weapons in today's game. But there's typically 10 times as many AP 5 weapons. This is a peanuts cost upgrade for a radically improved survivability.

I like it because I can run plasma guns on them without fearing for my life with bad Get's Hot rolls.

BUT with the 2 firing points, I'm forgoing a third special weapon. With Mechvets still in their transport for a majority of their game, I don't see a point. Now if I'm planning on them getting out, then I'll add it. For example, Valk-vets.

3rd Special is there in case you disembark or lose someone along the way.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'll go as far to say that if you have Veterans, and you aren't using either of the other two doctrines on them, this is a MUST buy.

They're not exclusive. You can take grenadiers and still then take the other doctrines.

In which case, one might say that veterans are the same as they were in the old codex, except that they lost krak grenades, became 5 points more expensive, and got upgraded to Sv 4+.

Definitely. They've finally priced the carapace upgrade reasonably. In the company command squad, however, I noticed that you cannot buy carapace for the regimental advisors. The company commander also needs to buy it separately as special issue wargear at 5 points. Still, it got a drop there as well.

 Barksdale wrote:
Definitely. They've finally priced the carapace upgrade reasonably. In the company command squad, however, I noticed that you cannot buy carapace for the regimental advisors. The company commander also needs to buy it separately as special issue wargear at 5 points. Still, it got a drop there as well.

The command squad carapace upgrade costs: 4*2+5 = 13, so they shaved 7 points off of it. It's kind of annoying that the advisors can't get that upgrade or the camo upgrade.

I think doctrines are a must have at the reduced price. You can now buy camo-vets for the cost of the old basic vet squad. It's awesome to have a 70 point squad with 3+ cover saves in ruins, give them 3 sniper rifles and a heavy bolter, and that is an 86 point unit with 3+ cover save that will not be shot off an objective.

Carapace armor is great for plasma vets and mech-assault vets. I'm going to run a mech-list with plasma vets and a squad of carapace vets with 2 flamers and a heavy flamer for clearing out objectives.

It's so cheap it seems like an auto-include to me. Makes me wanna get DKoK Grenadiers.

I think it's a great price. I think buying it helps a lot against Gets Hot and vehicle explosions, while it doesn't help enough to be an autoinclude.

Much like lasguns/shotguns, I think the stakes are low enough, and the options even enough, that a player can pick either choice.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
Definitely. They've finally priced the carapace upgrade reasonably. In the company command squad, however, I noticed that you cannot buy carapace for the regimental advisors. The company commander also needs to buy it separately as special issue wargear at 5 points. Still, it got a drop there as well.

The command squad carapace upgrade costs: 4*2+5 = 13, so they shaved 7 points off of it. It's kind of annoying that the advisors can't get that upgrade or the camo upgrade.

Yeah, annoying about the advisors. Oh well. Also, if you buy the veterans weapon team, it's actually only 11 points (3*2+5), as the veteran weapons team is only a single model.

It's finally reasonably priced, 30pts was laughable before, but it's finally feels like something useable that you aren't crippling yourself to take.

 Ailaros wrote:

They're not exclusive. You can take grenadiers and still then take the other doctrines.

Wow, I only read what I expected there instead of what was actually written.

Dang ole humans get reasonable troops now!

Yep, it's excellent at 15pts. I used it in the last codex (wincing at the price every time), but it means the veterans are twice as survivable against the guns that pretty much every basic unit in the game has. Means they don't die to random bolters so much.

I would go on to say that all the doctrines are useful at their price points now.

The most popular and easiest to include in a list are the infiltrators and grenadiers which are excellent for their price and make the vets more useful when they actually contribute on the board.

Demolitions is pretty good if you can use it correctly but kind of needs one of the other doctrines to keep the unit alive. A unit of melta bombs will put the hurt on any imperial knight you get charged by or charge. The Demo charge is also pretty good to put the hurt on a unit.

It might almost be worth allying in a land raider just so that you can deliver a priest with 10 dudes with meltabombs somewhere reliably (well, and have an assault ramp).

That only works if you're standing behind the Land Raider. Allies can't use each other's transports.

 ansacs wrote:
I would go on to say that all the doctrines are useful at their price points now.

The most popular and easiest to include in a list are the infiltrators and grenadiers which are excellent for their price and make the vets more useful when they actually contribute on the board.

Demolitions is pretty good if you can use it correctly but kind of needs one of the other doctrines to keep the unit alive. A unit of melta bombs will put the hurt on any imperial knight you get charged by or charge. The Demo charge is also pretty good to put the hurt on a unit.

Infiltrators????

General Hobbs wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
I would go on to say that all the doctrines are useful at their price points now.

The most popular and easiest to include in a list are the infiltrators and grenadiers which are excellent for their price and make the vets more useful when they actually contribute on the board.

Demolitions is pretty good if you can use it correctly but kind of needs one of the other doctrines to keep the unit alive. A unit of melta bombs will put the hurt on any imperial knight you get charged by or charge. The Demo charge is also pretty good to put the hurt on a unit.

Infiltrators????

Poor choice of words. I believe he means to say forward sentries. It would be cool if they granted infiltrate, but they don;t.

Difference between having your guys die instantly to bolters or Fire Warriors, I almost always take Grenadiers Doctrines on my Veterans just for that reason alone.