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I started my first 40k army a year or so into 5th edition. I remember the complete domination that Grey Knights had when they were released. Now, they're a mid-tier army at best. I personally saw Orks go from a solid mid-tier army (possibly higher) to bottom tier in a single edition...with the same codex.

My question is: how much can a current codex change between editions? It seems difficult to imagine Tau or Eldar becoming "weak". Most of their power comes from the codex, not the game rules. In ANY edition, Tau will still be able to put out ignoring cover, Strength 9 AP 2 Ordnance large blasts with great range that never miss. Is it possible to make such an ability bad?

Can you think of any edition changes that would take Tau or Eldar down a notch?

Codexes can change a lot, as rules and interactions change.

Look at Fleet for example. One small, schizophrenic USR that keeps changing in meaning, sodding up how codexes work each time they change it.

Codexes change in power constantly.

It's all part of the game.

Siphen wrote:

Can you think of any edition changes that would take Tau or Eldar down a notch?

Easily. As a counter for your ordnance example, if a future edition brought in a rule for ordnance that required all units within 12 inches of the ordnance weapon to take a Ld test or forfeit their own shooting on the turn it fires, because cinematic... That would suck some of the life out of it.


Changes to the core rules can have a massive effect on the power level of a codex.

They could do what they shoulda done the first time around and make the riptide a jet pack walker with AV 12/12/10 and the invuln shield.

It definitely seems like an uphill battle to try and knock them off their pedestal up there with the eldar and daemons without literally making a nerfdex. It'd be nice if they could use the tau codex (sans the OPtide) as a goal for the power of the other codices. But I don't believe the GW codex designers have enough insight into the game to do that successfully.

One clear example of how changes to the rulebook can change the power level of a codex is he demise of the rhino rush.
Originally in 3rd edition you could move a rhino, disembark, shoot, then assault. And if you were victorious, you could then consolidate into a new combat. The transport rules were changed so that you could no longer disembark and assault if the transport moved, and then to couldn't disembark and assault at all. Changes to the consolidation rules mean that you can no longer stay in combat the whole game.

What the changes mean, is that a tactic that worked with a codex in 3rd will definately not work with the same codex in the current edition.

Another thing to consider is the updates to other codices than your own. Harlequins and similar troops derive a lot of their protection from cover saves. And then you Introduce lots of units and weapons that ignore cover. Without changing anything about the harlequins, you have just nerfed them hard

Siphen wrote:
I started my first 40k army a year or so into 5th edition. I remember the complete domination that Grey Knights had when they were released. Now, they're a mid-tier army at best. I personally saw Orks go from a solid mid-tier army (possibly higher) to bottom tier in a single edition...with the same codex.

My question is: how much can a current codex change between editions? It seems difficult to imagine Tau or Eldar becoming "weak". Most of their power comes from the codex, not the game rules. In ANY edition, Tau will still be able to put out ignoring cover, Strength 9 AP 2 Ordnance large blasts with great range that never miss. Is it possible to make such an ability bad?

Can you think of any edition changes that would take Tau or Eldar down a notch?

Easy. They could just remove Ignores Cover as a special rule entirely. Then GW being GW would rule in the FAQ that the "Ignores Cover" ability of markerlights simply "does nothing" for the next 5+ years. Same with Interceptor, Skyfire, etc. Those pieces of wargear you pay points for would just "do nothing" and become useless. They've done it before, when the core rules change how a piece of wargear works, like in the old Tau codex when a piece of wargear referenced passing a Target Priority test when no such thing existed anymore in 5th edition, so it was ruled that the C&C Node just "did nothing". Same with Target Locks, though I think most people just let you split fire with those units anyway since it was clear what the wargear was supposed to do, and probably felt bad for people still playing Tau in 5th edition since they were so crap. And of course now I'm just a fun-hating-douchebag-TFG-WAAC-tournament-gamer who deserves to be shot in the back of the head execution style for not eBaying my army immediately when the 6th edition codex dropped, or burning all my models in effigy. Kinda funny how quickly things change...or not since Tau were garbage for like 4-5 years straight, but you know...at least to me it still feels like just yesterday when Tau were bottom tier.

Another way they could make the Tau codex weaker (since it wouldn't hurt Eldar too bad I imagine, having assault units of their own), is to buff assault, which they could also very easily do with a new edition. Assault has worked differently in damn near every edition, same with shooting (IIRC you used to have to pass a Target Priority test, which was basically a Leadership test, to shoot at a unit other than the one that was closest to you? I sold my 4e rulebook so I can't look it up...also I think Overwatch was in 3rd, then went away for a while and now it's back again)...as mentioned above, in 3rd you could move, disembark, shoot, and assault all in the same turn, and consolidate into a new combat if you won! It's not hard to imagine that kind of crap coming back, and other things, like assaulting from reserves or after deep striking for example, or making charge ranges 6+d6" so you get a guaranteed 6" minimum with a 12" maximum charge, changing wound allocation again so losing units to Overwatch (assuming they don't remove Overwatch...again...) doesn't stop the assault, etc. If you made any or all of those changes then I could imagine you could leave the Tau codex as-is and it would be a lot more "balanced" just from that alone.

With Tau in particular though, I have a feeling it doesn't really matter what you do, there are some people out there who will never be happy until Tau are just removed from the game, period. They don't even want to look at Tau, and don't really care if their rules are balanced or not, just existing is an offense in itself.

With Tau in particular though, I have a feeling it doesn't really matter what you do, there are some people out there who will never be happy until Tau are just removed from the game, period. They don't even want to look at Tau, and don't really care if their rules are balanced or not, just existing is an offense in itself.

True enough, if they think it they'll use any excuse for it. I may not like tau's power, but it's not worth getting rid of the whole faction over.

Unlike others who believe if you had one OP codex and they don't like the race, will constantly state you never deserve even a fraction of the options from it again (CSM).

But of course, they will be picky, like if it's an Imperial Faction like BA (3rd), SW (2nd, 3rd, 5th) GK (5th), or a fan favorite like Eldar (4th), you'll hear nothing but quiet 'But they aren't as good now, forgive them?'

Every codex can act decent. Don't tell me about orks and tiers, my orkses still win taudar from time to time. The problem is that core rules change how units work alot. For example, orkses.

Green tide - if you'd ask an ork player back in 4 or 5 edition about effectiveness of greentide - he'd say: "Greentide will be foverer viable. No matter what."
So, here comes 6 ed with cover rule changing, death of the closest, precision shots and makes greentide not viable. New rules for not charging from outflanks make commandoes not playable at all. But the changes to bikes and FNP made nob bikers + bikerboss very strong. Changes to vehicle HP and cover saves reduced ork walkers from awesome kan-wall to very weak. But the exact same changes + snapshot mechanics made lootas a totally viable unit up from a mediocre one (some orkses may argue that lootas were great in 5 ed but most armies were functioning without them at all). Changes to power weapons and shift to lower-str weapons due to hull-point system made meganobz viable. They were almost useless previously. Changes to artillery made grot artillery a great unit.

So, the changes in game mechanics do affect unit's strength from codexes alot. And on such occasions you can see how good is the codexe's inner ballance written. Orkses have lost lots of solid options but gained lots of new ones ballancing things out on the whole. The problem is if you're willing to aquire new models and stop using the old ones to react to that changes.

Siphen wrote:
I started my first 40k army a year or so into 5th edition. I remember the complete domination that Grey Knights had when they were released. Now, they're a mid-tier army at best. I personally saw Orks go from a solid mid-tier army (possibly higher) to bottom tier in a single edition...with the same codex.

My question is: how much can a current codex change between editions? It seems difficult to imagine Tau or Eldar becoming "weak". Most of their power comes from the codex, not the game rules. In ANY edition, Tau will still be able to put out ignoring cover, Strength 9 AP 2 Ordnance large blasts with great range that never miss. Is it possible to make such an ability bad?

Can you think of any edition changes that would take Tau or Eldar down a notch?

To be fair, sixth edition is the first edition where tau were top tier. It's difficult to imagine tau being weak? Yeah, no offense bud, but you've not been around much if you claim that.

In third edition, they were a guy line army in a rhino rush/assault focused edition. Mid tier at best.
Fourth gave tau one very good skimmer based build which was extremely viable in early fourth ed, but by mid to late fourth, cracks were starting to show with more recent releases at the tine, and it really didn't age well in comparison. Mid tier at the best of times, and then lower.
Fifth edition saw tau all but gutted as a faction with only a handful of mediocre options at best; all the wind had been sucked out of their sails. Bottom tier.

Is it possible to make tau weak? Sure. Gut the monstrous creature rules that riptides rely on. Make assault better, and nerf shooting. Don't be surprised if gw pulls something like this either.

an obvious thing that could be changed in a new edition that would disproportionaly Hurt Tau would be changes to jet pack infantry


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

Siphen wrote:
I started my first 40k army a year or so into 5th edition. I remember the complete domination that Grey Knights had when they were released. Now, they're a mid-tier army at best. I personally saw Orks go from a solid mid-tier army (possibly higher) to bottom tier in a single edition...with the same codex.

My question is: how much can a current codex change between editions? It seems difficult to imagine Tau or Eldar becoming "weak". Most of their power comes from the codex, not the game rules. In ANY edition, Tau will still be able to put out ignoring cover, Strength 9 AP 2 Ordnance large blasts with great range that never miss. Is it possible to make such an ability bad?

Can you think of any edition changes that would take Tau or Eldar down a notch?

To be fair, sixth edition is the first edition where tau were top tier. It's difficult to imagine tau being weak? Yeah, no offense bud, but you've not been around much if you claim that.

In third edition, they were a guy line army in a rhino rush/assault focused edition. Mid tier at best.
Fourth gave tau one very good skimmer based build which was extremely viable in early fourth ed, but by mid to late fourth, cracks were starting to show with more recent releases at the tine, and it really didn't age well in comparison. Mid tier at the best of times, and then lower.
Fifth edition saw tau all but gutted as a faction with only a handful of mediocre options at best; all the wind had been sucked out of their sails. Bottom tier.

Is it possible to make tau weak? Sure. Gut the monstrous creature rules that riptides rely on. Make assault better, and nerf shooting. Don't be surprised if gw pulls something like this either.

Here's a rule that could instantly make Tau a LOT weaker. "when shooting at jet pack infantry on a roll of 6 to hit, the shot detonates the jump pack of the unit. dealing 1d6 wounds to the jet pack infantry hit" it's insane and would proably never happen, but if it did it'd put the screws on Tau, HARD

Anything that nerfs overwatch is going to hit Tau hard, as they are rather dependent on it to stay out of assaults. Once you get into combat with Tau, they fold relatively easily.

Could always put in a rule that Monstrous Creatures can only join or be joined by Monstrous Creatures.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Anything that nerfs overwatch is going to hit Tau hard, as they are rather dependent on it to stay out of assaults. Once you get into combat with Tau, they fold relatively easily.

Exalted, I was going to bring this up myself.

Another example, with another army is Blood Angels, and how the changes to assault in 6th nerfed them hard.

Ralis wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Anything that nerfs overwatch is going to hit Tau hard, as they are rather dependent on it to stay out of assaults. Once you get into combat with Tau, they fold relatively easily.

Exalted, I was going to bring this up myself.

Another example, with another army is Blood Angels, and how the changes to assault in 6th nerfed them hard.

Ironically that only nerfed their weaker list, the deep strike list was far and below the Razorback spam of 5th Mech-hammer.

It was both the weakening of Mech and Assault that hit BA harder then most.