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I would like to start this thread to discuss AM troops.

Please feel free to discuss tips, tricks, good choices, combos & ideas.

There's not really a bad option, to be honest. Vets and everything in a platoon all work out well. Here's my pick, though:

Multiple Small/Big units:

PCS

PIS, melta
PIS, melta
PIS, melta

Conscripts

SWS, snipers
SWS, snipers
SWS, snipers

all of the above x2

This gives you a lot of big units, which, with added Priests and Primarises, can be a big threat, while also having half a dozen smaller units that can throw up some serious target priority issues. If the enemy shoot the SWS/PCS, the blobs are unmolested, if they shoot the blobs, the SWS/PCS are free to score. It's a win-win.

To start the discussion, a rundown:

New Options for IG/AM Troops choices:
Major Changes:
-Cheaper and much better Priests
-Much better orders from both PCS and CCS
-Taurox as a dedicated transport
-Chimera has altered fire ports/lasgun arrays
-Loss of reliable outflanking options
Minor Changes:
-The ability to take Flak Missiles
-Bolters on squad leaders
-3 SWS per platoon as opposed to 2
-Slightly cheaper Commissars

New Pricing:
-Conscripts -1 point per model
-Vets -10 points (but do not come with Krak grenades)
-Heavy Flamer in Vets and PCS -10 points
-Vet Doctrine upgrades are cheaper (except for Demolitions)
-Power Weapons +5 points
-Chimeras +10 points
-Sniper Rifles -3 points
-Plasma Pistols +5 points

All considered, I'd say the changes that really matter are Orders, Priests, and cheap Conscripts, but that's just my opinion.

Biophysical wrote:
All considered, I'd say the changes that really matter are Orders, Priests, and cheap Conscripts, but that's just my opinion.

I think the fancy new Divination Psykers are a pretty big buff to infantry if you want to use them for that. A decent sized blob will benefit quite a bit from Prescience, especially when combined with orders like Take Aim.

True enough, I guess I figured Inquisitors basically offered the same thing already. An in-house version is nice, however.

Yeah, nice but not strictly necessary.

As for blobs, we'll see how they go. You can get cheaper conscripts now, but not much else has changed. Given that conscripts themselves are only capable of handling infantry, I'm not 100% that a cheap conscript screen will really do the trick.

I mean, they weren't before, and a squad of 20 only cost 20 points more than they do now. You'd think we'd have seen an attempt at this strategy before now.

Because not a lot changed for foot guard, I can't imagine that much has changed for foot guard. The only real difference is the source of fearless (but leadership was never the problem with blobs, as rerollable Ld9/10 was practically fearless anyways). And a non-ally way of getting prescience.

Also, orders are better, but I don't know if they're far and away better. They stack better with other abilities now, and some are, of course, straight better (like the ones that didn't exist before), but all the reasons orders weren't grossly overpowered before are still the reasons they're not grossly overpowered now.

Meanwhile, on the other side, mechvets are almost identical to the way they were before, except if you want to shoot all three plasma guns, you've got to get out first, which isn't that big of a deal, and the basic defesive playstyle of them is the same.

The one thing that does kind of interest me now is that you can sort of think of vets as having lost krak grenades, but have the option to take a Sv 4+ for only 5 points. Perhaps there's something new to be added to the pot with foot vets.

I can see a carapace horde working pretty well, to be honest. I ran that in the last codex with 50 vets and 30 stormies, and now both options are a fair bit cheaper, there's plenty of room for supporting units that sometimes had to be left out before.

And you can also take stormies as platoons. You don't even need to deepstrike them. Just plant 170 carapace armored models on the table and then run forward in BS4 special weapon ecstasy.

Really the big conscript change was the Priest more than the price reduction, I suppose. You can get 30 with a Priest for 115 points, whis is 5 points less than you used to get 30 before. That's significant because it's still only a little more than a well-equipped infantry squad, about twice as much as a pretty cheap infantry squad.

This is probably the big "new" Troops choice Guard get. You had to devote a pretty expensive HQ slot in the form of a Lord Commissar to get something like this before. Basically it was a non-starter. The cheap and cheerful Fearless Thirty is just asking to be sent straight at the enemy. It will beat a lot of crummy stuff up if it actually gets anywhere, but it's going to take some effort, effort that would kill it's points in Guardsmen much faster. If you consider that the primary job of the Troops choice is to exist near an objective, 30 Fearless wounds for 115 points is pretty good for the job. If you consider the second job of Troops is to take and defend objectives, a crap-ton of re-rolled to hit rolls and maybe to-wound rolls isn't a bad path to taking an objective. It's so cheap that the Priest getting sniped is no real tragedy either.

Carapace Foot Vets seems like it could be fun, but I don't know if it really works. Several posters have argued that a lot of armies can kill 40 Guardsmen a turn. I don't think Carapace is really cutting that in half to 20 Guardsmen per turn.

Yeah, carapace vets don't die slower than 4++ buffed blobs. They do get an AWFUL lot more killing power, though. Don't know if that fixes the problem any more than other attempts, but it might at least be another close, if not a cigar.

Also, a carry-over from the other thread. Mechvets just taking techpriests like blobs just take priests? The ride is more secure, the PotMS keeps both chimera's weapons firing, and whenever the vets arrive, they have a unit with a plasma pistol and a powerfist with a Sv3+. Kind of pricey, but with elite-based armies, spending points isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, carapace vets don't die slower than 4++ buffed blobs. They do get an AWFUL lot more killing power, though. Don't know if that fixes the problem any more than other attempts, but it might at least be another close, if not a cigar.

Also, a carry-over from the other thread. Mechvets just taking techpriests like blobs just take priests? The ride is more secure, the PotMS keeps both chimera's weapons firing, and whenever the vets arrive, they have a unit with a plasma pistol and a powerfist with a Sv3+. Kind of pricey, but with elite-based armies, spending points isn't necessarily a bad thing.

If they're toting plasma would it be worth it to put a Primaris in too? Or is it too high a price at that point? I'd probably go with one or the other.

I think it's probably bad for the points, but I was looking at Carapace Mech-Vet + Priest for Fearless and an extra plasma gun. That unit hops out and lights something up and isn't too kind to counter-attackers of any sort. A techpriest could add something in that spot, or in the 12th seat. After disembarkation, I could see a techpriest splitting off to wail on vehicles with his Powerfist. That's sort of cool. In general, it's nice to have units that can split off to go after separate targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've thought about Priest + Primaris also. Lots of points, but with quad plasmas, might as well go for the re-roll. A power axe and Ld 9 for orders is never bad to have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, if you take the price of a Veteran, give him an upgrade for extra attack and leadership, give him a Power Axe and Power Fist, you end up being a bit more than the cost of a Techpriest. Throw in power armor, IC status, PotMS, and the occasional fixit roll and it starts looking like a pretty good buy.

Okay, so what's the "best" option here?

Priest gives fearless (which isn't going to be that useful given it's a tiny mech squad), but also gives a small buff to close combat, and an extra plasma gun. Primaris gives a small buff to close combat and makes the plasma guns you have twin-linked (which in the case of 3 BS4 plasma guns adds exactly the same as another BS4 plasma gun). The techpriest adds a slightly bigger buff in close combat, and adds no plasma (was wrong about that), but instead makes it so that you can fire an extra heavy flamer/whatever and gives split firing (if that's useful here), and keeps the chimera on the board a little better.

So, what does that mean? I think it means that the primaris is just out. Adding a BS4 plasma gun is better than adding a BS3 plasma gun, especially since you can't stick that extra plasma gun out the now smaller top hatch, but the priest is cheaper, and just gets a plasma gun, rather than the primaris, who has to pass a psychic test. The primaris is only better if you have no intention at all of getting out of the chimera ever, but is it worth that many points just to usually twin-link a BS4 lascannon chilling out in the background? Probably not, especially since you're getting dangerously close to another vet squad in cost. Meanwhile, if you do want to keep the chimera in the backfield, the self-repair is going to be better, because the whole point is to keep them in a chimera, and PotMS is probably going to be more handy than that usually twin-linked.

So, then you compare the priest to the techpriest. Priest might get smash, but techpriest just gets a powerfist. Sv3+ vs. 4++ is a slight gain to the priest, as is the fact that he can sometimes buff the squad. The priest gets fearless, but come on, is a 11-man vet squad going to survive a round of shooting and close combat? I'd give the slight edge to the techpriest, but it's pretty close either way.

So then what is more important, getting an extra plasma gun when you dismount, or making it less likely that you'll have to dismount in the first place while buffing the ride?

Well, the priest will do better if there's going to be a mass close combat around, as he'd be able to just kind of sneak those vets in... eventually, given that the chimera isn't an assault vehicle. He's also going to be better if orders are around because extra BiD plasma gun. Meanwhile, the techpriest is going to be better if there's a risk of being caught in a close combat without any other units in the close combat (as in, on the defensive). They're also going to be more useful if there are other vehicles are around (even if the chimera is destroyed, there still might be other stuff to repair/buff).

I think that's the split, then. If you're going to be running around with stuff, the techpriest is better. He's better in close combat on the defensive, and he's better for a more self-sufficient vet squad as he can keep the whole thing in tact better, and can keep the ride, not just the squad, at full power. Meanwhile, if the mechvets are going to be used around a great deal of other commotion, the priest can make better use out of being supported by something else. To put it another way the priest can use orders, but the techpriest doesn't need them.

So, I suppose in the case of a hybrid list, where you're more likely going to have something that needs to get bailed out by a priest with some mechvets, and there will be abblative wounds and orders for the priest to make use of, then it's the priest. For pretty much anything else, I'd say the techpriest.

Especially if you're going a full-mech list (mechvets+russes or leafblower), because the techpriest will have a lot of work on his hands.

I'll add a bit of input to this.

With the last book I used to run Vets upgraded with meltabombs and democharges. With the new release allowing us to take 4+ armor AND Camo with defensive grenades for less than my previous upgrades I thought I'd try it out.

Last game I played I ran 4 units of foot vets, Heavy Flamer, 2 meltas, and auto cannon and both the previously mentioned upgrades WITH OUT ANY TRANSPORT. (Crazy right?)

I was impressed by these goobers. 125 pts a unit. They dished out AC rounds, either stationary (as some took objectives in ruins) or snap shooting on the move. The +1 to cover at all times was amazing, and the combination of a 4+ and defensive grenades saw them being tricky or down right annoying to dislodge from cover by combat.

Over all, they did what they needed to do and did it surprisingly well for 125pts

Another small point that was added; SWS and conscripts now have frag grenades...not much more granted, but at least they got the "bare minimum" to actually be worth something in a fight, not to mention you can at least throw a small blast at someone now..

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, so what's the "best" option here?

Priest gives fearless (which isn't going to be that useful given it's a tiny mech squad), but also gives a small buff to close combat, and an extra plasma gun. Primaris gives a small buff to close combat and makes the plasma guns you have twin-linked (which in the case of 3 BS4 plasma guns adds exactly the same as another BS4 plasma gun). The techpriest adds a slightly bigger buff in close combat, and adds no plasma (was wrong about that), but instead makes it so that you can fire an extra heavy flamer/whatever and gives split firing (if that's useful here), and keeps the chimera on the board a little better.

So, what does that mean? I think it means that the primaris is just out. Adding a BS4 plasma gun is better than adding a BS3 plasma gun, especially since you can't stick that extra plasma gun out the now smaller top hatch, but the priest is cheaper, and just gets a plasma gun, rather than the primaris, who has to pass a psychic test. The primaris is only better if you have no intention at all of getting out of the chimera ever, but is it worth that many points just to usually twin-link a BS4 lascannon chilling out in the background? Probably not, especially since you're getting dangerously close to another vet squad in cost. Meanwhile, if you do want to keep the chimera in the backfield, the self-repair is going to be better, because the whole point is to keep them in a chimera, and PotMS is probably going to be more handy than that usually twin-linked.

So, then you compare the priest to the techpriest. Priest might get smash, but techpriest just gets a powerfist. Sv3+ vs. 4++ is a slight gain to the priest, as is the fact that he can sometimes buff the squad. The priest gets fearless, but come on, is a 11-man vet squad going to survive a round of shooting and close combat? I'd give the slight edge to the techpriest, but it's pretty close either way.

So then what is more important, getting an extra plasma gun when you dismount, or making it less likely that you'll have to dismount in the first place while buffing the ride?

Well, the priest will do better if there's going to be a mass close combat around, as he'd be able to just kind of sneak those vets in... eventually, given that the chimera isn't an assault vehicle. He's also going to be better if orders are around because extra BiD plasma gun. Meanwhile, the techpriest is going to be better if there's a risk of being caught in a close combat without any other units in the close combat (as in, on the defensive). They're also going to be more useful if there are other vehicles are around (even if the chimera is destroyed, there still might be other stuff to repair/buff).

I think that's the split, then. If you're going to be running around with stuff, the techpriest is better. He's better in close combat on the defensive, and he's better for a more self-sufficient vet squad as he can keep the whole thing in tact better, and can keep the ride, not just the squad, at full power. Meanwhile, if the mechvets are going to be used around a great deal of other commotion, the priest can make better use out of being supported by something else. To put it another way the priest can use orders, but the techpriest doesn't need them.

So, I suppose in the case of a hybrid list, where you're more likely going to have something that needs to get bailed out by a priest with some mechvets, and there will be abblative wounds and orders for the priest to make use of, then it's the priest. For pretty much anything else, I'd say the techpriest.

Especially if you're going a full-mech list (mechvets+russes or leafblower), because the techpriest will have a lot of work on his hands.

You can add both a priest and a techpriest to the squad since the transport cap is 12.

Also, how does smash work on a servo-arm?

Priests only give smash to themselves. The other two go to the squad, but not smash.

Which is why I'd say the techpriest is better. Fearless is less useful on tiny, squishy squads, and hatred/warhymns aren't as good on just a couple guys with bayonets, while smash isn't as good as a powerfist.

The priest would probably be better in a challenge, thanks to the ++, but that's about it.

 Ailaros wrote:
Priests only give smash to themselves. The other two go to the squad, but not smash.

Which is why I'd say the techpriest is better. Fearless is less useful on tiny, squishy squads, and hatred/warhymns aren't as good on just a couple guys with bayonets, while smash isn't as good as a powerfist.

The priest would probably be better in a challenge, thanks to the ++, but that's about it.

Right, I knew that; derp.

It depends on the challenge too; if it's a goober with an AP4 or worse weapon, the techpriest is a better person to accept the challenge with. The priest is meh. Also, if the goober has an AP3 or better weapon, accept with the throwaway sergeant XD - after all, the squad is still LD8 with the techpriest.

Ally in tigerius and GoI a blob 24"

Another thing about the priest/techpriest debate, Ailaros, is how do the two affect the rest of your list.

What I mean is, a regular priest is awesome for his squad, but unless you break him off from his squad he can't do much for other units.

The techpriest on the other hand, can do something even as he sits in the chimera. If you have the chimera near a unit of russes for example, he can still give his power of the machine spirit buff out even as he sits in the chimera safe and sound. Since mechvets are probably being used in a tank list, this is a big deal. That alone I think would make the techpriest the clear winner.

On the topic of troops, what's the big excitement for SWS's with snipers? Is it just that they're super cheap scoring units?

bolt guns on sergents is a nice thing, only 1 point and proably worth it just so the sergent can shoot with his troops.

The sniper SWS are super cheap scoring units that can actually sort of get something done. Dirt cheap, scoring, reasonably tough for its cost, and might do something useful. It's a good combination. If you're like me your also excited because it's a place to put cool sniper models that doesn't feel like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The techpriest on the other hand, can do something even as he sits in the chimera.

Hmm, so the techpriest is more of an upgrade for the chimera, and I guess I'll let some vets tag along.

I suppose what the moral of the story is that techpriests aren't worth it unless you can make use of both PotMS and repair, and the priest isn't really worth it unless you can take advantage of both fearless and the close combat buff. Taking one and using just one of those abilities isn't all that worth it.

MrMoustaffa wrote:On the topic of troops, what's the big excitement for SWS's with snipers? Is it just that they're super cheap scoring units?

Yeah, that's all.

It's something I'm not all that terribly excited about, myself. If you're taking a list with 250 scoring models in it, adding a few more... meh. For 14 more points, I could just take another PIS, which will have nearly twice the durability.

If you went REALLY heavy with the Sniper Rifles I could see some utility out of the Snipers, but yeah, only 3 models with them, with Guard shooting? Ehhhhhhhh.

Won't stop me from getting a bunch of the Vostroyan ones though (I love those models).

MrMoustaffa wrote:
On the topic of troops, what's the big excitement for SWS's with snipers? Is it just that they're super cheap scoring units?

ClockworkZion wrote:If you went REALLY heavy with the Sniper Rifles I could see some utility out of the Snipers, but yeah, only 3 models with them, with Guard shooting? Ehhhhhhhh.

Won't stop me from getting a bunch of the Vostroyan ones though (I love those models).

It's the combination of a couple of factors:

First, a 36 point scoring unit that can easily be taken in multiples, which, combined with a PCS, give you what amounts to an MSU contingent among the blobs.

They're scoring, which means that your opponent has to choose between dedicating (wasting?) firepower to dislodge half a dozen small units, therefore not hitting the blobs, or hitting the blobs, leaving you with a bunch of unhurt scoring units.

Any damage done by the Sniper Rifles is just gravy, with with 12 in 4 squads, that's a fair number of potential hits/even pins.

Basically, they're more useful that 36 points suggests.

Ah I see. You're saying take something like 6 of them and just spam them. That could be a fun strategy. At that point there's actually enough that they could be a little bit of a threat too if you concentrate their fire. I'd rather have ratlings if we're purely looking at shooting, but having twice the wounds and scorings is worth 6 pts and 1 less BS.

I probably wouldn't use them much, but I can see the appeal.

I'm more excited about trying a bunch of grenadier vet squads backed up by allied stormtroopers deep striking in. The list would probably cap out on troop slots pretty quickly, but I think it would be fun. Just make use of a bunch of Leman russes and maybe some armored sentinels and you're golden.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm more excited about trying a bunch of grenadier vet squads backed up by allied stormtroopers deep striking in.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more talk of this, allied stormtroopers deepstriking en masse could do a lot to help the IG's issues with scoring unit mobility. The couple of games I've had with the new book so far have been all about holding my backfield while pushing the midfield while my opponents leave only a token scoring unit on their own backfield. A smallish stormtrooper platoon threatening the enemy's backfield might be just the thing to alleviate the pressure a bit on the midfield.

 tuebor wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm more excited about trying a bunch of grenadier vet squads backed up by allied stormtroopers deep striking in.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more talk of this, allied stormtroopers deepstriking en masse could do a lot to help the IG's issues with scoring unit mobility. The couple of games I've had with the new book so far have been all about holding my backfield while pushing the midfield while my opponents leave only a token scoring unit on their own backfield. A smallish stormtrooper platoon threatening the enemy's backfield might be just the thing to alleviate the pressure a bit on the midfield.

I posted exactly this idea for an army build in the army lists section and got not a single response.

So IDK.

I really like this idea, but I hate the idea of buying another book just to let me do it. It's probably one of the more competitive ally options for Guard, and you're still taking Guard. It's just a difficult to get book, which sucks.

Thinking more on the SWS as an MSU component, I'm wondering about the 3x Grenade Launcher squad. I played with this idea when the last book came out, but 50 points seemed to expensive for crummy grenade launchers. 45 isn't much cheaper, but it is cheaper, and they get frag grenades. Most importantly, though, 4+ saves are becoming a lot more common, and 45 points for 3 S6 shots at 24", with the option for blasts if the enemy is bunched up, seems like it's not a bad thing. It can advance along-side a conscript squad, shoot some targets of opportunity, and just be a cheap scoring unit that the enemy has to kill to stop you from scoring/contesting. The trip flamer squad probably does much of the same thing, but better, because you'll actually be able to accomplish something if you get somewhere, but it doesn't offer any real firepower on the way.

Biophysical wrote:

Thinking more on the SWS as an MSU component, I'm wondering about the 3x Grenade Launcher squad. I played with this idea when the last book came out, but 50 points seemed to expensive for crummy grenade launchers. 45 isn't much cheaper, but it is cheaper, and they get frag grenades. Most importantly, though, 4+ saves are becoming a lot more common, and 45 points for 3 S6 shots at 24", with the option for blasts if the enemy is bunched up, seems like it's not a bad thing. It can advance along-side a conscript squad, shoot some targets of opportunity, and just be a cheap scoring unit that the enemy has to kill to stop you from scoring/contesting. The trip flamer squad probably does much of the same thing, but better, because you'll actually be able to accomplish something if you get somewhere, but it doesn't offer any real firepower on the way.

Grenade Launchers won't kill stuff either (thank you BS3). And the flamers are at least also usable when the squad is charged.


Also, I think there is no point in debating over the effectiveness of selections in this codex. I mean, the answer is always Orders and Divination. So we should argue about whether 3 ML2 Primaris Psykers are too much/too few/just OK, or how many CCS/PCS gives you the best cover of Orders. Everything else is secondary because you can just buff stuff into the heavens with Orders/Divination.