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For the record, thirty man conscripts are a *fantastic* thing, but I prefer to lead them with a COmmissar (Which is a new option now!) over a priest due to them *not* being fearless and, thus, they can go to ground.

Conscripts are all about mobbing objectives while the well-armed troopers sit back and shoot over their heads. Commissars make sure that they don't run off (and with all of them being 3 pt clones, who cares if you pick which shot or the opponent does? That reroll's going through either way!) Being able to Go to Ground increases their durability, which is key for any objective-holders, which is IMHO more useful than a priest upping their offense.

Right now, it looks like my core will be shrinking from three platoons, each with three ten-man squads, to just two, plus two units of 30 conscripts and a Commissar. A bit sad, but also quite neat.

I disagree strongly on the Commissar leading the Conscripts. He is much easier to kill, only a 4+ LOS and crappy armor save vs 2+ LOS and 4++. In combat, once the enemy challenges, a Commissar is either hiding or dead, and then you're testing on Stubborn Ld 5 in the best case. With the priest, you're not testing at all. I don't really care to hide conscripts or give them orders, so Ld 7 Fearless is way better then Ld 9 Stubborn. The extra close combat abilities of the Priest are just gravy.

Biophysical wrote:I really like this idea, but I hate the idea of buying another book just to let me do it. It's probably one of the more competitive ally options for Guard, and you're still taking Guard. It's just a difficult to get book, which sucks.

Do you really need the other book, though? Just C&P and print the orders that have been posted in several threads and you're done. That's what I'll be doing if I want MT allies.

That said, though, I'm not sold on the idea of bringing them as allies. You can get a maximum of 25 in an allied detachment (unless you use the formations) compared to 35 in a single AM Elite slot. Ok, they're scoring and get different orders, but there's less support options near them. Also, the reliance on MT orders could actually be a weakness, as if they kill the 5-man command squad then your Scion squads are far less useful; in an AM army, you'd still get orders from a CCS/PCS.

Thinking more on the SWS as an MSU component, I'm wondering about the 3x Grenade Launcher squad. I played with this idea when the last book came out, but 50 points seemed to expensive for crummy grenade launchers. 45 isn't much cheaper, but it is cheaper, and they get frag grenades. Most importantly, though, 4+ saves are becoming a lot more common, and 45 points for 3 S6 shots at 24", with the option for blasts if the enemy is bunched up, seems like it's not a bad thing. It can advance along-side a conscript squad, shoot some targets of opportunity, and just be a cheap scoring unit that the enemy has to kill to stop you from scoring/contesting. The trip flamer squad probably does much of the same thing, but better, because you'll actually be able to accomplish something if you get somewhere, but it doesn't offer any real firepower on the way.

Interesting idea. I can see the flamer one working best as a defensive unit, like a secondary fireball PCS. GL could work, but might be a bit to fragile on the basis that if you're shielding it with other units, it's not at its most effective.

AtoMaki wrote:
Also, I think there is no point in debating over the effectiveness of selections in this codex. I mean, the answer is always Orders and Divination. So we should argue about whether 3 ML2 Primaris Psykers are too much/too few/just OK, or how many CCS/PCS gives you the best cover of Orders. Everything else is secondary because you can just buff stuff into the heavens with Orders/Divination.

I think that's rather a sweeping statement. All the buffs in the world won't help if you can't score, advance or defend, so there is more to it that 'take stuff, add orders/divination'. If a poor unit with orders can be made good, then a good unit with orders can be made great.

 Paradigm wrote:
I think that's rather a sweeping statement. All the buffs in the world won't help if you can't score, advance or defend, so there is more to it that 'take stuff, add orders/divination'. If a poor unit with orders can be made good, then a good unit with orders can be made great.

Well, but the whole promise of the buffs that they allow you to advance (with the super-run/run&shoot order and all those offensive buffs) and defend (4+ invi/full BS overwatch power). Even Ogryns are a good choice that can wreak havoc when buffed with prescience and forewarning.

If you really want to dig into it, then maybe you can say that certain units have better synergy with the support elements because buffs are more cost-efficient on them (like tank squadrons and conscript blobs) while others are pretty bad targets for buffing (like Scout Sentinels). But the later category is pretty small so you can just use the 'lots of buffing units+random stuff you like=good army' equation and roll with it. It is not like the codex offers you a collection of vastly different units (it is usually 'dude' and 'dude with +1 BS' or 'tank' and 'tank with different gun'), if you know what I mean .

Spending 225 points for the chance at forewarning isn't very good. What happens when you don't get forewarning that game? Does the entire plan fall apart?

What happens when you don't get the power off that one turn that you really need it? Does the entire plan fall apart?

It seems like basing any guard strategy off of the results of a few die rolls is insanely risky, not insanely good.

Agreed. The trick is figuring out how much support can I buy to make my little dudes more effective for the points, while still retaining enough little dudes to make my plan work when stuff doesn't work out like I'd prefer.

Dare I say it, support units are support units?

It's really easy to overdo it with options and extras with guard. Generally it's better to just take more stuff than to try and buff the stuff you have. This principle is weakened slightly now that we have better buffers, but it didn't go away.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

 Ailaros wrote:
Spending 225 points for the chance at forewarning isn't very good. What happens when you don't get forewarning that game? Does the entire plan fall apart?

What happens when you don't get the power off that one turn that you really need it? Does the entire plan fall apart?

It seems like basing any guard strategy off of the results of a few die rolls is insanely risky, not insanely good.

The sweetest power, Prescience, doesn't require a roll. Everything else is just an extra since you cannot roll bad powers from Divination (maybe '5' is not optimal for the Primaris but hey, at least you have something to be replaced by Prescience). And it is not like the Codex is thriving in options in the 225 points range that equal with 6 Divination powers.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

The magic of the whole thing is that the ML2 Primaris will put that Prescience on anyone who needs it, not just on the blob. And as you said, rolls can ruin your day, and in this case, two PIS can't save you. Prescience can, though.

Prescience still requires a roll to see if it goes off, which it fails 1/6th of the time. Saying that a primaris psyker always casts prescience is like saying that terminators never fail armor saves.

And once again, it matters what you're casting prescience on. Presciencing a couple of lascannons isn't really worth it, and prescience gets worse the higher the BS of the model.

Are there some times when prescience can be worth it? Yes. Is it always worth it? Far from it. Is it auto-include? Not even slightly.

Just a thought. You can get an HQ and 2 deepstriking Troops for 165 points with MT allies. Guard equivalent of Guardian Jet Bikes? 5 man Scion squads can even occasionally get something done.

 Ailaros wrote:

Are there some times when prescience can be worth it? Yes. Is it always worth it? Far from it.

Why? Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad? Like, okay, casting Prescience on the Whywerns is silly, but nobody forces you to waste the power on units that don''t require it at that moment. Cast it on the full-plasma Executioners and watch the world burn. Or on the 50 strong blob.

For the note, I don't say that support units are necessary auto-include. But it is like a Tau army without Markerlights. The support is just adding so much to the army, not including it is like handicapping yourself.

AtoMaki wrote: Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad?

When the cost of the twin-linking is higher than the cost of buying other stuff that would do more.

 Ailaros wrote:

AtoMaki wrote: Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad?

When the cost of the twin-linking is higher than the cost of buying other stuff that would do more.

As I said before, I think the Codex does not provide much for 50/75 points that could do more than the Divination powers. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Whywern. Not counting the other support options of course (like the CCS).

 Ailaros wrote:

AtoMaki wrote: Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad?

When the cost of the twin-linking is higher than the cost of buying other stuff that would do more.

I've heard this many times before from many good folk, on the subject of buff vs more boys/toys. It's like this: Whilst you could get an extra infantry squad (or 2) or another lascannon, these buffs can support the entire army as needed.

Also its not 225pts; start with a single ML 1 and go from there.

Also also, prescience helps with force concentration.

I did consider the Ally option; with a 25pt tax you get non orderable scions. With infantry squads vs SWS its 30pts vs 50pts or 36pts vs 60-65pts. Is there use for 6 infantry men to hide out of LOS, unsure.

AtoMaki wrote:As I said before, I think the Codex does not provide much for 50/75 points that could do more than the Divination powers. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Whywern. Not counting the other support options of course (like the CCS).

Firstly, there's the assumption of carrier cost where there technically needen't. You don't need to buy a new unit instead of the psyker. Meltaguns and lascannons cost just 10 points apiece, for example, and if you don't have ALL of your weapons slots filled, then you get more literal bang per buck filling them.

Now, it's true that sometimes you can't spend those points because those slots are filled, fair enough. That just means, though, that the psykers are only a great buy when you can't spend his points on something else.

It's the problem that prescience psykers have. They don't do anything more than add killing power, which means that you can directly compare them to other things that add killing power, like more guns.

There are going to be examples here and there where it's going to be better than just more guns, certainly. I'm not saying that they're an awful, never-take unit. But it doesn't do to have irrational exuberance about them either, and just assume that they make your army 50% better all the time for practically no cost.

Some rudimentary maths on Primaris vs more stuff.

1 Infantry Squad, Lascannon, greater than 12" range:
Without Primaris: 3.5 Lasgun hits, 0.5 Lascannon hits
With Primaris: 5.25 Lasgun hits, 0.75 hits

Increase in effectiveness: 50%
Increase in cost: 71%
Result: Poor investment.


2 Infantry Squads, Lascannons, greater than 12" range:
Without Primaris: 7 lasgun hits, 1 Lascannon hit
With Primaris: 10.5 Lasgun hits, 1.5 Lascannon hits

Increase in effectiveness: 50%
Increase in cost: 35%

So from that, it would seem that on anything 2 squads or more, you're getting a greater effect than adding another infantry squad, purely on cost vs effect. That said, that's not taking into account the infliction of damage on the unit, and after only a few casualties, the 20-man squad will lose effectiveness.

So you really want to be adding a Primaris only on units of 30 men or greater, as then there's more guys that have to die before you're in the red on that ratio.

They're certainly not an auto-take, but there's no denying the effectiveness of them on large units.

Not quite.

So, take those two PISs with lascannons. Adding a primaris adds .5 lascannon hits and 7.5 lasgun/pistol hits. Adding another lascannon PIS adds another .5 lascannon hits, and another 7.5 lasgun hits.

So they look equal on the face of it, but they're not. Prescience only works 5/6ths of the time, so the extra PIS does more damage. Furthermore, the PIS adds 10 extra bodies of durability instead of only 2 wounds (on a non-scoring model) of it.

This means that if you have a 30-man blob squad, then it starts making sense, killing-power-wise, to add in a psyker than to upgrade it to a 40-man blob.

Meanwhile, in mech guard world, it's going to be hard to justify prescience just so you can reroll a pair of BS4 meltaguns, as that's not very much added for a lot of points.

That means that prescience psykers are only really useful if you're bringing a bunch of large infantry squads, or you plan on having your veterans spend a lot of time out of their chimera and far away from other sources of buffs.

At least, that's with troops choices, the purpose of this thread.

Yeah, I'd never take a Primaris for units of less than 30. I see your point about another IS adding the same to the 20-blob, but the Primaris is also cheaper, for what it's worth. Other than that, though, I agree that the extra guys are a better choice.

So troop mobility... How do AM get to or take mid-to-back field objectives?

 Ailaros wrote:
Dare I say it, support units are support units?

It's really easy to overdo it with options and extras with guard. Generally it's better to just take more stuff than to try and buff the stuff you have. This principle is weakened slightly now that we have better buffers, but it didn't go away.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

This is the worst argument you have ever made I think. We have control over how we build a list, so yes there is easily a way to make a list where you always benefit from prescience, and with three tries you are looking at way better then 1/6 where you need it. Further more, no you don't get 2 PIS your 25% short, and further once you realize you need upgrades to m,ake the unit worth taking to begin with.

THAT is where prescience is pure gold, it makes your upgrades all twice as effective for a fraction of the cost. 10 las canons is 200 points, 5 plus prescience is 150 and we aren't even looking at the additional costs involved with unlocking access to those las canons, just the upgrades.

P!ease keep to the OP please...

 Ailaros wrote:
Not quite.

So, take those two PISs with lascannons. Adding a primaris adds .5 lascannon hits and 7.5 lasgun/pistol hits. Adding another lascannon PIS adds another .5 lascannon hits, and another 7.5 lasgun hits.

So they look equal on the face of it, but they're not. Prescience only works 5/6ths of the time, so the extra PIS does more damage. Furthermore, the PIS adds 10 extra bodies of durability instead of only 2 wounds (on a non-scoring model) of it.

This means that if you have a 30-man blob squad, then it starts making sense, killing-power-wise, to add in a psyker than to upgrade it to a 40-man blob.

Meanwhile, in mech guard world, it's going to be hard to justify prescience just so you can reroll a pair of BS4 meltaguns, as that's not very much added for a lot of points.

That means that prescience psykers are only really useful if you're bringing a bunch of large infantry squads, or you plan on having your veterans spend a lot of time out of their chimera and far away from other sources of buffs.

At least, that's with troops choices, the purpose of this thread.

One thing though, a primaris pysker model costs like 12 bucks. A new blob costs way more

Ok being serious now. Main reason you might want primaris pyskers is because at a certain, you just have too many models. Lets take a very small example, two 30 man platoons with a 30 strong conscripts squad as well. That's a 130 infantry models counting the PCS for only 580pts base, ignoring possible Sws's, vets, CCS's, stormtroopers, etc. Think about how much time that takes to setup, deploy, move, etc.

Now, you have two options to increase your army's effectiveness. You can buy even more dudes, drastically increasing the amount of time it takes to play your army OR you can buy a few infantry models that increase your army's effectiveness almost as much. A few primaris pyskers, commissars, priests, and officers go a long way to increasing your army's ability to kill things without having to mortage your house to afford it.

The real question of course, is what your tipping point is where buying buff units becomes more practical than just buying more dudes. Tying this into the OP with troop choices, there is simply a point where conscripts and platoons will become too cumbersome. At that point, you'll want harder units like vets or allied stormtroopers to increase the amount of troops while still being useful, buff units to make the units you have better, or just go full crazy MSU and start spamming SWS' and HWS's

Red Corsair wrote: We have control over how we build a list, so yes there is easily a way to make a list where you always benefit from prescience

You're missing the entire point.

Prescience is only sometimes worth it. Can you build a list in such a way where it's more likely to be worth it? Yes. That still doesn't mean it's worth it outside of those times when it's worth it.

Figuring out when it is and when it isn't was rather the point of the post.

For the troops, Psykers are great, but not required.

If you're running blobs, let's say, your first focus on the list is giving those blobs a purpose and them kitting them in such a way that they do that job effectively for the least amount of points. This would be along the lines of making a blob of 30 duded with 3x Las/Plas. Now they need something to keep them around; throw in a Priest (or commissar I guess) for cheap fearless (and another plasma if you want) and now the blob is durable and has some teeth for the least amount of points spent.

When you're done adding blobs and other support units like Russes or arty, then you look at the weird amount of points left. Have 50 to spare? Psyker! Have 75? Even better Psyker! Have 100? More Psykers!

Point is, I don't think its ideal to start off adding in Psykers to your list; build the troops you want, then add the support units, then add in the support characters with the leftover points.

IG troops shouldn't be bloated. Its why I can't take a Taurox Prime seriously with the missile launcher option. Why spend that many points on an AV11 vehicle? Same goes for troops. Give them the tools they need first, then add in the support with the leftover points, if possible.

Psykers are good, but more guns are even better.

 Ailaros wrote:

Red Corsair wrote: We have control over how we build a list, so yes there is easily a way to make a list where you always benefit from prescience

You're missing the entire point.

Prescience is only sometimes worth it. Can you build a list in such a way where it's more likely to be worth it? Yes. That still doesn't mean it's worth it outside of those times when it's worth it.

Figuring out when it is and when it isn't was rather the point of the post.

Ok sure, flamers are only sometimes worth it, but you still take them for when you need them. I think your kicking the can around for no reason here.

The best part of prescience is you basically double your efficiency ANYWHERE you need it for the turn. In a game with set points limits this is almost always worth it as it lets you reach a level of efficiency in your list that you normally couldn't reach with a point cap. At low points your right, if all I have is a PIS then it's more worth it to take a second PIS then a PP, but at normal scale battles (1000+ points IMO) where you have many units with differing upgrades, its much more cost effective to buy a PP or 3 then it is to double up on every unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
For the troops, Psykers are great, but not required.

If you're running blobs, let's say, your first focus on the list is giving those blobs a purpose and them kitting them in such a way that they do that job effectively for the least amount of points. This would be along the lines of making a blob of 30 duded with 3x Las/Plas. Now they need something to keep them around; throw in a Priest (or commissar I guess) for cheap fearless (and another plasma if you want) and now the blob is durable and has some teeth for the least amount of points spent.

When you're done adding blobs and other support units like Russes or arty, then you look at the weird amount of points left. Have 50 to spare? Psyker! Have 75? Even better Psyker! Have 100? More Psykers!

Point is, I don't think its ideal to start off adding in Psykers to your list; build the troops you want, then add the support units, then add in the support characters with the leftover points.

IG troops shouldn't be bloated. Its why I can't take a Taurox Prime seriously with the missile launcher option. Why spend that many points on an AV11 vehicle? Same goes for troops. Give them the tools they need first, then add in the support with the leftover points, if possible.

Psykers are good, but more guns are even better.

I agree, but I think once your core shooters are picked then its time to think of those psychers. As I said, if you spend 300 points on a blob (5 PIS with auto canons) its WAY more cost efficient to add a 50 pt PP to double their output then it is to add another 300 point blob. It saves you 250 pts that you can now spend on an artillery battery. You basically get the same output AND added support units.

Priest, Psykers & 20-30 conscripts.

- testing on ld9 for hymns
- A mobile squad to hide the PP
- PP & priest buffs

The dirty dozen?

I feel that often one will be in my 20-30 IS blob/line & the other PP will be with conscripts.

Biophysical wrote:
I disagree strongly on the Commissar leading the Conscripts. He is much easier to kill, only a 4+ LOS and crappy armor save vs 2+ LOS and 4++. In combat, once the enemy challenges, a Commissar is either hiding or dead, and then you're testing on Stubborn Ld 5 in the best case. With the priest, you're not testing at all. I don't really care to hide conscripts or give them orders, so Ld 7 Fearless is way better then Ld 9 Stubborn. The extra close combat abilities of the Priest are just gravy.

LD5 stubborn is better than fearless because failure=execution auto pass=1-2 opponent picks a conscript 3-6 you pick a conscript. Well worth being able to g2g.

That being said the priest can detach and gives hate/shred in cc.

 Red Corsair wrote:


I agree, but I think once your core shooters are picked then its time to think of those psychers. As I said, if you spend 300 points on a blob (5 PIS with auto canons) its WAY more cost efficient to add a 50 pt PP to double their output then it is to add another 300 point blob. It saves you 250 pts that you can now spend on an artillery battery. You basically get the same output AND added support units.

...Which is basically what I'm saying. Its obviously dependent on the list and army size, but once you have your core of what the army should be doing, spending roughly ~85-90% of its points on actual bodies, guns and hulls, then throw in the psykers.

Without going into the specifics on every list possible, its safe to say the first priority of a Guard player is to develop the core of either a mechanized or foot force, backed by tanks or arty, then sprinkle in some psychic powers.

Its all a balancing game. Go to heavy on psychic support and you don't have the durability; go to light and you lack the versatility that prescience (when combined with orders) affords the new Guard player.

However, things like commissars and priests are kind of mandatory for large blobs to keep them where they need to be.

I also don't understand the hype around conscripts. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like the concept to begin with, but I'd much rather take 30+ guys in an infantry blob with guns to make use of things like orders and prescience from turn 1 with lascannons and such.

I think that primaris psykers and, depending on your infantry choices, priests as well, follow the rule of thumb for IG. This is assuming that we're above the level of 1250 points or so, so you have some room to play with.

1 is a target
2 is redundancy
3 is spam

I think 2 pskyers is enough, and 2 priests if you feel you need them for conscripts or blobs going up to 1850. Above that I think you could potentially have enough worthwhile targets for 3. But then again, I don't get to play very 2000 point games these days.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I agree, but I think once your core shooters are picked then its time to think of those psychers. As I said, if you spend 300 points on a blob (5 PIS with auto canons) its WAY more cost efficient to add a 50 pt PP to double their output then it is to add another 300 point blob. It saves you 250 pts that you can now spend on an artillery battery. You basically get the same output AND added support units.

...Which is basically what I'm saying. Its obviously dependent on the list and army size, but once you have your core of what the army should be doing, spending roughly ~85-90% of its points on actual bodies, guns and hulls, then throw in the psykers.

Without going into the specifics on every list possible, its safe to say the first priority of a Guard player is to develop the core of either a mechanized or foot force, backed by tanks or arty, then sprinkle in some psychic powers.

Its all a balancing game. Go to heavy on psychic support and you don't have the durability; go to light and you lack the versatility that prescience (when combined with orders) affords the new Guard player.

However, things like commissars and priests are kind of mandatory for large blobs to keep them where they need to be.

I also don't understand the hype around conscripts. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like the concept to begin with, but I'd much rather take 30+ guys in an infantry blob with guns to make use of things like orders and prescience from turn 1 with lascannons and such.

I agree; I'd rather have 3 normal squads I can get heavy/special weapons for better stats, a Sgt and the PCS for orders than a blob of guardsmen, just worse.