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The problem is that it's easier with HWSs than with any other non-IC unit in the codex. Which is really bad, given that they're likely going to be pretty high on your opponent's priority list, given that they have decent killing power and are so easy to kill.

HWSs haven't been all that much more than first blood bait for awhile now.

If you really wanted to get those orders passed better, I'd actually say take creed now, as that's one of the few ways in which he got better.

Strongly looking at making a vet squad with forward sentries and a missile launcher w/ flakk to sit with my aegis defense line and man the quad gun. Provides an effective anti-air unit that can also threaten other targets and benefit from orders. Possibly add a commissar to make sure all the orders stick.

Ignore Cover order on the quad gun vs Tau vehicles? I want to see that in action.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem is that it's easier with HWSs than with any other non-IC unit in the codex. Which is really bad, given that they're likely going to be pretty high on your opponent's priority list, given that they have decent killing power and are so easy to kill.

HWSs haven't been all that much more than first blood bait for awhile now.

If you really wanted to get those orders passed better, I'd actually say take creed now, as that's one of the few ways in which he got better.

Yea I haven't understood the SWS or the HWS acclaim either. The best argument put forward for SWS was cheap scoring which isn't really an issue with guard to begin with and HWS are still too fragile, you want ablative wounds, and since blob squads have access to the same HW list and come with said wounds its almost always better if not always to just bring a blob with hidden HWS.

For me, the SWS interest is more about exploring new options with a new codex. To try and toss away old notions and reanalyze to see what can be done. There's been a number of things that have changed since I last really thought about them, so I'm trying to do so now.

Good things about them from the codex:
5 points cheaper: Which on such a cheap squad starts mattering if you use a lot of them, which you now can, because...
3 per platoon: You can actually have a lot of them if you want to, so it's worth trying to imagine what happens if you do take a lot of them.

Frag grenades and cheap sniper rifles are also neat little changes that don't do much, but are nice.

Basically, 50 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of MEQs was only okay in a few instances. 45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...

I'm speechless !

Biophysical wrote:
For me, the SWS interest is more about exploring new options with a new codex. To try and toss away old notions and reanalyze to see what can be done. There's been a number of things that have changed since I last really thought about them, so I'm trying to do so now.

Good things about them from the codex:
5 points cheaper: Which on such a cheap squad starts mattering if you use a lot of them, which you now can, because...
3 per platoon: You can actually have a lot of them if you want to, so it's worth trying to imagine what happens if you do take a lot of them.

Frag grenades and cheap sniper rifles are also neat little changes that don't do much, but are nice.

Basically, 50 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of MEQs was only okay in a few instances. 45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

There we go, the magic words. New options with a new codex.

I use 3 HWS; 1 mortar, 1 autocannons, 1 lascannons. mortar hide behind cover and plob shells from above, harrassing my opponent, and holding on an objective to free an IS.
auto/las cannons take out vehicles and infantry as need be. And with 48 inch range, most, if not all, enemy models must come clsoer, giving me 1-2 turn of shooting at them...Worse case, what? Those Havocs shoot my lascannons teams? Big woop, they get pie plated next turn with my Russ or gun down with my 4 IS packing heavy weapons and special weapons as well...

I giggle with the idea of the ordo Hereictus inquisitor with Rad and psy gernades with 30 guards men that are hammerhanded, that reroll to hit and wound.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...

I'm speechless !

No, Grenade Launchers and Flamers vs the squishy scoring troops in those armies. Try to use a little sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sargow wrote:
I giggle with the idea of the ordo Hereictus inquisitor with Rad and psy gernades with 30 guards men that are hammerhanded, that reroll to hit and wound.

I've done that a bit. Didn't like it that much overall. I'd still rather shoot, and Prescience pretty much did enough in that regard.

Biophysical wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...
https://31.media.tumblr.com/89aba9eaff088217e835e9d076595483/tumblr_inline_mzo0qb5KtP1sx9thy.jpg
I'm speechless !

No, Grenade Launchers and Flamers vs the squishy scoring troops in those armies. Try to use a little sense.

I'll give you the flamers, they are good, but grenade launchers? Really? Fire Warriors have better range, cover and/or numbers. Guardians have GL-proof transports and/or numbers. Nobody cares if your 5 grenade launchers somehow manage to kill one FW or Guardian (krak round vs 4+ cover) - or scrap some termagaunts or cultists with frags. It is like fighting Plague Marines with hotshot volley guns...

 Trickstick wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Allying Scions could be fun, someone mentionned using them to threaten the enemy backfield, but having them score is even more threatning I'd say.

A 25 pts Commissar tax really isn't much to deal with to be able to do that, I think.

One thing worth mentioning is that MT and AM Commissars do not work on the other codex's units, as both need the unit to be from the same codex to execute. I think that a Scion command squad is a good buy anyway, that sniper order is awesome.

Can you give the orders to the Scions if they're allies?

Regardless, if taking a platoon of Scions allows you to ally it, might as well do it and use that.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...

I'm speechless !

Yeah, so he talks down sniper rifles that wound those things on a 4+ and rend on a 6 in favor of things that only wound some of those things on a 6, and the rifles get better range and a chance at sniping the enemy's special weapons... Oh and they cost less and can stand at a safer distance. They're not great, but they're cheap enough to be filler.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I'll give you the flamers, they are good, but grenade launchers? Really? Fire Warriors have better range, cover and/or numbers. Guardians have GL-proof transports and/or numbers. Nobody cares if your 5 grenade launchers somehow manage to kill one FW or Guardian (krak round vs 4+ cover) - or scrap some termagaunts or cultists with frags. It is like fighting Plague Marines with hotshot volley guns...

Grenade Launchers are questionable, that's why I'm thinking about them. In a SWS, they're basically the small arm. Imagine you could pay 15 points for a 2 wound Eternal Warrior guardsman with a Grenade Launcher. It's not terrible, and it's possible that enough of them can do something useful for the points. That's what I'm trying to figure out. There are changes in the meta and the codex since I last thought about them, so I'm doing it again. Anyway, the real point isn't that you really want Grenade Launchers, what you want is lots of units so the power units of the opposing army can't really stop you from doing what you want to do. You could take sniper rifles, but then you can't move, you could take flamers, but then you can't do anything unless you get close. Grenade Launchers are the other cheap option. If you're going to do an MSU swarm, SWS are the toothiest version of that approach. The line of thinking is that a big enemy unit is going to wipe a squad anyway, so why not trade a few bodies for some points and a few weapons?

Ever watched a Triptide army putting Ion Accelerator blasts into single squads of Guardsmen? It's pretty funny. When they scatter, it's freaking hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:

Yeah, so he talks down sniper rifles that wound those things on a 4+ and rend on a 6 in favor of things that only wound some of those things on a 6, and the rifles get better range and a chance at sniping the enemy's special weapons... Oh and they cost less and can stand at a safer distance. They're not great, but they're cheap enough to be filler.

Who's talking down Sniper Rifles?

Biophysical wrote:
The line of thinking is that a big enemy unit is going to wipe a squad anyway, so why not trade a few bodies for some points and a few weapons?

And exactly this is where the GL squad fails. Because the enemy will just ignore it as its abysmal damage output won't matter in the greater scheme of things. You need 5 (five!!!) krak grenades to kill 1 (one!!!) Fire Warriors. That's 25 points for 9! And you should feel lucky if you even get in range because the Fire Warrior can just blast the guardsman away from 30" and call it a day.

And taking lots of GLs won't solve the problem as it will be just even more points down in the drain that will eventually lash back to the rest of your army. Y'know, to the units that can actually do something worthwhile.

If you want S6 AP4 and blasts so badly then take an Eradicator. For the cost of 2+1/2 GL SWS you will get a whole tank with 36" range and all the S6 AP4 Large Blast (+Ignores Cover) love you would ever need!

Biophysical wrote:

Ever watched a Triptide army putting Ion Accelerator blasts into single squads of Guardsmen?

Nah. Never. Though I've seen more guardsman squads melt in pulse rifle fire than I would care to count.

Mavnas wrote:

Yeah, so he talks down sniper rifles that wound those things on a 4+ and rend on a 6 in favor of things that only wound some of those things on a 6, and the rifles get better range and a chance at sniping the enemy's special weapons... Oh and they cost less and can stand at a safer distance. They're not great, but they're cheap enough to be filler.

Who's talking down Sniper Rifles?

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The line of thinking is that a big enemy unit is going to wipe a squad anyway, so why not trade a few bodies for some points and a few weapons?

And exactly this is where the GL squad fails. Because the enemy will just ignore it as its abysmal damage output won't matter in the greater scheme of things. You need 5 (five!!!) krak grenades to kill 1 (one!!!) Fire Warriors. That's 25 points for 9! And you should feel lucky if you even get in range because the Fire Warrior can just blast the guardsman away from 30" and call it a day.

And taking lots of GLs won't solve the problem as it will be just even more points down in the drain that will eventually lash back to the rest of your army. Y'know, to the units that can actually do something worthwhile.

If you want S6 AP4 and blasts so badly then take an Eradicator. For the cost of 2+1/2 GL SWS you will get a whole tank with 36" range and all the S6 AP4 Large Blast (+Ignores Cover) love you would ever need!

Biophysical wrote:

Ever watched a Triptide army putting Ion Accelerator blasts into single squads of Guardsmen?

Nah. Never. Though I've seen more guardsman squads melt in pulse rifle fire than I would care to count.

I guess we've played against different Tau armies, then. The ones I tend to see have a ton of points in Riptides and Broadsides, with a handful of Fire Warriors that they keep hidden to keep them alive and score objectives. The Grenade Launchers just give you some range and flexibility to hit targets of opportunity. I fully concede that in the right circumstances, Flamers and Sniper Rifles are going to be optimal, but both have their own set of limitations. I don't think Grenade Launchers are great, or anything, but they can force saves on stuff in a pretty wide area of influence, while moving. Anyway, the whole point of MSU isn't offensive power, but lots of scoring units that are cheap and might occasionally do something.

Here's another approach I've been thinking about, sort of the "hunter-killer team" idea.
9 SWS with Plasma gun, Melta gun, Flamer = 540 points
3 PCS with sniper rifles + bolter = 117
6 Infantry Squads with Lascannons = 420

1077 points
18 scoring units
6 Lascannons
12 Sniper Rifles
9 Plasma Guns
9 Meltaguns
9 Flamers


It goes against everything that is preached in 40k about specialization, but it does mean that you've got a matrix of these 60 point squads that can cause damage to nearly anything. None of your capability can be knocked out all at once. Just an idea.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:
Either way, I really wish they could take camo gear so they could be a real scout squad (or that I could take 5 in s vet squad).

I'd be a fan of that.

I think the wyvern does the job of mortars and GL better, though it's not scoring.

Fun fact: least likely single shot outcome I can imagine in 40k right now is a sniper rifle stripping a hull point from a zooming Helldrake.

Mavnas wrote:
I think the wyvern does the job of mortars and GL better, though it's not scoring.

Fun fact: least likely single shot outcome I can imagine in 40k right now is a sniper rifle stripping a hull point from a zooming Helldrake.

Now imagine the Heldrake buffed with the Grimoire so it has a 3++.

I used to use sniper teams and grenade teams in my DWVs. They were cheap, but a good buff to the unit when taken in large amounts. Now that grenade launchers are equal to a guardsman, you have to question if another trooper is better or not.

Snipers are cheap, have 36' range and wound on 4+. For 138 pts I can have 12. They can be given monster hunter or ignores cover via orders, and are a troops choice. They will do one wound on a Riptide a turn, hardly OP, but annoying, and the Tau must waste 3 turns to wipe them out with the riptide.

Since you can't consolidate into new combat, string them in front of HWT, or normal squads. 6 guardsmen will die to pretty much anything in CC in one turn. Leaving your opponent in double tap FRFSRF range on your turn.

Or give them demo charges, have them rush in Tauroxes/Valks towards the Tau lines. Boom.

Ooo..

I think Sniper SWS might work well with the Aquilla? Maybe?

Razerous wrote:
Ooo..

I think Sniper SWS might work well with the Aquilla? Maybe?

(Assuming you mean Kurov's Aquila, not some weird fortification or something):

I don't think so. I think the sniper teams will usually be better served deployed separately from the bulk of your force, which is where you obviously want the Aquila to be. If the point of the snipers is to be some dopey little unit that your opponent has to either ignore or waste time and effort to kill, I think they need to be a bit farther away. By being close they can easily be part of a jetbike/beast pack multi-charge, or they can be incidental casualties of TFC or Wyvern barrages. By keeping them a bit further away, you can force the unit that kills them to be at slightly out of position to attack the rest of your firebase.

Yeah, nothing at all has changed about the grenade launcher. I don't see why it would be any more worth considering now than it was before.

At least sniper rifles MIGHT do something. Not that they're going to do much anyways.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, nothing at all has changed about the grenade launcher. I don't see why it would be any more worth considering now than it was before.

At least sniper rifles MIGHT do something. Not that they're going to do much anyways.

I do use a PCS with a vox and 3 GL, and while they don't always do something (I mostly use that PCS for order giving and objective holding, compared to my other PCS with 3 flamers for counter-assault) the fact that I do have 3 str6 AP4 shots prove worth it in my meta, where I face numerous CSM and Orks. Against their light vehicles, after autocannons and other dedicated weapons, the fact that I could manage to remove a hull point made the difference between being assaulted come next turn or having another turn to gun down the now walking Ork/CSM troopers. And in the case of an explosion results, well, they're already in pie plate formation so (small) blast away!

Well, and I can almost see a PCS like this, because PCSs are mandatory to get the platoon. Why you'd go out of your way to buy a SWS with such crummy firepower, though...

I mean, at least the PCS can take a lascannon, rather than just bouncing a few low-strength autocannon shots off of armor saves and vehicle plating.

 AtoMaki wrote:
You need 5 (five!!!) krak grenades to kill 1 (one!!!) Fire Warriors. That's 25 points for 9! And you should feel lucky if you even get in range because the Fire Warrior can just blast the guardsman away from 30" and call it a day.

At an average of 3 hits per shot, you need 4/3 frag grenades to kill 1 Fire Warrior. Not amazing, but something to consider.

GL are way to expensive for what they do, especially when you take into account the cost reduction in sniper rifles.

36" range means the MSU squads can do something pretty much every turn.

3 Sniper rifles will average 0.75 wounds per turn. 1/3 of wounds will be rends, 1/3 will be directed hits, and 1/9 will be rending directed hits.

Multiply that by 3 squads and it's 2.25 wounds from 3 separate squads. That easily has the potential to force 2 pin checks in a single turn. Not bad for 102 points of guardsmen in 3 MSU scoring units.

Against squads like fire warriors/path finders in cover in 4+ cover that will average 1.25 pin checks per turn and in 3 out of 4 turns a wound will be dumped onto the squad leader.

Against riptides and wraith knights 102 points of SWS is better than 150 points of AC HWS. Sniper rifles were built to hit T8 wraith knights, and T6 riptides have a 1/6 chance of failing a pin test.

I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

Razerous wrote:
I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

pretty sure the array doesn't count against/as a fire point.

 alarmingrick wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

pretty sure the array doesn't count against/as a fire point.

but its replaced a fire point from the last dex.

Razerous wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

pretty sure the array doesn't count against/as a fire point.

but its replaced a fire point from the last dex.

Oh, derp! My bad, I gotcha.