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 milkboy wrote:
Just curious, nosferatu and rigeld, do you guys play it that Celestine cannot come back after a sweeping advance?

I do. Same as Yarrick, and Justicar Thawn.

It's never an issue for Yarrick and Thawn, fearless and ATSKNF sees to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So for them the battle isn't over? You've rescued the unit, despite the rules stating this is not possible unless your rule specifies it works, and your rule specifies...nope, no specification there!

Correct raw answer has been given all along, Sigvatr et al are simply ignoring written, clear as anything rules to allow el to operate.

e's not ignoring anything he simply doesn't share your broad ranging interpretation of "cannot be saved".

I don't see how the unit being removed as casualties, which is what happens here, constitutes being saved from the sweeping advance.
Nor do I see Ever Living as interfering with that when it, as normal, allows the IC to return from the dead.

I've not seen any rules presented that support your case that the cannot be saved clause extends beyond the Sweeping Advance.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I don't see how the unit being removed as casualties, which is what happens here, constitutes being saved from the sweeping advance.

It's putting them back on the table that saves them, and with them back on the table obviously the battle is not over.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Your wrong interpretation of the rules doesn't get "rightier" the louder you shout / the more often you repeat it. You had your argumentation laid out, it couldn't hold up, that's it.

You are under the impression that after the first SA in a 40k game appears, it and its sub-clasues are valid for the rest of the entire game - which is downright wrong. Obviously.

Lol.

So, "at this stage" being defined as "battle" means you get to bring the unit back at the end if the phase? Because what, necrons are special?

The unit was rescued. For them, the battle is not over. And you did it ALL using a special rule, when specifically told you need explicit statements to allow that to occur.


Your argument has failed since the very begijnnning, and it's just getting worse. Please mark as "hywpi" since you cannot comply with the forum tenets, ever, in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I don't see how the unit being removed as casualties, which is what happens here, constitutes being saved from the sweeping advance.

It's putting them back on the table that saves them, and with them back on the table obviously the battle is not over.

Even more, it absolutely rescues them - it isn't even a "save" , but rescue that you are prohibited from doing.

This rule is remarkably clear for GW, yet some will still ignore key phrases and pretend they're not there.

 milkboy wrote:
Just curious, nosferatu and rigeld, do you guys play it that Celestine cannot come back after a sweeping advance?

Never come up, but I would.

I'm still waiting for anything other than a personal opinion on what constitutes a unit being saved or rescued.
I'd also be interestedin something that shows that Ever Living stops the unit being removed as casulaties by sweeping advance, which is the actual prohibition. If you can show something that says they can't come back later that would be good.
This would also clarify what happens to a unit that goes into ongoing reserve when it is removed as a casualty or are you saying that can't happen either ?

Rule quotes, there's a good chap.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I'm still waiting for anything other than a personal opinion on what constitutes a unit being saved or rescued.

Rule quotes, there's a good chap.

I'm still waiting for a rules based definition of the word "a" and "the".
Care to oblige?

So you're admitting there is no rules support for you position ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
So you're admitting there is no rules support for you position ?

Absolutely not.
Some words we have to use a normal English definition.
If a unit isn't in the game, and then suddenly is, was it saved? What would you call it?

If a unit isn't in the game and then suddenly it is I'd call that resurrection, if it never left the game on the first place I'd call that being saved.

An armour save saves a wound, It will Not Die lets you "regrow" a lost wound, but it isn't saved.

But really the key is not whether it was saved or not but rather saved from what and when.

"It cannot be saved at this stage" reads to me that you cannot be saved from being removed as a casualty by the sweeping advance.

Necron and units that go into ongoing reserve when they are destroyed have the ability to return which in no way saves from them being removed as a casualty by a sweeping advance, in fact both abilities rely on being removed as a casualty.

This all make me wonder about something

Units that are removed as a casualty as per the removed as a casualty explanation on pg15 don't have that little "the battle is over" clause as such they are dead but still part of the game where a unit killed by a sweeping advance does have that. Now in purge the alien Victory Points are the last thing you calculate at the end of the game by calculating units the have been completely destroyed etc. So if a unit is removed from a sweeping advance on turn 3 then that means "The battle is over for this unit". Seeing as the unit ceased to be part of the battle on turn three how can you include it when calculating VP at the end of turn 5,6 or 7?

Note that the words game and battle seem to be used interchangeably throughout the whole rule book.

Hinging a rules interpretation on a few words of hyperbole is a slippery slope indeed.

Stage is , contextually, the rest of the battle, which is the rest of the game.

Found a rules permission to allow your unit to be rescued? You're concentrating on "save" , whistle ignoring other words there.

Your unit was dead, gone. Wiped out. Suddenly the unit is there again. The units was, without a doubt, rescued in some way. Rule broken.

How does "at THIS stage" in a rule about sweeping advance contextually apply to the rest of the battle?
How does "cannot be rescued" in a rule about sweeping advance extend beyond being rescued from the sweeping advance?

The whole issue really comes down to how you interpret the phrases in the descriptor and you really can't say definitely which one is correct, although I am sure you will try to insist your reading is the only one.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How does "at THIS stage" in a rule about sweeping advance contextually apply to the rest of the battle?

How does "cannot be rescued" in a rule about sweeping advance extend beyond being rescued from the sweeping advance?

"For them the BATTLE Is over ".

So stage is linked to battle. Hmm, I wonder what that gives as a context....

Otherwise, page and para as to exactly what that stage is, if you're going to. Ignore half the sentence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Your wrong interpretation of the rules doesn't get "rightier" the louder you shout / the more often you repeat it. You had your argumentation laid out, it couldn't hold up, that's it.

You are under the impression that after the first SA in a 40k game appears, it and its sub-clasues are valid for the rest of the entire game - which is downright wrong. Obviously.

Lol.

So, "at this stage" being defined as "battle" means you get to bring the unit back at the end if the phase? Because what, necrons are special?

The unit was rescued. For them, the battle is not over. And you did it ALL using a special rule, when specifically told you need explicit statements to allow that to occur.


Your argument has failed since the very begijnnning, and it's just getting worse. Please mark as "hywpi" since you cannot comply with the forum tenets, ever, in this thread.

Since....3 or 4 pages, you have done absolutely nothing instead of repeating the same, wrong, stuff over and over again, admitting to a lack of general knowledge of basic rules and to bend the rules as much and as hard as you could to somehow justify your wrong interpretation of the rules. The exact RAW definition of this problem, as in SA never conflicting with EL due to EL not saving a unit from being destroyed, has been given over and over again.

It's really simple. Does EL save the unit from being destroyed? No. The unit is removed from play. It says so right there. Do the rules therefore conflict? No.

Could you please start your posts with a [HYWPI]? It would make understanding actual rules a lot easier for others reading your posts. Thanks in advance.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How does "at THIS stage" in a rule about sweeping advance contextually apply to the rest of the battle?

How does "cannot be rescued" in a rule about sweeping advance extend beyond being rescued from the sweeping advance?

"For them the BATTLE Is over ".

So stage is linked to battle. Hmm, I wonder what that gives as a context....

Otherwise, page and para as to exactly what that stage is, if you're going to. Ignore half the sentence.

"For them the battle is over" ? which battle? The battle in general or the close combat battle that has now been concluded with the sweeping advance?

I wonder how the majority of players interpret it. Perhaps this is the time for a poll.

 milkboy wrote:
I wonder how the majority of players interpret it. Perhaps this is the time for a poll.

Do put up one if you wish. I'll keep interpreting it as it has been interpreted since the previous Necron codex with We'll Be Back, which was even given as an example of special rules unable to help against SA in the 4th rulebook. Swept = not coming back.

Celestine could conceivably be swept too, but you need to remove her Fearless first and then hit her hard enough.

The current WBB rule, as in RP, still specifically mentions the unit not coming back after being swept

Everliving is a new rule that works differently, that's the reason for the confusion.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How does "at THIS stage" in a rule about sweeping advance contextually apply to the rest of the battle?

How does "cannot be rescued" in a rule about sweeping advance extend beyond being rescued from the sweeping advance?

"For them the BATTLE Is over ".

So stage is linked to battle. Hmm, I wonder what that gives as a context....

Otherwise, page and para as to exactly what that stage is, if you're going to. Ignore half the sentence.

"For them the battle is over" ? which battle? The battle in general or the close combat battle that has now been concluded with the sweeping advance?

No offense but when you have to resort to logic like this to support your stance, you are truly grasping.

My biggest contention with the pro-EL stance is there has not been a convincing argument as to why EL gets to ignore the statement in the SA rule about the battle being over for the victim. Does EL work against destroyer weapons? No, it does not, but here still the model is removed as a casualty, so just because EL works when removed as a casualty in general doesn't automatically override rules that make specific exceptions like SA.

Have a read of the rules for frag grenades mate, the bit where they talk about an assault being a battle.

As for weakness of argument it isn't me who says descriptive text overides rules.

Hardly what I would call conclusive.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Have a read of the rules for frag grenades mate, the bit where they talk about an assault being a battle.

As for weakness of argument it isn't me who says descriptive text overides rules.

And the whole game is defined as a battle.

It's part of the rules text. You're the one ignoring "at this stage" meaning "rest of game", as it is the whole battle.

Sig - nope, up you have rescued the unit, as the unit was removed, and now it isn't. EL is a model,not unit based rule. Your inability to distinguish the toe is telling.

I assume you still won't apologise for the lies or accusations of bias as I apparently dislike necrons? Or does that not count?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Have a read of the rules for frag grenades mate, the bit where they talk about an assault being a battle.

As for weakness of argument it isn't me who says descriptive text overides rules.

And the whole game is defined as a battle.

It's part of the rules text. You're the one ignoring "at this stage" meaning "rest of game", as it is the whole battle.

I'm not ignoring anything I'm saying your position is an unsubstantiated assumption of the meaning of "battle"."
You're also saying "at this stage" refers to an undefined remainder when by basic English "at this stage" refers to a discreet moment in time. "at any stage" or "at any future stage" would be the terms that might refer to the rest of the game.

From Page 61 :
"Assault grenades, like the ubiquitous frag grenade, can be
hurled at the enemy as your warriors charge into battle. The
lethal storm of shrapnel from these grenades drives opponents
further under cover for a few precious moments, allowing
attackers more time to close in and, hopefully, get the first blow
in against a disoriented foe."

Clearly in this case "battle" refers to a close combat, clearly "battle" doesn't always mean the entire game, sometimes it can refer to the assault phase, including the sweeping advance portion of it.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Have a read of the rules for frag grenades mate, the bit where they talk about an assault being a battle.

As for weakness of argument it isn't me who says descriptive text overides rules.

And the whole game is defined as a battle.

It's part of the rules text. You're the one ignoring "at this stage" meaning "rest of game", as it is the whole battle.

I'm not ignoring anything I'm saying your position is an unsubstantiated assumption of the meaning of "battle"."
You're also saying "at this stage" refers to an undefined remainder when by basic English "at this stage" refers to a discreet moment in time. "at any stage" or "at any future stage" would be the terms that might refer to the rest of the game.

From Page 61 :
"Assault grenades, like the ubiquitous frag grenade, can be
hurled at the enemy as your warriors charge into battle. The
lethal storm of shrapnel from these grenades drives opponents
further under cover for a few precious moments, allowing
attackers more time to close in and, hopefully, get the first blow
in against a disoriented foe."

Clearly in this case "battle" refers to a close combat, clearly "battle" doesn't always mean the entire game, sometimes it can refer to the assault phase, including the sweeping advance portion of it.

This is a case of "fluff is not RaW".
Unless you are assuming frag grenades give the enemy +1 to cover, the "Always strike first" rule and you can actually throw stones at your opponent's models for the "can be
hurled at the enemy" part?

It's been a long time since any RAW was mentioned in this discussion.

Odd, Ive been discussing RAW all along. I;m not ignoring the "no special rule" part, ignoring the word "rescue" - or considering that a unit being returned is SOMEHOW *not* rescuing the unit, which is a bizarre interpretation - or that "for them, the battle is over" isnt a pretty damn clear instruction on what the unit is allowed to do for the rest of the battle - absolutely nothing.

Unless like Sigvatr you are claiming that an EL model returnign is somehow a new unit?

No just that Ever Living returning a model from the dead breaks none of the prohibitions of the Sweeping Advance rule.

Returning from the dead isn't rescuing the unit from the sweeping advance. The unit is still removed as casualties by the advance and the combat (battle if you will) is over.

You've chosen to ignore the caveat of "at this stage" and what is bizarre is the ongoing insistence that "at this stage" means "rest of the game" rather than "at this particular point in time" which is what "at this stage" means.

"Are you going to the concert Bob?"
"Not at this stage Ken"

Doesn't mean that Bob is absolutely not going to the concert, there is nothing absolute about "at this stage" beyond what is happening now.

Apart from that UNIT taking any further part in the battle, battle defined as the game using rules, not the fluff you keep thinking is relevant.

Your bizarre ruleless argument is done. Please mark as HYPWI, as you cannot actually cite relevant rules, just an ongoing ignorance of them.