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 Happyjew wrote:

Counterpoint - EL does not mention SA. At all. Otherwise someone would have pointed to where it is.

So EL doesn't SAVE the Cryptek from anything, as has been stated. In the the Sweeping Advance stage of the Assault Phase, the Cryptek dies.

A couple steps later, when the Assault Phase ends, his Ever Living rule kicks in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
P.S. Point 5 - In the context of the section of the book, "at this stage" is a clear reference to the "Sweeping Advance" stage. The next stage is "End of Combat Pile In", followed by "Consolidation"

So, Sweeping Advance happens 2 FULL STEPS ahead of the end of the Assault Phase, which is where Ever Living is performed.

P.S. Counterpoint - the only change made in SA is that after 4th edition they dropped the line about WBB (a Necron special rule similar to RP/EL except it happened even later game-wise) as an example of a rule that didn't work.

This is not a Counterpoint. It is a statement about 4th edition rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Point 2 - Rules in codices trump the rules in BRB.
Counterpoint - only when there is a conflict. There is no conflict.

Agreed...I see no conflict whatsoever with a Cryptek dying from a Sweeping Advance with no saves allowed, and the Ever Living rule that kicks in a couple steps later at the end of the Assault Phase.

 Happyjew wrote:
Point 3 - The actual fluff section you are quoting starts with "Unless otherwise specified...". Ever Living (a special rule from the codex that trumps this rule anyways) counts as "otherwise specified".
Counterpoint - EL does not mention SA. At all. Otherwise someone would have pointed to where it is.

Agreed, nor does it have to. It starts with "If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty..." Check, there is your Otherwise Specified, unless you want to argue that removing the model due to SA is not the same as being removed as a casualty. It's a moot point anyway, because the model was already destroyed by SA well before the end of the Assault Phase...with no saves allowed.

 Happyjew wrote:
Point 4 - This has already been FAQ'd
"Q: If an entire unit. including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol roll?
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out."
Counterpoint - That still does not specify EL works against SA. Therefore it does not.

Disagree...if being wiped out by a Sweeping Advance does not constitute being "wiped out", then I would conced this point to you, but it does, so I wont

@rigeld2: I'll play. No they were not saved.

 Happyjew wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
P.S. Point 5 - In the context of the section of the book, "at this stage" is a clear reference to the "Sweeping Advance" stage. The next stage is "End of Combat Pile In", followed by "Consolidation"

So, Sweeping Advance happens 2 FULL STEPS ahead of the end of the Assault Phase, which is where Ever Living is performed.

P.S. Counterpoint - the only change made in SA is that after 4th edition they dropped the line about WBB (a Necron special rule similar to RP/EL except it happened even later game-wise) as an example of a rule that didn't work.

From 5th to 6th, SA was changed to explicitely state that swept models are removed as casualties.

Jasper has already pointed out several rules, and a faq illustrating his point. You cannot twist words and try to nitpick things to make the rules work your way. We've gone from nitpicking unit vs model, saved vs resurrected now to nitpicking words in the rules and bold type. Losing. Just plain losing.

Adding my final thoughts on this subject.

Necron codex 5th ed:
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty.."

The rules for Ever-living and Reanimation protocols are different enough that there's a clear intent for them to be working in a different manner.

The wording of the rule does not take into account if the unit this IC was attached to was swept (SA). It doesn't have to.

BRB 5th ed:
"The falling back unit is destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Going by RAW, in 5th edition SA does prevent EL. I suspect the intent to have been something else.

BRB 6th ed:
"..unit is caught by the Sweeping Advance and destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Keyword to me is that xx is removed as a casualty, which then allows for EL to trigger later.

Fluffwise:
It's pretty damn cool to have the character keep going and going and going.

Gamewise:
I utterly hate that 50% chance of getting back up.

And yes, it has been FAQ'ed.

The unit was removed as a casualty. It is the UNIT that cannot be rescued.

Yet you are doing exactly that. Unit A was destroyed. Unit A is no longer destroyed. It was rescued from a state of destruction.

For them, the battle is not over. Rule broken. No cries of "but fluff!" Will get around that.

As ever the EL "side" ignore rules to try to justify cheating.

Sig- which had no change to the timing of WBB vs SA, which was the comparison being made. The point being any argument saying "but X happens after SA so is allowed" fails due to this comparable point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naw - the FAQ is less specific than Sa, so SA wins out. Again, people seem to have a real problem understanding specific, and what it means. Atsknf is your best comparator there - THAT is what specific means.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit was removed as a casualty. It is the UNIT that cannot be rescued.

Yet you are doing exactly that. Unit A was destroyed. Unit A is no longer destroyed. It was rescued from a state of destruction.

For them, the battle is not over. Rule broken. No cries of "but fluff!" Will get around that.

As ever the EL "side" ignore rules to try to justify cheating.

Sig- which had no change to the timing of WBB vs SA, which was the comparison being made. The point being any argument saying "but X happens after SA so is allowed" fails due to this comparable point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naw - the FAQ is less specific than Sa, so SA wins out. Again, people seem to have a real problem understanding specific, and what it means. Atsknf is your best comparator there - THAT is what specific means.

Nope. As has been said so many times now, the unit is destroyed by the sweeping advance. They are not saved, nor are they rescued. If they are, why are they removed from the game as casualties?

Ever Living kicks in 2 steps later after the assault phase is concluded, and is taken for models with the rule that have expressly NOT been saved or rescued by the SA..,.they were destroyed by the SA and removed from the table.

The FAQ clearly states what to do if an entire unit is "wiped out". If Sweeping Advance does not "wipe out" a unit, I don't know what does.

Naw wrote:
Adding my final thoughts on this subject.

Necron codex 5th ed:
"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty.."

The rules for Ever-living and Reanimation protocols are different enough that there's a clear intent for them to be working in a different manner.

The wording of the rule does not take into account if the unit this IC was attached to was swept (SA). It doesn't have to.

BRB 5th ed:
"The falling back unit is destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Going by RAW, in 5th edition SA does prevent EL. I suspect the intent to have been something else.

BRB 6th ed:
"..unit is caught by the Sweeping Advance and destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Keyword to me is that xx is removed as a casualty, which then allows for EL to trigger later.

Fluffwise:
It's pretty damn cool to have the character keep going and going and going.

Gamewise:
I utterly hate that 50% chance of getting back up.

And yes, it has been FAQ'ed.

I quote you but it's valid for all: the six words"for them the battle is over" are what is stopping anything coming back to the table until your next game, where all of your army is reset.

As for the above comparison between the 5th ed and 6th ed, i see no difference, and as you agree 5th ed remove EL, then so does 6th ed.
5th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
6th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
Spot the difference? If they wanted the "as a casualty" from 5th ed. Codex to work with the "as a casualty" from 6th ed. BrB, then they would have put it in the FaQ: "Ever-living counters can be placed after a sweeping advance" for example.

Fluffwise:
Swiping advance is "its members are left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best, fleeing and hiding"
Your ever-living lord will get up! but he is now mine

Gamewise: why would you be able to contest an objective on the last turn and win the game? if you want a 50% chance of wining a game, toss a coin rather than playing... I'll go for the "play by the rules" any day.

Naw wrote:

Gamewise:
I utterly hate that 50% chance of getting back up.

There's a hard counter for this. If possible, in the Consolidation stage of thr Assault Phase, position your models within a 3" radius of the Ever Living counter, so that no model could be placed without being an inch from one of your models. The Ever Living model will not be able to find a place to reanimate.

 jasper76 wrote:

Naw wrote:

Gamewise:
I utterly hate that 50% chance of getting back up.

There's a hard counter for this. If possible, in the Consolidation stage of thr Assault Phase, position your models within a 3" radius of the Ever Living counter, so that no model could be placed without being an inch from one of your models. The Ever Living model will not be able to find a place to reanimate.

Did you know than you can play an army that is only Kroot, and you can block the enemy reserve side completely so that his reserves are destroyed when coming on the board?
Do you want to play Kroot?

I personally prefer using my own army, where enemy reserves can come on the board, and Swept Ever-Living lords don't get back up...

 BlackTalos wrote:

As for the above comparison between the 5th ed and 6th ed, i see no difference, and as you agree 5th ed remove EL, then so does 6th ed.
5th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
6th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
Spot the difference? If they wanted the "as a casualty" from 5th ed. Codex to work with the "as a casualty" from 6th ed. BrB, then they would have put it in the FaQ: "Ever-living counters can be placed after a sweeping advance" for example.

The phrase "at this stage" nullifies this argument. "At this stage" is a clear reference to the Sweeping Advance stage of the Assault Phase. Ever Living doesn't save anyone from a Sweeping Advance.

Then you go to the End of Pile In stage.

Then you go to the Consolidation stage.

Then, (and we are well done with any Sweeping Advances at this point) after all assaults have been resolved on the board, you go to your Reanimation Protocols and Ever Living, to bring models who were clearly NOT saved or rescued (they are dead after all) back on the board.

Plus, as has been said, this has been FAQ'd...what happens when an entire unit is "wiped out"

 BlackTalos wrote:

I personally prefer using my own army, where enemy reserves can come on the board, and Swept Ever-Living lords don't get back up...

Don't play against Necrons, and you'll never have to see it happen! .

You have a rules quote to back up your concept of "stage"? You have a rules quote to allow you to change the stage?
You have a rules quote to allow the unit to continue, despite the battle being over?

No? Then mark as "hywpi", as per the tenets of this forum

 jasper76 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

As for the above comparison between the 5th ed and 6th ed, i see no difference, and as you agree 5th ed remove EL, then so does 6th ed.
5th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
6th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
Spot the difference? If they wanted the "as a casualty" from 5th ed. Codex to work with the "as a casualty" from 6th ed. BrB, then they would have put it in the FaQ: "Ever-living counters can be placed after a sweeping advance" for example.

The phrase "at this stage" nullifies this argument. "At this stage" is a clear reference to the Sweeping Advance stage of the Assault Phase. Ever Living doesn't save anyone from a Sweeping Advance.

Wait, what?

Naw wrote:
Adding my final thoughts on this subject.
BRB 5th ed:
"The falling back unit is destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Going by RAW, in 5th edition SA does prevent EL. I suspect the intent to have been something else.

BRB 6th ed:
"..unit is caught by the Sweeping Advance and destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Both BRB say "at this stage", they are the exact same rules...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to back up your concept of "stage"?

Don't need one. Since 40k has no "stages", I suppose my interpretation is as good as anyone elses.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to allow you to change the stage?

Don't need one...I never mentioned changing stages.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to allow the unit to continue, despite the battle being over?

Yes. I have presented a rule from the Necron codex, as well as an FAQ, both of which count as "Unless otherwise specified"

Look up Ever Living. It tells you exactly what to do when a model with it is removed as a casualty (the result of a Sweeping Advance). You lay down an Ever Living marker and remove the destroyed model from the game (the model ws destroyed by a sweeping advance). Later, at the end of the Assault Phase (after Sweeping Advances and the destruction they have caused are done), there is a chance for the model or models with this rule to return to the board. You'd have to pretend that the Sweeping Advance does not remove models as casualties if you do not want to lay down the Ever Living counter. The Ever Living counter does absolutely nothing to save or rescue the unit from a sweeping advance.

Look up the FAQ. It tells you exactly what to do when a unit is "wiped out". You'd have to pretend that a Sweeping Advance does not "wipe out" a unit in order to ignore this FAQ.

So, you're work is still ahead of you. Please convince me that (a) a Sweeping Advance does not remove models as casualties, and (b) Sweeping Advance does not "wipe out" a unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

As for the above comparison between the 5th ed and 6th ed, i see no difference, and as you agree 5th ed remove EL, then so does 6th ed.
5th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
6th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
Spot the difference? If they wanted the "as a casualty" from 5th ed. Codex to work with the "as a casualty" from 6th ed. BrB, then they would have put it in the FaQ: "Ever-living counters can be placed after a sweeping advance" for example.

The phrase "at this stage" nullifies this argument. "At this stage" is a clear reference to the Sweeping Advance stage of the Assault Phase. Ever Living doesn't save anyone from a Sweeping Advance.

Wait, what?

Naw wrote:
Adding my final thoughts on this subject.
BRB 5th ed:
"The falling back unit is destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Going by RAW, in 5th edition SA does prevent EL. I suspect the intent to have been something else.

BRB 6th ed:
"..unit is caught by the Sweeping Advance and destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Both BRB say "at this stage", they are the exact same rules...

Since we are going this route:
BRB 4th edition:
...or other special rule (such as the Necron's We'll Be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage;...

So for the last 3 editions (possibly 4, don't have a copy of 3rd ed rule book) has used the phrase "at this stage", including where they even mention a special rule that takes place even later in the game then RP/EL.

If some people want to go down the "previous editions" rule (- I was just pointing out that you can't say EL wouldn't happen for 5th but 6th it now does -) then all I can say is that RAI, they would have specifically given Ever-Living a clause against Sweeping advance, because that rule has been (it now seems) present for the past 3 editions.
It would simply need 9 words: "You can place a counter after a Sweeping Advance"

I would also point out that Tenet 2 ~~sort of~~ says we have to stick with 6th Ed. only...

 BlackTalos wrote:
It would simply need 9 words: "You can place a counter after a Sweeping Advance"

It does do that. Sweeping Advances remove all models in a unit as casualties. The first sentence of the Ever Living rule starts"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty..."

You'd have to pretend that the model was NOT removed as a casualty if you wanted to prevent the Ever Living counter from being laid down...the Ever Living counter does not prevent, save, or rescue anything from the sweeping advance.

 jasper76 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It would simply need 9 words: "You can place a counter after a Sweeping Advance"

It does do that. Sweeping Advances remove all models in a unit as casualties. The first sentence of the Ever Living rule starts"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty..."

You'd have to pretend that the model was NOT removed as a casualty if you wanted to prevent the Ever Living counter from being laid down...the Ever Living counter does not prevent, save, or rescue anything from the sweeping advance.

I do not deny that SA is removing casualties, and that it would then enable the EL rule. However the SA rule has 6 words at the very end, counted as rules by the semi-colon right before them: "for them the battle is over"

By replacing a model on the table 1, 2 or 6 turns later, you will break that rule.

Correct me here, but i do believe that fleeing off the table counts as "casualties" too? Do you get an EL counter then?

So you're argument is hanging on fluff after a semi-colon meant to make Sweeping Advance sound scary?

On top of that, EL trumps that little phrase. It is an explicit example of "Unless otherwise specified", and I'll show you how.

Sweeping Advance specifically states that the unit is "removed as casualties". Ever Living states specifically what to do when a model is "removed as a casualty", so for characters with Ever Living, there is a specific instance of "Unless otherwise specified" that means "for them, the battle might not be over".

And there is a very concisely phrased FAQ backing up my position.

As for felling off the table, after you make your movement off the table, it will not be possible to place an Ever Living marker. You'd have to place it off the table. I don't have Rulebook on me atm, so I could be wrong about the final movement off the table being a "movement" as such.

Please understand how a semi-colon works. That line is not fluff, it's the SA rules being very specific. If you believe that the line is fluff, then i cannot help you any further...

Also, "otherwise specified", as i have said before, means your rule need to include the words "Sweeping Advance" in order to specifically refer to the rule.
If you need examples, check the "Smash" rule, which specifies its relation to the "Hammer of Wrath" rule. There are many more i could list.

Lastly, my reference to falling back of the table is because it can happen at the exact same time as Sweeping advance: If you loose your Initiative battle, you are swept.
If you win your I Battle, you fall back.
They both happen before anything else happens. In one you can place an EL counter (falling back), but in the other you can't (Sweeping Advance).
Unless, as per my reference, you are very close to your table edge, in which case both will not allow EL. - And in both cases you are "removed as casualties" - so in your opinion, always EL.

 jasper76 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to back up your concept of "stage"?

Don't need one. Since 40k has no "stages", I suppose my interpretation is as good as anyone elses.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to allow you to change the stage?

Don't need one...I never mentioned changing stages.

This is amusing.

"Of course the stage changes! Not that I ever said that it does!"

 BlackTalos wrote:
Please understand how a semi-colon works. That line is not fluff, it's the SA rules being very specific. If you believe that the line is fluff, then i cannot help you any further...

I'll grant you this so we can move on.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also, "otherwise specified", as i have said before, means your rule need to include the words "Sweeping Advance" in order to specifically refer to the rule.
If you need examples, check the "Smash" rule, which specifies its relation to the "Hammer of Wrath" rule. There are many more i could list.

I reject the premise of this argument. "Unless otherwise specified" means "Unless otherwise specified" (it does NOT say "unless otherwise specified by a rule that specifically states that it applies to a Sweeping Advance").

At this point, I'm not looking for examples. I'd like to see explicitly in rules how Ever Living, the rule itself and also the clarifying FAQ, does not count as "Unless otherwise specified".

 BlackTalos wrote:
Lastly, my reference to falling back of the table is because it can happen at the exact same time as Sweeping advance: If you loose your Initiative battle, you are swept.
If you win your I Battle, you fall back.
They both happen before anything else happens. In one you can place an EL counter (falling back), but in the other you can't (Sweeping Advance).
Unless, as per my reference, you are very close to your table edge, in which case both will not allow EL. - And in both cases you are "removed as casualties" - so in your opinion, always EL.

I'm not going to delve into this issue any furhter until I have a chance to read the Falling Back rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to back up your concept of "stage"?

Don't need one. Since 40k has no "stages", I suppose my interpretation is as good as anyone elses.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have a rules quote to allow you to change the stage?

Don't need one...I never mentioned changing stages.

This is amusing.

"Of course the stage changes! Not that I ever said that it does!"

Fair enough. The word "stage" has no enforcing rules, so this is kind of a moot point. I'd be happy to roll off on whether Sweeping Advance, Consolidation and so forth are "stages" of the Assault Phase or not. It seems clear to me athat they are, but I can't point to a rule, so both of our interpretations of what it means are equally valid.

In any case, I'm glad at least that it appears that we've come to an agreement that the unit is not "saved" or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance by laying down an Ever Living counter.

 jasper76 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Please understand how a semi-colon works. That line is not fluff, it's the SA rules being very specific. If you believe that the line is fluff, then i cannot help you any further...

I'll grant you this so we can move on.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also, "otherwise specified", as i have said before, means your rule need to include the words "Sweeping Advance" in order to specifically refer to the rule.
If you need examples, check the "Smash" rule, which specifies its relation to the "Hammer of Wrath" rule. There are many more i could list.

I reject the premise of this argument. "Unless otherwise specified" means "Unless otherwise specified" (it does NOT say "unless otherwise specified by a rule that specifically states that it applies to a Sweeping Advance").

At this point, I'm not looking for examples. I'd like to see explicitly in rules how Ever Living, the rule itself and also the clarifying FAQ, does not count as "Unless otherwise specified".

Specified. I'll assume I don't need to define this word for you.
Where, specifically, does EL say otherwise (meaning, where does it say that it can save the unit from SA)?

In any case, I'm glad at least that it appears that we've come to an agreement that the unit is not "saved" or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance by laying down an Ever Living counter.

No, we haven't.
You're attempting to save the unit. Using a special rule. That doesn't specify it's allowed to bring you back from SA.

rigeld2 wrote:
Where, specifically, does EL say otherwise (meaning, where does it say that it can save the unit from SA)?

OK, one more time...the SA rule specifically says that the unit is removed as casualties. The Ever Living rule tells you specifically what to do when a model with the rule is removed as a casualty.

rigeld2 wrote:

In any case, I'm glad at least that it appears that we've come to an agreement that the unit is not "saved" or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance by laying down an Ever Living counter.

No, we haven't.
You're attempting to save the unit. Using a special rule. That doesn't specify it's allowed to bring you back from SA.

Nope. I am not attempting to save a unit. The unit was not saved at all, they were killed dead by the sweeping advance.

To reiterate:

(a) after CC, the enemy performs a sweeping advance on your unit.
IS THE UNIT SAVED FROM SA? No
(b) your unit is killed by the Sweeping advance
IS THE UNIT SAVED FROM SA? No, it got killed by the Sweeping Advance.
(c) you place an Ever Living marker in place of a Cryptek, and remove him from the board as a casualty along with the rest of the unit
IS THE UNIT SAVED FROM SA? No, it got killed by the Sweeping Advance. See (b)
(d) after all assaults are resolved, you roll for the Ever Living counter.
IS THE UNIT SAVED FROM SA? No, it got killed by the Sweeping Advance. See (b)
(e) lets say you successfully roll your Ever Living counter. The model is placed within 3 inches of the counter
IS THE UNIT SAVED FROM SA? No, it got killed by the Sweeping Advance. See (b)

You keep skipping (b) man. You were skipping it yesterday, and you ares till skipping it today.

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Where, specifically, does EL say otherwise (meaning, where does it say that it can save the unit from SA)?

OK, one more time...the SA rule specifically says that the unit is removed as casualties. The Ever Living rule tells you specifically what to do when a model with the rule is removed as a casualty.

Obviously I do need to define what specify means.

Specify - identify clearly and definitely.

SA says "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
So if you're trying to use a special rule to rescue the unit, it must specify otherwise.
Just saying "Rescue the unit." doesn't work. It has to say "Rescue the unit, including from any SA result."

Nope. I am not attempting to save a unit. The unit was not saved at all, they were killed dead by the sweeping advance.

Yes, they were. However, SA doesn't just say to kill the unit. It says they cannot be rescued.

(c) you place an Ever Living marker in place of a Cryptek, and remove him from the board as a casualty along with the rest of the unit

(e) lets say you successfully roll your Ever Living counter. The model is placed within 3 inches of the counter

Two separate times you're attempting to rescue the unit using a special rule that never specifies it can be used to rescue from SA.

You keep skipping (b) man. You were skipping it yesterday, and you ares till skipping it today.

No, I'm not. Stop assuming I am and you might understand the argument I'm making.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Where, specifically, does EL say otherwise (meaning, where does it say that it can save the unit from SA)?

OK, one more time...the SA rule specifically says that the unit is removed as casualties. The Ever Living rule tells you specifically what to do when a model with the rule is removed as a casualty.

Obviously I do need to define what specify means.

Specify - identify clearly and definitely.

SA says "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
So if you're trying to use a special rule to rescue the unit, it must specify otherwise.
Just saying "Rescue the unit." doesn't work. It has to say "Rescue the unit, including from any SA result."

Dude, noone is arguing that the unit is saved from the SA. They are explicitly NOT saved by the SA. They die from it. You keep skipping the plain fact that the unit is actually destroyed by the SA.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

Nope. I am not attempting to save a unit. The unit was not saved at all, they were killed dead by the sweeping advance.

Yes, they were. However, SA doesn't just say to kill the unit. It says they cannot be rescued.

(c) you place an Ever Living marker in place of a Cryptek, and remove him from the board as a casualty along with the rest of the unit

(e) lets say you successfully roll your Ever Living counter. The model is placed within 3 inches of the counter

Two separate times you're attempting to rescue the unit using a special rule that never specifies it can be used to rescue from SA.

Noone is arguing that the unit is rescued from the SA. They are explicitly NOT rescued from the SA; they die from it. You keep skipping the plain fact that the unit is actually destroyed by the SA.

rigeld2 wrote:

You keep skipping (b) man. You were skipping it yesterday, and you ares till skipping it today.

No, I'm not. Stop assuming I am and you might understand the argument I'm making.

 jasper76 wrote:
But you are. I am not assuming anything. You are saying that the unit is "saved" and/or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance, when they are clearly 100% NOT saved or rescued. If they are, why are they taken off the board as casualties?

Because you're attempting to put them back on.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
But you are. I am not assuming anything. You are saying that the unit is "saved" and/or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance, when they are clearly 100% NOT saved or rescued. If they are, why are they taken off the board as casualties?

Because you're attempting to put them back on.

Yup, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the SA.

All I did after the SA was lay down a EL marker. That doesn't save or rescue the unit from the SA at all.

If you are so concrete-footed about this issue, please explain how laying down a marker AFTER THE UNIT IS DESTROYED saves the unit from being destroyed. It doesn't make senese.

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
But you are. I am not assuming anything. You are saying that the unit is "saved" and/or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance, when they are clearly 100% NOT saved or rescued. If they are, why are they taken off the board as casualties?

Because you're attempting to put them back on.

Yup, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the SA.

All I did after the SA was lay down a EL marker. That doesn't save or rescue the unit from the SA at all.

If you are so concrete-footed about this issue, please explain how laying down a marker AFTER THE UNIT IS DESTROYED saves the unit from being destroyed. It doesn't make senese.

Because when the unit is placed back on the table you've rescued it from being destroyed. Meaning that placing the marker is an attempt to save the unit from being destroyed.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but you ignored it then as well.

So far the only solid rules presentation I have seen has been from Jasper. It has been FAQ'ed. He showed this. He has presented how the resolution of SA according the BRB is. Once again the argument against EL after SA comes from trying to over think the semantics and try to construe wording to make the argument valid. You cannot do this. There is a FAQ. Period. End of story.

Rigeld2 you ARE skipping step (b). Everything is about that step of the phase, and you continue to argue around that point for whatever reason. That step is the nail in the coffin. Killed=removed as a casualty. The fact that EL triggers at the END OF THE PHASE should shut your argument down. You are trying to argue a point that has been proven. It's like trying to argue whether the rain is wet or not. For you, the battle is over.