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LRs are 260 points max. Serpents, kitted, are 145. Not what I'd call double, but a notable difference

If the Sheild is being shot, the Serpent is nowhere near as survivable as a LR.

If the Sheild is being used defensively, we're comparing:
4xs6ap6r36 TL + 3xs6ap5(psuedorending)r24 TL (likely)
vs

Standard + MM:
2xs9ap2r48 TL + 3xs5ap4r36 TL + 1xs8ap1r24 Melta + POTMS: The Serpent has 1 more shot, but much worse AP and Range all around.

Crusader + MM:
4xs6ap4r24 TL Rending + 6xs4ap5 TL Rapid Fire + 1xs8ap1r24 Melta + POTMS: Lots more shots than the Serpent (11/17 to 7), with the Serpent having higher S on average, but much lower than the MM. Half the Serpent's shooting does outrange this variant, though.

LRR:
4xs6ap4r24 TL Rending + 2x*Flamestorm Cannons* + 1xs8ap1r24 Melta + POTMS: This is a short range tank, but OMFGWTFBBQ is it good at that. Serpent can't even compare.

I suppose it could be argued that some LR builds aren't better than Serpent shooting in all cases, but each LR build is *much* better at shooting what it's made for.

Dakka isn't what LRs are for, though. An LR also has:
-Straight-out immunity to anything s7 and below
-can ONLY be penned by s9+, or with special rules
-4HP means that even when it can be glanced, the glances are a lot less scary
-*Assault Vehicle* (and the Crusader has Frag Assault Launchers). Do not underestimate this!
-Rear armor isn't AV10 (FYI, Serpent Shield cannot reduce pens to rear armor)

A standard Tac squad can eat a Serpent if it gets into melee. While doing so can be hard, threatening to do so can be quite powerful (a threat in being is very useful on the tabletop).

Also, as for the Stalker:
75pts for 4xs7 TL shots:
Each shot:
HIts: 2/3 + 1/3(2/3) = 8/9
Base Glance: on 5 = 1/6
Base Pen: 6+ = 1/6
All Glances (incl Sheild): 1/6 + 1/6(5/6) = 7/36
All Pens: 1/36

So it's not likely to pen, but 7/36 chance to glance per hit. About 1 out of every 4 shots hurts the Serpent (Glance or Pen)

In relation, the Serpent gets (assuming 1+ SL hits):
7 shots s6
Hits: 8/9
Glances: on 6 = 1/6
Pens: 7+ = 0
So a Serpent glances 8 out of 56 shots. That's about .14 glances per shot, far below that of the Stalker.

Long story short, the Stalker eats the Serpent mode-for-model assuming both are within 24" of eachother (with the Stalker eating the Serpent obscenely harder between 24-48).

Add to it that the Stalker is 75 points to the kitted cost of a Serpent of 145.

While a single stalker may not be able to blow up a Serpent in one round, it is a very strong counter for it. For much closer to half the points of a Serpent than a Serpent is to half the points of a LR.

Another reasonable way to take it out is podded marines.
A 5-man +combi(plas) + plas + pod is about as much as a Serpent, and can smoke it's tailpipe easily (4xs7, 1xs6, 4xs4, all on AV10, no Serpent Shield). Even if it can't for some reason (ass to the wall), you could drop them nearby. That way, if the Serpent moves 6 or 12 inches, it should be an easy charge (if you placed correctly), and if it flat-outed, you've already wasted a turn of the Serpent (if it's spam, it'd be multiple). It's only reasonable way to handle that is to shoot them off the table, which means a lot of dakka not shooting at your other threats. If 1 survives, its a threat. If 2 or 3 survive, its a dead Serpent.

The Serpent is OP, but it's not unkillable. Implying that it's near as survivable as a LR is absurd. And clearly wrong, even when you look at weapons the Serpent is strongest against (low-shot-count high-Strength). And without the Shield shooting, it's dakka is manageable.

(For the Necron vehicles, many of theirs can be AV13 skimmers, including one of their DTs)

There is a little problem in your argumentation. You didnt add the jink save to your math:

Assuming you didnt use the turbo-boost, to fire at full bf, but with holofields installed, its just about 1 hit of 8 from the stalker that does something to the serpent. With 4 shots you need 5-6 turns in average to glance out a Serpent with 1/72 Chance for a pen. Really effective... Besides this the Stalker is a valuable HS Slot, while the Serpent is just a DT. So its definetely not a strong Counter for the serpent.

Another thing is, that it makes no sense to compare their ability to take out each other, cause normally you shoot at things with realistic kill-chances. If the Serpent cant kill the Stalker, there is a lot of other stuff that can handle it in the eldar codex. Rock, paper, scissor...

And depending on your opponent, WS are less or more survivable than a LR. Yes, LR are immune to S7, but they dont have a jink and Pens really hurt them, cause most weapons that are capable to pen them have AP2 or AP1. It really hurts to loose a 260 point tank, loose a weapon on it, get it immobelized or just see it doing nothing for a whole turn. And speaking of Pens, it isnt really that hard to get a pen on a LR.

- Eldar/DE ---> Lance Weapons, fast moving Meltas
- Marines ---> Podded Meltas
- Tau ---> Melta-Crisis, Hammerhead

There is also a lot of stuff that can glance them to death so quick, you dont even know it was on the table: Mass Gauss-Weapons, Scarabs, Haywirewyches. Sure they can glance a WS too, but its mobility makes it much harder and do never underestimate the worth of the jink save!

The only drawback of the Serpent is that it has to choose between offense and defense. However its one of the most flexible Units in the game and to good for its costs. Its not unkillable as you said, but you need the right tools to get rid of it and there are not that much in most codices.

Concerning the Necron barges: They loose, their AV13 after the first pen (and as i said, pens arent that hard to archive), are open topped (so they explode really fast), have no holofield option and they arent fast, meaning they cant move more than 6" if they want to fire at full bs. They also cant get away from possible threads as fast as a WS can. Firepower... hm... depends on the enemy and Situation. In 12" 30 shots of gauss can really ruin ones day, but you have to get there alive... Think you cant compare their firepower cause their Targets arent the same.

 ionusx wrote:
Make it a one time use only effect. If you deploy the shield in the game you can't deploy it again. That would fix it, and if you do you sacrifice your shooting phase on your following turn.
and make the serpent take up an elite slot as opposed to a dedicated transport slot.

So then where is our dedicated transport if it takes up an elite slot?

 Xerics wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
Make it a one time use only effect. If you deploy the shield in the game you can't deploy it again. That would fix it, and if you do you sacrifice your shooting phase on your following turn.
and make the serpent take up an elite slot as opposed to a dedicated transport slot.

So then where is our dedicated transport if it takes up an elite slot?

What would be your suggestion to replace our current problem unit?

A balanced Serpent - perhaps one shot and/or 6" range/template shield gun
Falcon (or Falcon variant)
Another vehicle akin to the Venom or the Raider - especially for the currently ruined units like Banshees

Do players never use cover for their tanks? A Stalker should have 5+s at least, and LRs often should too.

Land Raiders that are not in motion to deliver a payload are an expensive bunker, therefore there is always the possibility that the LR will be out of cover if they are being used aggresively.

Redeemers and Crusaders usually always have to move towards the enemy to get any value from their shooting and payload, therefore they will have to spend time outside of cover.

Skimmers that are moving always have cover because of jink.

Bharring wrote:
Do players never use cover for their tanks? A Stalker should have 5+s at least, and LRs often should too.

Yep, and then somebody moves his fast moving AT to an angle where the LR or Stalker looses its cover, while the only way to get around a jink is a weapon with "ignore cover".

And as "nobody" mentioned, it isnt that easy to make effective use of a tank if you want to keep up its cover save. The Serpent dont have to worry about cover, only Thing it have to do is to move less than an Inch to the side.

Serpentshield + Holofield + Jink + AV12 = Extreme Surviveability, there is no way to denie that.

The defensive part of the shield is just as bad as the shooting part in my opinion. It just invalidates heavy AT weapons like Vanquisher cannons completely, and from a fluff/common sense perspective that completely kills the mood. Combine with how it ignores half of all AT fire full stop.

I won't run the maths but it probably takes somewhere in the region of 10 Vanquisher Russes firing simultaneously to kill one Wave Serpent.

The Serpent Shield should be at BEST, a 5+ ignore pen/12'' S7 AP- weapon, but absolutely not with ignores cover. Keep the 4+ jink for all I care, it'd still be a great vehicle relative to the things that are actually balanced. The sheer level of stupidity of its current rules strains my brain.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The defensive part of the shield is just as bad as the shooting part in my opinion. It just invalidates heavy AT weapons like Vanquisher cannons completely, and from a fluff/common sense perspective that completely kills the mood. Combine with how it ignores half of all AT fire full stop.

I won't run the maths but it probably takes somewhere in the region of 10 Vanquisher Russes firing simultaneously to kill one Wave Serpent.

The Serpent Shield should be at BEST, a 5+ ignore pen/12'' S7 AP- weapon, but absolutely not with ignores cover. Keep the 4+ jink for all I care, it'd still be a great vehicle relative to the things that are actually balanced. The sheer level of stupidity of its current rules strains my brain.

Keep in mind that in the world of Hull Points, a Serpent Shield's protection ability can only help it twice. The third time it's out of Hull Points anyways so it doesn't matter.

A Vanquisher is going to have a difficult time killing a Wave Serpent regardless of the Serpent Shield. I'm going off the old Imperial Guard codex... so I don't know if they changed it.

Vanquisher BS 3: 50% hit
Wave Serpent Jink (with holo fields): 25% hit
Armor Penetration roll for a Penetrating Hit (since we're talking about the bonus from the Serpent Shield we don't need to worry about Glances, since the Serpent Shield only protects against Penetrators: 8%
Odds to destroy the Wave Serpent with a 5 or 6 on the Damage Chart (since the Vanquisher is AP2): 2.5%

So yes, 2.5% of the time, the Serpent Shield will prevent you from destroying the Wave Serpent in one hit. That's really not much of a difference. You have better odds just trying to Hull Point it to death anyways.

Murrdox wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The defensive part of the shield is just as bad as the shooting part in my opinion. It just invalidates heavy AT weapons like Vanquisher cannons completely, and from a fluff/common sense perspective that completely kills the mood. Combine with how it ignores half of all AT fire full stop.

I won't run the maths but it probably takes somewhere in the region of 10 Vanquisher Russes firing simultaneously to kill one Wave Serpent.

The Serpent Shield should be at BEST, a 5+ ignore pen/12'' S7 AP- weapon, but absolutely not with ignores cover. Keep the 4+ jink for all I care, it'd still be a great vehicle relative to the things that are actually balanced. The sheer level of stupidity of its current rules strains my brain.

Keep in mind that in the world of Hull Points, a Serpent Shield's protection ability can only help it twice. The third time it's out of Hull Points anyways so it doesn't matter.

A Vanquisher is going to have a difficult time killing a Wave Serpent regardless of the Serpent Shield. I'm going off the old Imperial Guard codex... so I don't know if they changed it.

Vanquisher BS 3: 50% hit
Wave Serpent Jink (with holo fields): 25% hit
Armor Penetration roll for a Penetrating Hit (since we're talking about the bonus from the Serpent Shield we don't need to worry about Glances, since the Serpent Shield only protects against Penetrators: 8%
Odds to destroy the Wave Serpent with a 5 or 6 on the Damage Chart (since the Vanquisher is AP2): 2.5%

So yes, 2.5% of the time, the Serpent Shield will prevent you from destroying the Wave Serpent in one hit. That's really not much of a difference. You have better odds just trying to Hull Point it to death anyways.

Unless I'm going crazy that's a load of gibberish even going by what you said beforehand there, since the odds of destroying the Wave Serpent overall listed there are 2.5% , not the percentage factoring effect the Serpent Shield has on the result with one shot by your maths.

Well, actually that's wrong, because the actual chance is 1.157%. Without that 2+ to penetrate factor, it becomes 8.333%. Or, to put it bluntly, you would be 6 times more likely to kill the Wave Serpent in one shot without the 2+ to ignore penetrating hits.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Well, actually that's wrong, because the actual chance is 1.157%. Without that 2+ to penetrate factor, it becomes 8.333%. Or, to put it bluntly, you would be 6 times more likely to kill the Wave Serpent in one shot without the 2+ to ignore penetrating hits.

Even if my math was lazy and not 100% accurate while drinking my coffee this morning, you still pretty much demonstrated my point. Sure, you can say it's SIX TIMES more likely without the Sepent Shield, but it'd be more accurate to say it's 7% more likely... which is still pretty small. So it's still safe to say the Serpent Shield only comes into effect less than 10% of the time you fire at a Wave Serpent with your tank of choice in this example. Meaning that my original point stands... against a Wave Serpent a Vanquisher has a really low chance of doing anything, even without considering the Serpent Shield. You're better off trying to Hull Point it.

And what are the odds of the Vanqisher killing the same number of points of Rhinos in one shot? A hell of a lot lower!

The Serpent is OP,

The important things is pretty much everyone agrees with this - we just need to find some agreement on fixing it (and ideally the other broken units).............

Bharring wrote:
And what are the odds of the Vanqisher killing the same number of points of Rhinos in one shot? A hell of a lot lower!

Uhhh are you serious? Considering the Rhino is 35 points and the Wave Serpent is 145, I'd certainly hope so!

 Mr Morden wrote:

The Serpent is OP,

The important things is pretty much everyone agrees with this - we just need to find some agreement on fixing it (and ideally the other broken units).............

Personally I find the defensive aspect fine. I can't begrudge a transport that can protect its cargo across the table.


My pet suggestion is this: The range on the Serpent Shield goes down to somewhere in the 6-12" range, however it gains the rule Guided Strike.

Guided Strike: Units that were aboard this transport and disembarked this turn may assault a unit/model targeted by this weapon as though the vehicle has the Assault Vehicle rule.


It nerfs the range aspect of the shield, and gives the Eldar player something back to allow their assault units a chance to get into melee without having to stand out in the open for a turn first.

nobody wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

The Serpent is OP,

The important things is pretty much everyone agrees with this - we just need to find some agreement on fixing it (and ideally the other broken units).............

Personally I find the defensive aspect fine. I can't begrudge a transport that can protect its cargo across the table.


My pet suggestion is this: The range on the Serpent Shield goes down to somewhere in the 6-12" range, however it gains the rule Guided Strike.

Guided Strike: Units that were aboard this transport and disembarked this turn may assault a unit/model targeted by this weapon as though the vehicle has the Assault Vehicle rule.


It nerfs the range aspect of the shield, and gives the Eldar player something back to allow their assault units a chance to get into melee without having to stand out in the open for a turn first.

We shouldn't have relatively invulnerable transports that require your opponent to put 2-3/4 of his AT firepower towards just to stand an average chance of killing one, period. Not even for its points cost.

Just as with the Riptide, there's very little satisfaction in chipping away at something that's obscenely hard to kill yet not even of a massive cost.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

We shouldn't have relatively invulnerable transports that require your opponent to put 2-3/4 of his AT firepower towards just to stand an average chance of killing one, period. Not even for its points cost.

Just as with the Riptide, there's very little satisfaction in chipping away at something that's obscenely hard to kill yet not even of a massive cost.

You'll have to forgive me, I picked up Eldar in 6th Edition with their new codex. Playing against them in 5th our only Eldar player used Footdar. But from what I remember, weren't Holofields even MORE disgusting in the previous edition than in 5th? I don't think Eldar vehicles being insanely difficult to kill is anything new in the 40k universe. That's how they've always been. Can someone with more background info provide details? Then on top of holofields, Eldar had Spirit Stones (they still do just nobody takes them anymore because of Hull Points) which let them ignore Shaken and Stunned results. So in 5th Edition, even when you did hit an Eldar tank, chances were you did nothing at all, not even a Hull Point.

Murrdox wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

We shouldn't have relatively invulnerable transports that require your opponent to put 2-3/4 of his AT firepower towards just to stand an average chance of killing one, period. Not even for its points cost.

Just as with the Riptide, there's very little satisfaction in chipping away at something that's obscenely hard to kill yet not even of a massive cost.

You'll have to forgive me, I picked up Eldar in 6th Edition with their new codex. Playing against them in 5th our only Eldar player used Footdar. But from what I remember, weren't Holofields even MORE disgusting in the previous edition than in 5th? I don't think Eldar vehicles being insanely difficult to kill is anything new in the 40k universe. That's how they've always been.

And they broke 4th edition too.

Land Raider
Hell Turkey
Storm Raven
Ironclad Dread
Ven Dread
Valkrye
Dreadknight
Riptide
Tervigon
Swarmy
Almost anything Nurgle
Any Greater Demon
Monolit

All of them are more resilient than a Serpent at range, and much less vulnerable to being charged.

Predators and Necron skimmers are in the same boat as the Serpent for survivability.

Jink is really good, but it's no better than a terrain save, so should only be situationally better. Holofields make it better, but a 4+ isn't that much better than a 5+.

Bharring wrote:


Land Raider - Nearly double as expensive as the WS, big target, half as mobile and no jink. Easier to Pen with the right weapons. Only a DT for Termies
Hell Turkey - Another Unit that is too good for its costs
Storm Raven - 40-50% more expensive and its main protection is being a flyer. Doesnt start on the table and if its shot down everything inside is screwed.
Ironclad Dread - while being nearly as expensive as a full equuipped WS AV13 is the best Thing about it
Riptide - another broken unit
Tervigon - are you kidding? All you need is some AP3 with S6+ or a weapon with rending


All of them are more resilient than a Serpent at range, and much less vulnerable to being charged.

Predators and Necron skimmers are in the same boat as the Serpent for survivability. - that may be rigth, if there were only glancing hits. if it Comes to pens... Most Necron Skimmers are open topped. Predators have no jink and arent as mobile. Mobility is also some Kind of defense

Jink is really good, but it's no better than a terrain save, so should only be situationally better. Holofields make it better, but a 4+ isn't that much better than a 5+.

- Jink is much better than a terrain save... No dangerous Terrain test to get cover, no need to move a longer way just to get some cover...

Bharring wrote:
Land Raider
Hell Turkey
Storm Raven
Ironclad Dread
Ven Dread
Valkrye
Dreadknight
Riptide
Tervigon
Swarmy
Almost anything Nurgle
Any Greater Demon
Monolit

All of them are more resilient than a Serpent at range, and much less vulnerable to being charged.

Predators and Necron skimmers are in the same boat as the Serpent for survivability.

Jink is really good, but it's no better than a terrain save, so should only be situationally better. Holofields make it better, but a 4+ isn't that much better than a 5+.

All of the MCs (and the Nurgle stuff) listed are vulnerable to poisoned weapons (see also: Dark Eldar). In addition, the only ones that can actually choose to avoid combat normally are the Riptide and Dreadknight. Everything else is going to want to get stuck in as soon as possible or is slow enough to be caught because they are moving 6" a turn while whatever is chasing them is moving 6" plus run until they are in charge range (and that's if they are just infantry!).

As for the land vehicles (Land Raider and Monolith), the only ranged weapons that they are less vulnerable to are Str 6-7 non-Melta weapons. Compare landing a drop pod with 5 sternguard equipped with combi-meltas on their side arc to the Wave Serpent, and I'll bet that both the Monolith and Land Raider will evaporate while the Wave Serpent zips off to avoid the charge next turn.

On the charge they may be more resilient, however that's balanced by the fact that they can actually be caught. They'll ignore the krak grenades sure, but if somebody is charging them he's got meltabombs, haywire grenades, or Smash to make sure they can do the job.

As for the Dreadnoughts listed that's laughable, The Ironclad has a little more armor in the front arc, however they are still slow enough to be caught by a determined assaulter, and have the same AV 12 on the sides (and front for the venerable) without the ability to force glances or the guaranteed cover.

Predators are far from as resilient as the Serpent. For one thing they don't downgrade Penetrating hits to Glancing. For another, their side armor is paper thin AV 11, and getting a side shot on them is incredibly easy unless terrain is in your favor. As for Necron Skimmers, the only one that really sees play is the Annihilation Barge, and that thing is a steal at the pricepoint it's at.

The aircraft listed all have to put themselves at risk of being intercepted by Str 7 weapons (Tau eat them all for lunch, there's a reason Hellturkeys are a splash choice and not a main choice these days), in addition all of the flyers are spending less time on the board (therefore opening themselves up to not doing as much), or are spending time circling and therefore giving back arc shots. Obviously they are completely immune to being charged unless they hover so you have a point on them being more immune to being charged.

Going from a 5+ save to a 4+ is pretty major, it's approximately a 27% swing in save effectiveness (33% - 50%)

You know you can get terrain saves without having to go 'into' it?

still comes down to:

The Wave Serpent is OP

The important things is pretty much everyone agrees with this - we just need to find some agreement on fixing it (and ideally the other broken units).............

Change the number of hits it [serpent shield on shooting mode] causes down to D3+1.

 Daba wrote:
You know you can get terrain saves without having to go 'into' it?

I know, but they can be negated by mobile Units who can get a free field of view on the target, while a jink is almost alwasy "on".

we just need to find some agreement on fixing it

Sadly this will never happen, cause there is always someone who disagrees. We need to find some ideas that could work and somebody who says "This is it!". The latter one should be GWs job.

 Daba wrote:
Change the number of hits it [serpent shield on shooting mode] causes down to D3+1.

Thats virtually no change and IMO certianly nowhere near enough

Way 1: One shot only, remove the defense completely after the shot.
Way 2: Range scaled down to 12" and no ignore cover
Way 3: Firing the Serpent Shield Needs every amount of energy and the full concentration of the Pilot. Therefore it cant fire any other weapon in the same turn (so no more twin-linking on the shield)

People are still complaining about both the survivability and the dakka that serpents posses. While it is possible for a serpent to use both in a game, doing so generally lessens their threat to the opponent.

I don't feel like quoting at the moment, but you really need to stop comparing units without taking consideration of its full price. A serpent is minimum 200 points to field.

Serpents do not get to just ignore pens all together, they still take the hull point! So they die just like any vehicle that gets lit up. If they are ignoring pens instead of firing that means they are not killing you for at least 20% of the game unless they are going second, and they only get to do it twice before they die anyway. The defensive qualities of the serpent are over rated. At what point in 6th did we go back to caring about pens?

My solution to the serpent is simple. No one apparently noticed it earlier. Remove the Ignores Cover from the shield's weapon profile. It makes little sense for it to be there and it would balance out the vehicle without over nerfing it. At that point you have a AV12 4/5+ vehicle that can move 12" and fire 2 weapons at full bs, which is ~8 shots a turn. A little high for a transport but you're also paying 200 points for it at minimum and comparing that to the other guns around it isn't that bad. ie misslesides, twin linked tesla, splintercannons, half the ig guns, etc Every army has their cost effective options for blowing people up, or at least the new books do.

You'll see about as much consensus on this thread on how to fix the Wave Serpent as you will in your average "Wish List" thread for a new codex or rules edition.

Personally, for me if the Serpent Shield was changed to 1-shot or 12" I'd feel at least a 15 point reduction in the cost of the Wave Serpent would be appropriate. I'm not a fan of either of these options personally, but other people seem to love them. I don't like 1-shot weapons in 40k period, and putting a 12" range on the Serpent Shield is almost the same thing as taking it away entirely. It'll get used about as often as Tank Shocking.

My preferred fix options would be:

1) Range reduced to 36". I think this is a perfectly reasonable fix. It means the Wave Serpent can't fire the Serpent Shield with impunity while out of weapons range of all the opponent's army.
2) Shield must roll each turn after it is fired to recharge. Shield only becomes available next turn on a 4+. Defensive bonuses are still lost as long as the shield is down. I could also see this as being simplified to an "every other turn" use.
3) Wave Serpent comes with the defensive Serpent Shield stock. The ability to fire the Serpent Shield comes as a 20 point upgrade. 20 points is almost expensive as a D-Cannon, so I believe this point cost would be more than balancing.

Just my 2-cents.

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Way 1: One shot only, remove the defense completely after the shot.
Way 2: Range scaled down to 12" and no ignore cover
Way 3: Firing the Serpent Shield Needs every amount of energy and the full concentration of the Pilot. Therefore it cant fire any other weapon in the same turn (so no more twin-linking on the shield)

I have to respond to this because its so absurd. The solutions you people keep dreaming up are funny. At this point why don't you just remove the dam weapon. No commander in his right mind is going to drive up into assault range to use an ineffective weapon. Its like you think that if you come up with something that allows it to fire its not over nerfing it, but then your solution would be like removing it just the same since you will no longer have to deal with it.

If I can't have a decent fire base in my troop slots Ill just take min squads of bikes and keep them in reserve forever. So much fun.